stunting

[Ed Burkot]

After about a 30 year hiatus from control line flying (though always involved with RC flying), I returned to my roots and starting flying C/L again.  Level flight and wingovers were fine, but I got into trouble when I tried to do a loop.  The Ringmaster went up and then didn't really want to complete the loop, resulting in a re-kitting of the airplane.  After two of these incidents, I got to thinking about the handle position and the airplane attitude.  I think I've got it figured out.  I've been doing all of my loop movement by keeping my arm in the same outstreched position (parallel to the ground) and moving only my wrist.  I believe this would cause the Ringmaster to go up, but then the elevator would go neutral relative to the airplane.  So I shoulld move the entire arm to keep it pointed at the airplane, right?  Would this keep the elevator up in relation to the airplane?

It makes sense to me now that I think about it, but in all of the articles and manuals I've read about flying C/L, I've never come across anyplace that explains this.  The 'how-to's say to move the arm from the shoulder and not just the wrist, but doesn't say why, so I always figured it was to help keep from over-controlling the airplane.

Does this make sense?  Is this precisely why we should move our arm from the shoulder and keep the arm pointing at the airplane?

[GGeezer]

Ed,
Your elbow, wrist and airplane should be on the same straight line.
Several years ago, I too started C/L flying again after 50 years. I bought into the philosophy of raising and lowering your whole arm in order to not over control. This worked fine until I started flying inverted. After flying into the ground a number of times, I realized that when the plane started to descend inverted, I was instinctively raising my arm and making the problem worse. It took some time to retrain myself. I now follow the plane's motion by mostly bending my elbow.
Welcome back.
Orv.

[Howard Rush]

Yes, this is a problem, and I think you have the right solution.  Follow the airplane with your arm.  It will become natural after awhile, but be sure to remember to follow with your arm whenever you try a new trick, particularly outside loops.  

How's the new circle coming?

[John Cralley]

Ringmasters have such a "barn door" elevator that over control can cause a stall and a pancake at the bottom of a loop. Elevator throw should be limited to 20 degrees or so which will help prevent over control (don't ask how I know this). Also as stated above following the plane with your arm will help.

John

[Ed Burkot]

Howard:

How's the new circle coming?  Pardon??!??

[Howard Rush]

Sorry.  John Castle was discussing the same sort of thing, but for level flight, in an adjacent post.  John is from McMinnville, OR, where they're building a new flying circle.  Somehow I got the two posts mixed up. 

[FLOYD CARTER]

I think it works best if you "lead" the plane with your arm.  This seems to prevent over-controlling if the wrist is kept stiff, and the straight arm "pulls" the plane in the direction you want.  Well, it seems to work for me.   Floyd

[Ward Van Duzer]

A second issue here might be push rod flex. Typically as explained here the ring has too much elevator movement, which as the plane speeds up on the down stroke of the loop may cause the push rod to bend under the stress thereby not giving full control. Make sure you have a push rod guide about mid fuselage to prevent the wire from flexing.

W.

[Garf]

The best cure for this is a fiberglass or carbon fiber pushrod.

[Bill Heher]

 As previously stated Ringmaster are known for having way more elevator travel than needed when original ply or and short control horn is used, resulting in the infamous Figure 9 when doing a tight inside loop. Done it many times.

Now I always use a large R/C T-base horn if I have one, slows the controls down and adds leverage. A good no friction push rod support or carbon fiber pushrod eliminates flex, these 2 simple changes make the plane fly much smoother. Narrowed up line spacing at the handle helped me too.

As you get back in the groove you will loosen up a bit and start flowing with the plane, instead of lagging behind it and reacting / overcontrolling. A nice thing about Ringmasters ( besides being simple and tough) is that they fly a bit better a little faster than a thicker winged / larger stunt model.
When you get a plane that flys on the wing a bit more at a bit higher lap times, things seem to slow down and you get more confident. You still smash it up sooner or later but the flying just keep getting better.

[Steve Thomas]

Hi Ed,

Similar experience to yours - I came back to CL after 25 years, and almost rekitted a model a couple of times doing loops.  The model in question had a fairly thin wing and forward CG, so it didn't turn all that tight and needed to fly quite fast. 

The first thing I was doing wrong was to apply a large elevator deflection and expect the model to just fly round in a nice circle - ignoring the fact that gravity would make my 'perfect' circle end up quite a bit lower than it started. 

The second error was that I was simply trying to fly my loops too tight, beyond what could comfortably be achieved with that particular model.

The result of this was a couple of rather scary pullouts - with the model mushing and losing line tension, just to add to the fun.  I was also thrown in at the deep end when it came to learning inverted flight, when on a couple of occasions I realised a loop was never going to work, and aborted it halfway through....

The solution for me was to open the first half of the loop right up, with quite a slack pullup, aiming for the model to top-out at about 60 ^o elevation.  This left plenty of room to tighten up the second half as needed.  Once I was comfortable with that, I could work on making my loops smaller and rounder.

Steve

[john e. holliday]

One thing people forget is the bellcrank.  How much movement do you have.  Place the pushrod as close to the pivot point as you can get it.  I think most kits back in the day put the pushrod out a ways from the pivot point.  Also give more leverage. 

[Jim Thomerson]

Something fun to do that teaches about flying through the loop rather than just giving some up control and hoping is to fly really big loops between five feet and top of the circle.  It is not as easy as you would think.