stunt plane suggestion for a .15?

[Target]

I have a Thunder Tiger .15 collecting dust, and I thought it'd be nice to build something to get it in the air. It's an Asian engine, not a lighter weight Cox, Novell, or Fox. Weights 3.9 oz before muffler, plug, and venture/needle.
Prefer a profile design, flapless, and actually a kit would be nice.

But as long as it's quick build, short kit or even plans is ok. I could vacuum bag a foam/carbon wing for it if needed.
I want something that flies GREAT, with proper tuning.
Thanks in advance.

Was wondering about the small Magician or Shark, or ?

HNY,
Chris

[rustler]

Maybe not the first design which comes to mind, but Blue Pants by Henri Stouffs (Belgium) is a bit of an eye opener.
Listed in some places as the 1954 World Champion, powered by a 2.5cc E.D. Racer.
Plans easily available, and a kit from Belair Kits in England.
The Racer has a superb pedigree, having won World Champs in Stunt and Speed, and been the engine of choice in 2.5cc T/R, until superseded by the Oliver Tiger. Quality deteriorated over time, the magnesium case ones are usually a safe bet. They were available in glow, diesel, and ign. format.

[Brett Buck]

I have a .15 collecting dust, and I thought it'd be nice to build something to get it in the air. Can't remember what make it is, but it's an Asian engine, not a lighter weight Cox, Novell, or Fox.
Prefer a profile design, and actually a kit would be nice, but as long as it's quick build, short kit or even plans is ok.
I want something that flies GREAT, with proper tuning.
Thanks in advance.
Was wondering about the small Magician or Shark.

  Depends on which 15. For a OS baffle piston 15 (Max III or similar), the Shark 15 would be my first choice (and was - I had 4-5 of them, all with the OS20 or 25-S).

     For a 15FP or similar, a Ringmaster or something about that size is right. Not a Ringmaster Jr. , a regular Ringmaster for a 35. A problem is that there aren't many very good airplanes in the necessary size range (320-350 square inches). A Flite Streak scaled down a little bit would work, but not the Junior Flite Streak - too small.

      Brett

[Target]

Even a (gasp) foam winged combat based plane would be ok with me. Just to muddy waters more.
Priorities-
1. Flies well, similar to a larger plane.
2. Easy/quick build.
3. Profile preferred.
4. Cost is of little consequence.

[Dennis Moritz]

Peacemaker profile. Barry Baxter lists it under combat planes. You would be building from plans. Different from the full fuselage plane sold by Brodak. It has a 36" wing. Similar design to Flite Streak, which has a 42" wing. Looks like a model in between a full size Flite Streak and a Flite Streak jr. Depends on what you want to do. I've built a few jr Flite Streaks powered by FP15s. They were flown with engines set to scream max power. Great fun. All needed at least a half ounce in the tail to balance and make turn. I also had a few powered jr. Streaks with Enya 19s, baffle piston engine. Sluggish in turns. Heavy engine needed too much tail weight. These days I'm looking to make one of these with an Enya 09 or FP10. No weight in the rear. I think will be a better balanced plane. The Peacemaker profile would probably be in balance with a either a 15 flat top or baffle piston engine. I'd build it light.

[eric rule]

Take a serious look at Ron Burn's P51-15. This is a really great performing model (Larry Renger, who flies Advanced, scored a 531 with it at last years Golden State Championship). It can be powered by any .15 glow or even a .15 size electric motor.

[Tim Wescott]

Chris, since the engine type matters so much, can you post a picture?  If it's an old baffle-piston engine then an Akromaster should be good.  If it's a new Schrnuerle-ported engine, then what Brett said.

[Mike Griffin]

Take a serious look at Ron Burn's P51-15. This is a really great performing model (Larry Renger, who flies Advanced, scored a 531 with it at last years Golden State Championship). It can be powered by any .15 glow or even a .15 size electric motor.

I am building my second one of these.  Great little model and flies really well.  Both of mine are/were electric.

Mike

[Target]

I'll check which engine I have when I get home next.
Thanks gents.

[Steve Helmick]

The P-51 Eric mentioned would sure be worth a look on the RSM website, depending on what .15 you've got.  Steve

[wwwarbird]

 I'll wager that you will not find a better flying, more capable .15 size stunt design than the Challenger .15 designed by Keith Sandberg. Plans and laser cut rib sets are available from Walter Umland here on the forum.

 http://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/challenger-15-done-and-rtf/

[Target]

Thanks all, and thanks Wayne. This looks ideal, I like that it's flapless. I can vacuum bag a composite wing for it if I get the urge.
Regards,
Chris

[louie klein]

I have a 15 Challenger and this plane flies great! .I have a Fox 15 on it with no problems. An expert friend of mine put it through the whole pattern---Cool!--Fun, Louie

[Chuck_Smith]

I have a .15 collecting dust, and I thought it'd be nice to build something to get it in the air. Can't remember what make it is, but it's an Asian engine, not a lighter weight Cox, Novell, or Fox.
Prefer a profile design, and actually a kit would be nice, but as long as it's quick build, short kit or even plans is ok.
I want something that flies GREAT, with proper tuning.
Thanks in advance.
Was wondering about the small Magician or Shark.
HNY,
Chris

Many years ago I built a Jr. Magician with an OS .15. It was a great flying airplane. Easily flew the pattern on 52' lines. I'd take it on vacations since it was small and portable. Then I put a .36 on it and used it as a combat ship.

Chuck

[Target]

I was considering the .15 magician as well, but I like the tail moment on the challenger...

[wwwarbird]

I can vacuum bag a composite wing for it if I get the urge.

 Wow, that would be some serious overkill for a .15 size model. If you do do it, make sure and give us some info. 

[Target]

I have a butt load of carbon spread tow fabric (the big checker board looking fabric) and 3/4oz glass, and mgs epoxy from Germany. No reason not to do a composite wing, and without flaps would make it not need wood on the TE at all. Pretty simple layup, especially if I want squared wing tips for a adjustable lead out...
And no stinking servo pockets to grind out!
I have wanted to do one for a while. Figured it might be safer on a smaller wing to start with. Probably would do a foam stab also, but might have to test a skin hinge, for simplicity.
R,
Chris

[Pat Chewning]

Sig Akromaster is a good kit and flies well on an OS LA 15.   The recommendation is to make the wing slightly longer by not cutting the LE, TE, and spars -- leave them full length.

I have 2 of these and they fly pretty well with the OS LA 15

[Target]

Thanks Pat!

[TigreST]

How bout a Brodak "Cub". Maybe a little more involved then a profile build and yes it's got flaps (I guess you could glue them at 0/0). Bob Z's pictures attached.  A bit more chat on it here:

http://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/new-offering-from-brodak/

[Skip Chernoff]

Thanks for the info on the Brodak Cub. That sure is a fine looking model.

[Target]

I had actually looked at the Cub a long while ago.
I read where John Brodak or one of his "team pilots" said it should be powered with a .20-.25, actually. Plus, it really is more than I would like to build right at the moment. If I were to build a full fuselage plane, it would be-
1. Full sized, 550 sq inches or larger.
2. Electric powered.

I've sort of decided that I want to go with glow for profiles, and E-power for full fuselages. I can't really explain why, it just makes the most sense to me for some reason.

Thank you for all the suggestions. The Cub is definitely on the radar, but it would probably be e-powered.

R,
Chris

[TigreST]

Interesting.  I've got a pair of Cubs and opted for the Brodak .25 as a possible power upgrade.

[Target]

Did you fly one on a .15?
BTW, your link links back to this thread....

[TigreST]

Nope have not built either one as yet.  The power choice was some what inspired by an Ozzy that put a .60 in Nobler some years back.   I'll fix the link in a bit.

[TigreST]

The link is fixed (above).  The one issue, as ever, with IC power "how much fuel can you carry to feed the motor.  This is mentioned in the link regarding .25 power in the Cub.  a custom tank may be the order of the day. I have not done any engineering toward making the .25 work.  Brodak .15's wait in the wings as back up power choice. 

[Target]

Thanks for fixing the link, Tony.

UPDATE-
The engine that I have is a NIB Thunder Tiger .15V, it weights 3.9oz without muffler, glow plug, or carb/venturi.
The supplied muffler is pretty heavy, as it is 1.2oz. I could probably go with a tongue muffler and delrin venturi to come in about 4.5oz.  

Happy New Year, all.

I'm likely to either get the challenger kit, or maybe just plans and make a composite wing and tail, and profile fuse.
Alternately, I could think about the Cub wing with a profile fuse.

Regards,
Chris

[Steve Scott]

Shame the U-Key series is no longer available.  I had one in each of the 3 sizes they offered - 15, 35 and 40.  The 15 size was a hoot to fly.  I flew it with an FP 15 and a Norvel 15.

Keith Sandberg's Challenger design is a good bet.

My first 'stunt' model was the Top Flite 15 Flite Streak with a baffle Fox 15X and a simple silkspan/dope covering.  Learned inverted flight with that combo.  The Asian schneurle 15s are a bit heavy for most of the early designs meant for the baffle (non-schneurle) motors.

[Target]

  Depends on which 15. For a OS baffle piston 15 (Max III or similar), the Shark 15 would be my first choice (and was - I had 4-5 of them, all with the OS20 or 25-S).

     For a 15FP or similar, a Ringmaster or something about that size is right. Not a Ringmaster Jr. , a regular Ringmaster for a 35. A problem is that there aren't many very good airplanes in the necessary size range (320-350 square inches). A Flite Streak scaled down a little bit would work, but not the Junior Flite Streak - too small.

      Brett

So, Brett, with the engine being a NIB Thunder Tiger .15, would you still recommend the wing area be in the range of 320-350 sq. inches?

I could always scratch build my own, something like a Primary Force (with a longish tail moment) but scaled down? Any design rules I will need to observe for the smaller planes?

Thanks and Happy New Year.

Chris

[john e. holliday]

The Brodak site says .15 - .19 for the Cub.   Kit CLB-91.

Now go read the post,  New  Offering from Brodak.   

[Target]

I have read that thread already....
Thanks John! And Happy New Year.

[Target]

Take a serious look at Ron Burn's P51-15. This is a really great performing model (Larry Renger, who flies Advanced, scored a 531 with it at last years Golden State Championship). It can be powered by any .15 glow or even a .15 size electric motor.

I'll look at Larry's yellow p51 the next time we are all at Whittier...

Do you know if the Delrin venturi you offer at rsm for a "Magnum .15 will fit my Thunder Tiger .15? Does it come with a nva? What size is the bore? No rush on info Eric. Happy New Year!
Kind Regards,
Chris

[Brett Buck]

So, Brett, with the engine being a NIB Thunder Tiger .15, would you still recommend the wing area be in the range of 320-350 sq. inches?

   Unfortunately, I don't know, since I haven't ever seen one run. I assume that it is more powerful than ancient baffle-piston engines like the Fox or the OS Max III, but that is an assumption.

   350 square inches should yield a flyable model in any case, and if you have to, you can put a 15FP in there instead.

    Brett

[Target]

Thanks Brett.
As far as I can tell, the tt 15 is schnurle ported, not a baffle engine. I assume it should run with more power than a Fox.
I'll let you know when I find out.
HNY,
Chris

[TigreST]

Just thought I add a few more pictures to this thread.  Here's a bit of a photo camparison of three of the motors mentioned here.  

Thunder Tigre Pro .15/ABC R/C

Brodak .15 c/l

Brodak .25 c/l


FWIW,

 

[Target]

Thanks Tony.
I believe my tt is the non ball bearing, "GP" version. Just glanced at it the other day. I've been spending the holidays with the new squeeze. She's back to work tomorrow, me Tuesday.
I'll double check tomorrow. Maybe even post a picture.
Regards,
Chris

[Trostle]

deleted

[Target]

deleted

Unless it was a post reply to the wrong thread, please add your thoughts Keith!
Happy New Year.

Regards,
Chris

[Trostle]

Unless it was a post reply to the wrong thread, please add your thoughts Keith!
Happy New Year.

Regards,
Chris

OK,  I just commented that the 296 sq in listed for the Brodak Cub seemed a bit small for a .15.  A good 1/2A stunt ship with an .049 will have 200 to 215 sq in and could be more.  However, I am sure the Cub with a light .15 can be a capable and enjoyable airplane.  It would seem a good .09 like a Cox Medallion would be a better fit.  I am not casting aspersions on the Brodak Cub. 

Keith

[Target]

Thanks Keith.
So then you are of the similar opinion to Brett that 320-350 squares is a more appropriate area for a .15 sized stunter?
And, care to share any pearls of wisdom on wing profile (airfoil) and aspect ration for these smaller sized stunt models?
If I am going to scratch build something, I would like it to be a decent flier.
Still considering the Challenger plans built, with a composite wing/horizontal/fuse, or something close to that one.

R,
Chris

[Tim Wescott]

In the absence of a lot of solid data on what makes a good 15-sized plane, I suspect that you should just start by scaling down a good "40-sized" plane until it has 350 square inches of area -- for example, make an 80% scale Fancherized Twister (that gives 325 squares, but 80% is a rounder number than 82.8%).  I wouldn't bother with flaps -- lightness is going to be goodness in this case, and flaps do add weight.

And -- don't be surprised if you don't end up building another one.  About once every third time I make an original design that just "flies off the board".  Sometimes two iterations is all it takes to find nirvana, sometimes it takes five or six.

[Air Ministry .]

INDEED .

Looking at the 1/2 a TD etc Versions of the Spectrum , mirage , pinto etc etc , if you haf One Metre Wood There , Youd be under way - Just Add Tips - for a .15 size sleek Ace Aeroplane .

A Clunkers a differant story . Plenty of atrocious thin wing junk in English Magazines Past . Most Thin Winged ' awkward ' THINGS .

A ' BASIC ' ship might be 3 foot ( sheet/ strip ) plus tips . 8 in chord , or Avg Chord . Anything much under that and its going to be a stone .





This Things Minimilist Weight , Maximalist Area , Maybe . Put the end bits so it looks like Lucille Ball .   Um , whatever you like .


Has a Sensable Rib / Airfoil .

A Oriental Rib ( 8 in ) & 36 in sheeted Le + tips , so its 40 or 44 o/a , and the notorious H C Queck mustang , FW 190 , P 40 & Zero , if real light
should do , like a slightly downzized miss BJ .











Scale to 36 in ' plank ' and leave inner flap te sq 2 Fuse .

i vill hunt for zer Queck drgs .

TWO .15s and a Oriental Wing , and it would be excellent . on hipocket . free download full size .

[Air Ministry .]

This thing dates back to near the Great War . So is OTS legal . Has a THICK wing . Olver Tiger 2.5 cc .   MENTIONS ' STUNT ' in the Heading , despite no wheel . How do you get around that .



Is on Hipocket , so liberates Full Size , Free .

Apparently Some Things ARNT what they Used to Be .  1957 .

[Air Ministry .]

oops. something was playing up . see my first pic. parrently theres two . flapped & un . f .



Need a rework to get top line .

Oor the Winner of the 1954 World Champs . Judges arnt what they used to be. Theyve BANNED drop of Undecarrages !




download on outerzone  .

[Trostle]

\
(Clip)

About once every third time I make an original design that just "flies off the board". 

(Clip)

It is impossible to have an airplane model that just "flies off the board."  There was a finite number of that type of airplane models in the universe and they were all used up by 1952.

(That is why many fly in the Old Time Stunt event.  They are still looking for some remnant of those airplanes.  At least that is a partial explanation of how I understand things.)

Keith

[TigreST]

Nope have not built either one as yet.  The power choice was some what inspired by an Ozzy that put a .60 in Nobler some years back.   I'll fix the link in a bit.

Here it is.   PJ Rowland did a Gieseke Nobler with the Stalker 61 for power.  




Yeah, picked up on this in the other Nobler thread:

http://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/new-offering-from-brodak/

And here's a bit of info on his build:

http://stunthanger.com/smf/classic-planes/new-gieseke-nobler-(-now-with-finished-pics-)/

Yesterday I opened the box on the Brodak Cub to have another look.  What prompted this was Keiths info about the wing area and wing span. There are different numbers depending on where you look. The kit box info states 40" span and 297sq/in area.  The plans measure out to around 36 3/4" span or so and a rough calc of 292sq/in. (which does not take into account the area covered by the fuselage).  I'm not sure but I think it was mentioned you might sqeeze a few more sq/in's out of it if you do not trim the LE, TE and spars and simple adjust the rib spacing.  I expect it would not be difficult to simply replace the span-wise runs of wood with longer and add a rib or two and maintain the original space I guess?   When looking at the plans it appears that the 15. will be enough (fits very well in the fuselage, based on the side view).  But I still wonder how the .25 might work if one tweaked the wing area a bit. Hmm very interesting.

Sorry about the thread jacking.

[Tim Wescott]

It is impossible to have an airplane model that just "flies off the board."  There was a finite number of that type of airplane models in the universe and they were all used up by 1952.

Well, clearly not in my experience!  By "flies off the board" I mean an airplane that needs no major modification and whose trim is good enough on the first flight that you know that will be true.  Granted, it happens more often with sport planes where the performance bar is lower, but it does happen to me.

[TigreST]

Back in the day "Flys of the board" we took to mean anything that survives the maiden flight, ha ha.  Everything after that is gravy  As a kid our expectations were very low and little to nothing was done to trim out a plane as we did not really know how, other than c.g. concerns.  Sport flying only of course.

[Tim Wescott]

Hey Chris!  You are going to share what you build with us, yes?  Whether it flies off the board, or comes off the field on a board?

[John Rist]

I have a Ringmaster 307 by Pat Johnston that flies great on a 15.  I don't know if the kit is still available.  The is one of Pat's looks like a Ringmaster but is Ringmaster in looks only.  It has a different airfoil ets and flies as good as any modern airplane.  A little discision on Brotherhood of the ring:

http://www.brotherhoodofthering.info/mbbs22/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=2298&posts=10&highlight=Ringmaster%20307&highlightmode=1#M28834

It's a quick build, a great flyer, and it qualifies for the Ringmaster Fly-A-Thon

PS Pats eMail is    patsplans@yahoo.com