Stunt judging and learning to fly the pattern

[Curtis Shipp]

I just downloaded a copy of the stunt judging book from the pampa website. In the book I found a lot of useful info on how a pattern should be flown. Now that I am reading this book I will try and fly what the judges are looking for and will have a better understanding of a good pattern. For anybody trying to move up you should read this book. It is full of great info for us bottom feeders. It could also lead to you judging at a contest.

[Allen Brickhaus]

Great idea.

Allen Brickhaus

[bill mazzoni]

Hi Curtis,
  Your Supertigre G21-46 was shipped. 
  Bill

[Steve Helmick]

I just downloaded a copy of the stunt judging book from the pampa website. In the book I found a lot of useful info on how a pattern should be flown. Now that I am reading this book I will try and fly what the judges are looking for and will have a better understanding of a good pattern. For anybody trying to move up you should read this book. It is full of great info for us bottom feeders. It could also lead to you judging at a contest.

Curtis, is this what we're looking for? I wasn't sure, and am still not.  Steve

http://www.control-line.org/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=34

[Curtis Shipp]

This is the link to the judging hand book. Print it out and read. A real eye opener for me.

http://www.control-line.org/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/Judge%20training%20manual.pdf

[Howard Rush]

Thanks, Curtis.  I'm too selfish to do much judging, but I sure learned a lot from the little I did: for example, that level flight after you take off actually counts, and you might not get full credit for a nice wingover if you don't start it in front of the judges.   

[Brett Buck]

This is the link to the judging hand book. Print it out and read. A real eye opener for me.

http://www.control-line.org/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/Judge%20training%20manual.pdf

   Both of those documents are excellent, and I highly recommend that EVERYBODY who wants to fly in competition read them both and understand them. The first one seems to have been drawn from the version of the judges guide written mostly by Bob Baron. I pretty much use this as my reference, and note that it places a lot of emphasis on the maneuver *size*. This is what separates the top competitors in big contests from the pack. Size it typically what hangs up pretty good advanced and expert fliers where they are mired as perpetual also-rans. And, frankly, separates national-quality judges from the pack as well.

   The second one is at least a version of the NATs judge training. Once again, note the emphasis. There's a lot of detail and you can get a little bit off the track trying to follow it all in one bite. But this is the sort of knowledge you need to be competitive at the highest levels.

    Brett

     

[Brian Massey]

Well thanks to you Curtis, I have now gotten to the point that I must buy a larger notebook.  Looks like a good read for sure. Maybe this will help in my quest to move up to advanced . . . if I can ever quit flying like a dufus. I know I fly a lot of manuvers incorrectly (been practicing that for years now and gotten quite good at being wrong), maybe now I will practice them correctly . . . or not.

Brian

[Steve Helmick]

Curtis...That link has been posted on the "Online Judging Clinic" forum for about 2-3 years. I had to go dig around to be sure, but it's there. You're welcome to come and visit, but you first have to ask Sparky or Randy for access to the Rules/Judging forums. The intent of this is to keep the discussions civil and be able to enforce that goal. As expected, once the subject has been pretty thoroughly thrashed, there's not much to add. New ideas and thoughts are always welcome, but civility is required.

There is some justifiable criticism for the "bracketing" on p.30 where it shows what scores should be expected for various skill classes. Judges should absolutely be willing and able to give Experts low scores and Beginners high scores...as they deserve, based on the flying they did.

Regarding what Ty said about remembering the sequence...uh, I figured out that the sequence is pretty logical, so I just figure out what's next during the lap after each. Assuming you can remember the takeoff, level laps and RWO...
the loops go from easiest to most difficult, then the horizontal 8's go from easiest to most difficult, then the vertical 8's go from easiest to most difficult (the Hourglass being considered a triangular V8), then the OH8 and Clover to finish it off. Easiest to most difficult and low stuff to up top stuff. Consider the Clover to be two diagonal 8's, if you want. We always remember to land, but hopefully not in between any of that other stuff!  Steve

[Brian Massey]

There is some justifiable criticism for the "bracketing" on p.30 where it shows what scores should be expected for various skill classes. Judges should absolutely be willing and able to give Experts low scores and Beginners high scores...as they deserve, based on the flying they did.

Steve

I've always wondered about what judges "expect to see", vs. what the flyer actually gives them to see. The highest score I've ever gotten was flying in Classic at the recent GSSC (I'm an Intermediate flyer). I scored 472 (about 25 points higher than a normal "good score for me) to place 15th. The next day I won Intermediate with a score of 459.5. With that experience, someone told me that my scores would go up by 25 points just by moving up to Advanced. I don't think any judge has an overt mindset to give anyone a lower score in intermediate, but I think there is some "expectation" that works it's way into the judge's mind. Im sure it's all just a part of the subjective nature of the judging in this sport.

I do hope to move up to advanced by the next NWR and be a bottom feeder again  . No problem with that, I can happily be a bottom feeder again . . . just as long as I beat my brother  .

Brian

[Tim Wescott]

After reading this last spring:

http://www.flyinglines.org/dirt.7.06.html

I went to the Jim Walker Memorial, begged some score sheets from Barbara, and 'shadow judged' Intermediate, Advanced, and part of Expert (I did not want to ruin my enjoyment of Paul Walker's flight by concentrating on my guess at his scores; also, I had asked Scott Riese a question about Hourglass shape and he was nice enough to critique maneuvers for me through several flights).  I think it helped me considerably, and I I should definitely do it more.  So if you see me at a meet this year, and I'm brushing you off while noodling with a piece of paper on a clip board, there's a reason that I'm being anti-social.

The only thing I disagree with in Dan's article is on the last sentence: pencil?  erase?  I barely had enough time to come to a decision and write something between maneuvers!  So if nothing else, the experience does help me remember my two "laps for the judges".

[Curtis Shipp]

Steve, I do not get involved in rules or BOM.   I will ask Sparky about going to the other forum. I was uncivil one time online then found out that the other guy was joking. Some here may remember that. Since then I have always been civil, My size 9 foot did not taste good and I felt about 1' tall when it was over. Stunt is fun to me and the only thing I have stuck with for more then 3 years. This is year 11 for me. When I read the judging book I found out that you cannot relax in between maneuvers. I can remember the pattern but did not realize you set the base line with the level laps. I also come down to level way to slow after a maneuver and that hurts my score. I did get to judge at the Clanton contest and the book will help in my quest to be a good judge.  Thanks for the info and one of these days maybe we can meet. That is another reason I stay in PA. I have found most people are very nice here and at the contest. Also I still have the K&B's I bought from you and 1 is on a Brodak Hurricane for warbird wars at Clanton and maybe King Orange. Thanks for the help. Opps got to go, just got a call a fire trucks pump broke down and they need some help. A machinist's work is never done.

[Tim Wescott]

Regarding what Ty said about remembering the sequence...uh, I figured out that the sequence is pretty logical, so I just figure out what's next during the lap after each. Assuming you can remember the takeoff, level laps and RWO...
the loops go from easiest to most difficult, then the horizontal 8's go from easiest to most difficult, then the vertical 8's go from easiest to most difficult (the Hourglass being considered a triangular V8), then the OH8 and Clover to finish it off. Easiest to most difficult and low stuff to up top stuff. Consider the Clover to be two diagonal 8's, if you want. We always remember to land, but hopefully not in between any of that other stuff!

Steve:

That's a good insight.  I had realized that the pattern went loops-eights-clover, but had not realized that it went easier->harder, nor that you could think of it as loops-eights-overheads (in which case it is perfectly clear and consistent).  I suppose it was done that way on purpose, but that doesn't mean that it's clear to a beginner!

[Steve Helmick]

I've always wondered about what judges "expect to see", vs. what the flyer actually gives them to see. The highest score I've ever gotten was flying in Classic at the recent GSSC (I'm an Intermediate flyer). I scored 472 (about 25 points higher than a normal "good score for me) to place 15th. The next day I won Intermediate with a score of 459.5. With that experience, someone told me that my scores would go up by 25 points just by moving up to Advanced. I don't think any judge has an overt mindset to give anyone a lower score in intermediate, but I think there is some "expectation" that works it's way into the judge's mind. Im sure it's all just a part of the subjective nature of the judging in this sport.

I do hope to move up to advanced by the next NWR and be a bottom feeder again  . No problem with that, I can happily be a bottom feeder again . . . just as long as I beat my brother  . Brian

Brian, a spread of 12.5 points between two sets of judges really isn't a huge amount. You noticed that it's the second day where your scores were lower? Same thing happens to me, even if it's the same judges. It's from being tired, I'm sure. IMO, my best flight is my first one (cold) on the first day. That's why I seldom take a warmup flight, even if it's not the same plane as the last one I flew. When I'm judging, I usually give lower scores in the second round, probably from being tired. After the sucky summer I've had (lots of medical issues), I need to get back into the gym. It does help!    Steve

[Brian Massey]

Hi Steve; Get lots of rest and get yourself back in shape for the upcoming season    Ya, I've noticed that my first flight of the day is almost always my best. I feel good about it and then can't back it up  . I can't believe it's because I'm "tired"; jeez, all I did was go in circles for 6.5 minutes.

Brian

[Steve Helmick]

Yeah, but there's the nervous energy expended, and all the cooking and other "work" done helping others, snooping, taking pictures, going to the can, etc. When you were 21, it didn't matter, but now we're not, and it matters. Try a nap between rounds.  Steve

[john e. holliday]

I would swear some judges take a nap during my flights, until after I landed my Old Timer plane and caught the judges laughing so hard they couldn't stand up.  Really judges should take a break after so many flights or maybe every hour.