Sticker Shock (And a solution)

[Jim Catevenis]

                                                                             Sticker Shock
                                                                            (And a solution)

     “Sticker Shock” – It doesn’t just apply to gasoline, bacon, and rental cars. It is very much a factor in our part of the world, control line flying.  As we all know, or should know, it is largely a result in “change of direction” in our national political policies. Artificial shortages have been created that would not have occurred under normal supply-and-demand economics.  Whenever the supply of something is reduced, it’s price will go up. It is as predictable as gravity.
   
     Since early 2021 the domestic supply of petroleum has been reduced.  The result, anything derived from oil costs more, including gasoline, heating oil, and chemicals to make our fuel and paints.  I recently saw a gallon of acetone at my local Ace Hardware store priced at 26 dollars.  The last time I bought some, maybe two months ago, it was 18 dollars.  I have not checked methanol prices lately, as I am good on fuel for now, but I am sure it is more than the 40 dollars or so I paid for a 5-gallon drum earlier in the year.  A glance at Aircraft Spruce’s prices for dope, in their paper catalog for ’21-’22, showed 74 dollars for a gallon of non-tautening nitrate.  I’d bet the website shows it higher yet.  You don’t even want to consider buying red dope or urethane!
     
     Shipping problems also hurt our world. ARF\ARC kits come from China.  The glow plugs that I use (OS Type F) come from Japan.  The price of these plugs has doubled recently to nearly 25 dollars…each!  Balsa comes from Central America or New Guinea.  Fewer shipping containers or ships are available, as are trucks and drivers.
     
     I don’t fly electric, but I have to believe the problems mentioned above also apply to motors, batteries, and other electronic components.  Nearly all of it comes from China in one form or another.
     
     And, of course, all of the supply problems, and costs come on top of the lingering Covid related rules or actual illness, which further decreases labor availability.  Fortunately, here in Georgia, we were the first state to “open up”, and we also have very low Covid rates, but we are impacted by what goes on elsewhere.
     
     The more everything costs, and the less of it that is available, also decreases actual flying.  It costs more to go the field.  It costs more to travel to a contest.  It even costs more to put on a contest, and fewer people are likely to attend (…and there are many, many reasons for that!).
     
     So, what to do about it? We cannot do much about shipping problems and petroleum costs, though inevitability we will use we’ll use less (less demand) so bit by bit prices will stabilize or fall.  If you fly glow power you can fly on no-nitro fuel, which is cheaper than any than any fuel with nitro, whether commercial or home brew.  Nearly all engines designed and manufactured after about 1980 will run fine on no-nitro fuel, and also use a lot less of it.  My Stalker .76 uses 3 3/4 ounces of fuel for the pattern!
     
     We have also experimented with engines not known as “no-nitro” engines.  OS LA .40’s and .46’s run fine on zero nitro if you remove the head shim/gasket there by increasing the compression.  They seal up fine. Ditto Brodak .40’s.  I would bet that P.A.’s and Ro-Jett’s will do the same.  I have shown other people excellent, powerful enough, engine runs on Brodak and Double Star .40’s using 0% nitro, 17% Klotz KL-200 oil, and using those OS Type F plugs.  Less than 3 ounces of fuel is needed for a pattern on a .40…way less!  The key here is the “hot” 4 stroke plug, and not the usual 22% oil content.  Too much oil “quenches” the fire and is simply unnecessary in modern AAC or ABC engines.  That much poo-poo’ed R/C fuel works fine-better in fact, than traditional “stunt fuel”.
     
     Probably the most important thing we can do is simply continue and live with the costs as best we can.  Getting together with others and flying matters.  It keeps everyone involved.  Competition is fun, but it doesn’t matter.  Fellowship does.  Flying perfect patterns is not why we do this.  Seeing our friends, sharing stories, catching up on family and “ailments”, and generally enjoying life is the point.  If it cost more to do it, well, that’s how valuable it is.


Tom Dixon

[Avaiojet]

I can't help you out with the politics except "I told everyone so."

But,

A glance at Aircraft Spruce’s prices for dope, in their paper catalog for ’21-’22, showed 74 dollars for a gallon of non-tautening nitrate.  I’d bet the website shows it higher yet.

I build fine models buying absolutely nothing from that vendor, especially Nitrate dope.

And I have absolutely no idea why people continue to find a use for it? But's that's me. Not a drop on any of my models.

There are alternatives to paying, 74 dollars for a gallon of non-tautening nitrate.

[FLOYD CARTER]

I can't help you out with the politics except "I told everyone so."

.

And you just didn't listen.  So now you suffer.

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Yes, we are dealing with inflation.  And you are right that policies have an influence, such as tariffs.  The chart below shows a dramatic 2018 increase, for example.

But, back to glow fuel, one idea is 2.5% nitro.  Already, I prefer 5%, but often run 10% because it is available.

Peter

[Tony Drago]

And you just didn't listen.  So now you suffer.

We are far worse off now Big Time. Then before.

[Brett Buck]

And you just didn't listen.  So now you suffer.

  Right, you and people like you vote for idiots time after time, the rest of us pay the consequences. Enjoy it until November 2022, that will be the end for another decade or so.

    Brett

[Mark wood]

  Right, you and people like you vote for idiots time after time, the rest of us pay the consequences. Enjoy it until November 2022, that will be the end for another decade or so.

    Brett

I hope you're right Brett.

[Jim Svitko]

As far as fuel costs go, the nitro is, of course, expensive.  It was $40 a gallon the last time I was able to get any here in DFW.  That was over a year ago and I have not called my supplier about any to ask what it costs now.

We all complain about the cost of nitro but forget about the oil.  I can get a Klotz blend (80/20, synthetic/castor mix) at local motorcycle shops for $50 a gallon.  Methanol costs are not too high here, at least not yet.  I was able to get it for $4 a gallon at an automotive performance supply shop but I bet the next time I buy some it will be more than that.

Put the blame where you like for the recent inflation, which is most likely not transitory, as the bureaucrats like to say.  It is here to stay until the next economic crash.  Prices might drop when people are out of work and have no money to spend.  I prefer to blame the Fed for inflation.  What do you expect when the Fed has printed trillions in cash with nothing (i.e. gold, silver) to back it up?

[phil c]

.......
Put the blame where you like for the recent inflation, which is most likely not transitory, as the bureaucrats like to say.  It is here to stay until the next economic crash.  Prices might drop when people are out of work and have no money to spend.  I prefer to blame the Fed for inflation.  What do you expect when the Fed has printed trillions in cash with nothing (i.e. gold, silver) to back it up?

More important than not selling bonds as the fed usually does, the inflation occurs because there is no growth in the economy to support much more buying.  With "things" not being made or imported the price of what is available goes up if more than 1 person wants it.

All the artificial stumbling blocks the Biden admin has pushed- various injections, masks, Keystone pipeline, limits on oil production, higher tariffs, who knows it all.  All the blocks are one more inflationary cause.

[Avaiojet]

  Right, you and people like you vote for idiots time after time, the rest of us pay the consequences. Enjoy it until November 2022, that will be the end for another decade or so.

    Brett

Brett,

I hope you're right also.

CB

[RC Storick]

LET'S GO BRANDON

[Ken Culbertson]

LET'S GO BRANDON

[Bob Hunt]

Okay, let's get back to the subject of this thread:

Here's my take. Today fuel is nominally priced at $25.00 to $35.00 per gallon. That, of course, is fuel that contains nitro; I have no idea what FAI fuel runs per gallon, but let's face it, not very many will be running their competition engines, or even their sport engines without some percentage of nitro. The modern glow stunt model uses nominally 7 to 8 ounces of fuel per flight, yielding approximately 20 flights per gallon, or more than $1.00 per flight just for fuel. Factor in the price of glow plugs at $10 to $12 each - and the fact that they only yield about 15 to 20 flights before the elements "potato up,"  and you can up the per flight cost significantly. At those prices glow just doesn't make much sense anymore to me.

Now let's take a look at the per flight cost of electric: I just ordered two 5S 2,800 mAh batteries from Thunder Power. Granted, they were on Black Friday sale, but they often have 1/2 price sales throughout the year; I just order when they do have the specials. Each battery cost just about $35.00, or the equivalent of purchasing one gallon of glow fuel at today's prices. I'd get nominally 20 flights from the one gallon of fuel, but I can expect to get upwards to 100 to 150 or more flights from each of my batteries. Add to that the fact that I don't have to buy glow plugs, and it is clear that electric is far less expensive than glow, especially for those of us who fly a lot. True, you will need to purchase a good charger that will also discharge and put your batteries into storage mode, and you will also need to purchase a good power supply that will provide enough amps to charge several batteries at one time, but after those "start up" expenses, electric become much less expensive on a per flight basis.

There are other less obvious factors in favor of electric flight. Many of us have (or had...) to travel significant distances to practice with our glow powered models due to noise restrictions. In many cases there are fields much closer to home at which an electric powered model could be flown and not incur the wrath of local home owners. In my case there is a field 1/4 mile from my home at which I can fly. But I cannot fly glow there early in the morning - when I like to practice. But, I can fly an electric powered model there at virtually any time of day, and the people in the houses that are in close proximity to the field do not even know I'm there. So, I spend less on GAS and TIME to go to that field as opposed to going to the nearest one that allows me to fly glow at those same times. Of course that factor will vary from flier to flier. Another intangible is the fact that my clothes don't get saturated with glow fuel residue, and that makes life at home soooo much happier... Jeans and T shirts last a lot longer these days.

I won't even go into the obvious performance and trim advantages of electric versus glow here, as that would only cause this thread to go off topic again.

Bottom line: Choose whichever mode of power that suits you and your flying; just be aware that the argument that glow is less expensive than electric is just flat wrong.

Later - Bob Hunt           

[Ken Culbertson]

Another intangible is the fact that my clothes don't get saturated with glow fuel residue, and that makes life at home soooo much happier... Jeans and T shirts last a lot longer these days.

In my house this intangible stands alone as justification for electric.  Others have more forgiving households..
Ken

[Jim Svitko]

No way to argue with Mr. Hunt on this.  It looks to be only a matter of time before we are forced to change to electric if we want to continue flying.  Legislation, noise, availability of fuel components, lack of engines and engine parts availability, etc. will eventually overwhelm us.  The one item that I find scary to continue flying with glow engines is getting glow plugs.  Shut off that supply and we have to look at alternatives.

I am not flying enough to worry that much about fuel cost right now.  I can still mix my own for less than I can buy it.  I will continue to do so as long as the cost does not get too prohibitive for me and the components are available.  But, I see the end coming one day.

If and when I change to electric I will not get rid of any engines.  Things go in cycles and the way we are heading toward complete electrification of everything, can battery production keep up?  We are only a hobby so even if there is a demand for our batteries and other components to keep us flying, I wonder if other areas of the economy will have priority (i.e more profit potential) and we would end up with the scraps.

[Mark wood]

No way to argue with Mr. Hunt on this.  It looks to be only a matter of time before we are forced to change to electric if we want to continue flying.  Legislation, noise, availability of fuel components, lack of engines and engine parts availability, etc. will eventually overwhelm us.  The one item that I find scary to continue flying with glow engines is getting glow plugs.  Shut off that supply and we have to look at alternatives.

I am not flying enough to worry that much about fuel cost right now.  I can still mix my own for less than I can buy it.  I will continue to do so as long as the cost does not get too prohibitive for me and the components are available.  But, I see the end coming one day.

If and when I change to electric I will not get rid of any engines.  Things go in cycles and the way we are heading toward complete electrification of everything, can battery production keep up?  We are only a hobby so even if there is a demand for our batteries and other components to keep us flying, I wonder if other areas of the economy will have priority (i.e more profit potential) and we would end up with the scraps.

Electric is the way.

It's not that I am not a engine guy. It's just that the performance is much better and more reliable. The other day, while flying with my IC friends who were futzing with an engine powered plane on one circle, I rolled up my lines, moved my stuff to the other circle, pinned  my stooge down, rolled out my lines, and started my flight about the time they got the engine running. I was on my third flight when they got the second flight airborne. I know many IC planes are much quicker than this but...

Elon Musk is Building three new battery plants. Two in the US and one over "there"... Of course those will be for the new 4680 cells and not the polymer packs used in our batteries. Still... All of the forces are committed to electric power.

[Mike Griffin]

Yeah

[Jim Svitko]

No, Mike, coal plants are being shut down.  They pollute too much.  Same with oil and natural gas.  Nuclear power is too dangerous.   That leaves wind turbines and solar.  I guess we have to hope the wind always blows and we have no more cloudy days.

I am hoping for a mild winter.  After that disaster here in Texas last February, I have little faith in the bureaucrats who assure us we will have the power when we need it.

[Ken Culbertson]

No, Mike, coal plants are being shut down.  They pollute too much.  Same with oil and natural gas.  Nuclear power is too dangerous.   That leaves wind turbines and solar.  I guess we have to hope the wind always blows and we have no more cloudy days.

I am hoping for a mild winter.  After that disaster here in Texas last February, I have little faith in the bureaucrats who assure us we will have the power when we need it.

Jim, We will tolerate this insanely fast switch to "renewable" sources as long as it does not destroy society in the process.  We have really cleaned up the fossil fuel emissions and we should allow them to power our society until efficient renewable sources can be brought on line.  The frozen windmills last winter did more damage and caused more loss of life than any of the nuclear events inside our borders and should have reminded us just how much renewable technology is in it's infancy.  We simply don't have the technology yet.  We will, and probably soon, but we cannot cut off power to the economy as an incentive to invent an alternative.  Especially when the ones doing the cutting off are not affected by it and the ones affected are not the ones who can invent the alternative.  We will run out of the natural resources required to create solar power long before it can replace anything and wind is so far a disaster and unreliable. 

Ken

[pmackenzie]

Texas power failure last winter was not due to "frozen windmills".
It was mainly due to some natural gas generators not working in cold weather, and then the basic grid system not being able to handle the loss of that power.

[Jim Svitko]

Depending on who you want to believe, the Texas power fiasco in February appears to have had multiple causes.  Watching the news broadcasts, and seeing the blame-game play out, was nauseating.

Yes, some wind turbines had ice on the blades and no de-icing system.  After all, it does not get that cold here, right?  Why spend money on that feature if you do not expect trouble? 

I heard of natural gas pumping stations freezing up, not able to pump gas where needed.  The power plants themselves had issues with the extreme cold and could not cope with the conditions.   So, like the wind turbines, why prepare for such an extreme event when it is not likely to happen? 

Well, such a cold snap did happen before the one in February of this year.  My memory is not so good anymore but I think it was in 2012 and nothing was done then to correct the situation.  I have no reason to believe anything was done this time, either.

All I can do is stock up on firewood, fill up some empty gallon jugs with water, get canned foods, and hope for the best.  When not "prepping", maybe I can fly some.  We usually have some decent enough weather in the winter for that.

[Mark wood]

Depending on who you want to believe, the Texas power fiasco in February appears to have had multiple causes.  Watching the news broadcasts, and seeing the blame-game play out, was nauseating.

Yes, some wind turbines had ice on the blades and no de-icing system.  After all, it does not get that cold here, right?  Why spend money on that feature if you do not expect trouble? 

I heard of natural gas pumping stations freezing up, not able to pump gas where needed.  The power plants themselves had issues with the extreme cold and could not cope with the conditions.   So, like the wind turbines, why prepare for such an extreme event when it is not likely to happen? 

Well, such a cold snap did happen before the one in February of this year.  My memory is not so good anymore but I think it was in 2012 and nothing was done then to correct the situation.  I have no reason to believe anything was done this time, either.

All I can do is stock up on firewood, fill up some empty gallon jugs with water, get canned foods, and hope for the best.  When not "prepping", maybe I can fly some.  We usually have some decent enough weather in the winter for that.

This is a pretty good assessment in my mind. The energy we get from wind is only about 3%. So, it doesn't make sense that it would be the cause of such a great fiasco. Bottom line the energy supply was not able to keep up. A smart feller would have some stand by energy on hand. That isn't being a prepper.

[Avaiojet]

This is a pretty good assessment in my mind. The energy we get from wind is only about 3%. So, it doesn't make sense that it would be the cause of such a great fiasco. Bottom line the energy supply was not able to keep up. A smart feller would have some stand by energy on hand. That isn't being a prepper.

It's more like .35%.

Turbine Windmills are fake and give back nothing. The payoffs in that industry have to be huge. Renewable Energy? The only thing I can think of which is really, "Renewable Energy" is the sun.

Otherwise, there's no such thing. Just a way for the Democrat Communists to build an empire and launder money with propaganda. Can anyone guess what it costs to manufacture, build and erect a Turbine Windmill on land? Double this if offshore.

If you know the true figure, as I do, plus the amount of energy in material alone to build the foolish things, a light bulb should happen over your head.

Fake. Just like every word spoken by Democrat Communists.

[Mark wood]

It's more like .35%.

Turbine Windmills are fake and give back nothing. The payoffs in that industry have to be huge. Renewable Energy? The only thing I can think of which is really, "Renewable Energy" is the sun.

Otherwise, there's no such thing. Just a way for the Democrat Communists to build an empire and launder money with propaganda. Can anyone guess what it costs to manufacture, build and erect a Turbine Windmill on land? Double this if offshore.

If you know the true figure, as I do, plus the amount of energy in material alone to build the foolish things, a light bulb should happen over your head.

Fake. Just like every word spoken by Democrat Communists.

I removed my diatribe on nuclear energy because it drives too hard on the political. If the "green" people truly cared about zero carbon emissions, nuclear energy would be on the table for discussion. Nuclear energy is safer than even coal and has cause far fewer deaths.  It also has a lower carbon foot print than wind turbines and the heavy metal used in them is the fuel unlike solar panels have a number of toxic heavy metals in them which make them just as bad as nuclear fuel to dispose of but we don't put the same restrictions on them due to perception.  We the people subsidize 30% of every solar panel and wind turbine erected. Then we pay a premium price for the electricity we don't get from them to keep the power plants running.

[Gerald Arana]

Mark; OK, I'll bite. How'd it get here? I'd guess that animals breath it out........

Thanks for the intelligent post, Jerry

[Scott Richlen]

Ummm, guys.....good grief!

  or more than $1.00 per flight just for fuel.   

Better not take up golf cause you're gonna pay a lot more than that.  For most of you guys a Starbucks latte costs more than a whole day of flying.  And just think of how many quarter-pounders with cheese you won't be able to afford!!  Oh dear, oh dear!

Take a couple of big, deep breaths and stop clutching your pearls.  Things have a way of turning out okay in the long term.  For every Carter there's a Reagan.  Go read the book of Job.

[Mark wood]

Mark; OK, I'll bite. How'd it get here? I'd guess that animals breath it out........

Thanks for the intelligent post, Jerry

Do you refer to how did the carbon end up being bound up in the oil and coal in the ground? Okay so we are currently in a period where the CO2 content in our atmosphere is 200-400 PPM Depending on which source you find and many sources have been removed. Note: plants cannot survive in an atmosphere of 150-180 PPM and the ideal level for plant growth is 1200 PPM which is why greenhouse growers supplement the house with a source of CO2 such as bottled. In the age of dinosaurs and the greatest quantity of plants the atmosphere was like  4,000 to 5,000 ppm CO2. However much of that free carbon was bound up in the organic bodies, plants, animal and sea life like corals. The die off and covering for whatever reason caused them to be buried and the free carbon went with them.

The life cycle on earth is very much dependent on CO2. Plants use CO2 and photo synthesis to build their structures giving off oxygen in the process. Small animals consume the plants and use the carbon to build  their bodies which provide the carbon for carnivores to build their bodies. In exchange for the carbon animals respire CO2 in to the atmosphere to return the cycle. A similar thing happens in the ocean. Corals use carbon to make their exoskeletons with. They combine carbon and calcium into calcium carbonate in to the structure they live in. We call that coral sand. There are many billions of of tons of it and it all came from the free CO2 in the atmosphere.

It is true that CO2 has "some impact" on the global temperature but it is a very minor player. In fact it is also a moderator in the other direction which is never brought up. The primary player "Green House Gas" is H2O. Our planet surface is about 70% water and that water stays in a liquid vapor balance which dependent upon the temperature. higher temp, more vapor. More vapor, vapor, more cloud cover. The water vapor is also very good at reflecting electromagnetic radiation. You have probably experienced a cold cloudless night which felt particularly cold. That's because the clouds reflect the energy back quite effectively.  It goes both ways. This is called albedo. Well, CO2 does impact the warming but it has more impact on reflecting the incoming solar radiation than trapping what arrives. Where the CO2 resides is in the upper atmosphere where it acts to amplify the albedo not bring it down.

Another tidbit is that our species has been one earth for many thousands of years and all of the species on earth with us have endured CO2 concentration level much higher than we see today. I don't have time right now to write more but look up the Milankovitch cycle. This cycle was long ago determined to accurately account for the temperatures as seen in the fossil records and also accounts for the temperature increases we see in our current time. Somehow scientists seem to have forgotten this.

[john e. holliday]

Has anybody that can be believed tell us how many volcanos are active right now with the polution they spew into the atmosphere.  I don't/didn't believe the article that said one volcano out does the good ole USA as putting polution into the atmosphere.  But, I put my money on Mother nature and Mother earth taking care of things and will still be here when the Sun decides it is going to die.

[Mark wood]

Has anybody that can be believed tell us how many volcanos are active right now with the polution they spew into the atmosphere.  I don't/didn't believe the article that said one volcano out does the good ole USA as putting polution into the atmosphere.  But, I put my money on Mother nature and Mother earth taking care of things and will still be here when the Sun decides it is going to die.

Well, that depends on whom you choose to believe. A google search on the subject reveals 48. Probably enough to match the carbon emissions of automobiles in the US or more. But don't pay attention to me though, I'm just a well educated individual with nothing to gain other than helping stop repression. Rather pay attention to the to the peer reviewed publishers with significant monetary gains to be made by keeping the rhetoric. Have a look at the writings of Dr Patrick Moore, founder of Green Peace on the subject.

[Ken Culbertson]

Texas power failure last winter was not due to "frozen windmills".
It was mainly due to some natural gas generators not working in cold weather, and then the basic grid system not being able to handle the loss of that power.

https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2021/02/14/historic-winter-storm-freezes-texas-wind-turbines-hampering-electric-generation/4483230001/

Ken

[pmackenzie]

https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2021/02/14/historic-winter-storm-freezes-texas-wind-turbines-hampering-electric-generation/4483230001/

Ken

The story mentions wind turbines freezing, but if you listen to the audio it explains that the demand for natural gas caused the system wide failure.
IOW, it confirms what I said.
The story and audio was early on, much more is known now. The early claim about frozen wind turbines being the cause was simple deflection of blame.

[Mark wood]

The story mentions wind turbines freezing, but if you listen to the audio it explains that the demand for natural gas caused the system wide failure.
IOW, it confirms what I said.
The story and audio was early on, much more is known now. The early claim about frozen wind turbines being the cause was simple deflection of blame.

Depending on where you get your information wind energy accounts for about 6% of the energy. I don't believe it's even that high. Even if the turbines all quit, they can't be fully blamed on the inability of the power system to keep up in TX which points to the entire infrastructure. In KS, we use LP for heat and our state is one of the highest uptakes of wind energy. We didn't suffer quite as badly from energy deprivation but we did see high price hikes for gas.

[Ken Culbertson]

Even if the turbines all quit, they can't be fully blamed on the inability of the power system to keep up in TX which points to the entire infrastructure.

You are correct in that it was a failure of the entire infrastructure.  It may have only been 6% wind but there were areas where that 6% was 100% of their electricity.  The real problem was the inability to bring a lot of the natural gas on line for a host of reasons some of which were political.  It was like running out of gas at a gas station because the electric pumps are off.  Huge wake up call.  Most of us had no idea that the state was going "Green" without having any backup plan.  Quite a few heads rolled and we aren't out of the woods yet.  I think they got the Natural Gas part winterized and some of the political problems corrected but the windmills are not fully done yet.

Ken

[Dennis Toth]

Actually, the wind turbines were online in many areas but the grid was down so it was like running out of gas at the gas station with the pumps running but the fill hose cut. Most of Texas has an electric grid that is out of sync with the surrounding states so it can't get available power in the way most other states can to get things up and running again.

Best,   DennisT

[Avaiojet]

Has anybody that can be believed tell us how many volcanos are active right now with the polution they spew into the atmosphere.  I don't/didn't believe the article that said one volcano out does the good ole USA as putting polution into the atmosphere.  But, I put my money on Mother nature and Mother earth taking care of things and will still be here when the Sun decides it is going to die.

There are 1,500 active volcanos on the planet.

[Avaiojet]

You are correct in that it was a failure of the entire infrastructure.  It may have only been 6% wind but there were areas where that 6% was 100% of their electricity.  The real problem was the inability to bring a lot of the natural gas on line for a host of reasons some of which were political.  It was like running out of gas at a gas station because the electric pumps are off.  Huge wake up call.  Most of us had no idea that the state was going "Green" without having any backup plan.  Quite a few heads rolled and we aren't out of the woods yet.  I think they got the Natural Gas part winterized and some of the political problems corrected but the windmills are not fully done yet.

Ken

Turbine Windmills produce NOTHING. They are FAKE. The give back number is .35%, no matter what you read. Propaganda.

Until this sinks in, you won't clearly have a reason or understand why they even exist.

[Gerald Arana]

Do you refer to how did the carbon end up being bound up in the oil and coal in the ground? Okay so we are currently in a period where the CO2 content in our atmosphere is 200-400 PPM Depending on which source you find and many sources have been removed. Note: plants cannot survive in an atmosphere of 150-180 PPM and the ideal level for plant growth is 1200 PPM which is why greenhouse growers supplement the house with a source of CO2 such as bottled. In the age of dinosaurs and the greatest quantity of plants the atmosphere was like  4,000 to 5,000 ppm CO2. However much of that free carbon was bound up in the organic bodies, plants, animal and sea life like corals. The die off and covering for whatever reason caused them to be buried and the free carbon went with them.

The life cycle on earth is very much dependent on CO2. Plants use CO2 and photo synthesis to build their structures giving off oxygen in the process. Small animals consume the plants and use the carbon to build  their bodies which provide the carbon for carnivores to build their bodies. In exchange for the carbon animals respire CO2 in to the atmosphere to return the cycle. A similar thing happens in the ocean. Corals use carbon to make their exoskeletons with. They combine carbon and calcium into calcium carbonate in to the structure they live in. We call that coral sand. There are many billions of of tons of it and it all came from the free CO2 in the atmosphere.

It is true that CO2 has "some impact" on the global temperature but it is a very minor player. In fact it is also a moderator in the other direction which is never brought up. The primary player "Green House Gas" is H2O. Our planet surface is about 70% water and that water stays in a liquid vapor balance which dependent upon the temperature. higher temp, more vapor. More vapor, vapor, more cloud cover. The water vapor is also very good at reflecting electromagnetic radiation. You have probably experienced a cold cloudless night which felt particularly cold. That's because the clouds reflect the energy back quite effectively.  It goes both ways. This is called albedo. Well, CO2 does impact the warming but it has more impact on reflecting the incoming solar radiation than trapping what arrives. Where the CO2 resides is in the upper atmosphere where it acts to amplify the albedo not bring it down.

Another tidbit is that our species has been one earth for many thousands of years and all of the species on earth with us have endured CO2 concentration level much higher than we see today. I don't have time right now to write more but look up the Milankovitch cycle. This cycle was long ago determined to accurately account for the temperatures as seen in the fossil records and also accounts for the temperature increases we see in our current time. Somehow scientists seem to have forgotten this.

Mark,

Thank you for this explanation. I can follow "most" of it and would like to hear more if you have the time to spare.

Thank you, Jerry

[Mark wood]

Mark,

Thank you for this explanation. I can follow "most" of it and would like to hear more if you have the time to spare.

Thank you, Jerry

Well, this is a model airplane forum and not a climate forum so, I am hesitant to engage in such a topic. That's why I removed my diatribe on nuclear power plants. My bachelor degree is in nuclear physics and I am very interested in rational preservation of our environment which currently isn't happening. Those on the other side would call me a climate denyer while the reality is that I don't subscribe to the 3x5 card of popular opinion and have the knowledge and education to make a rational discussions about the direction we should be moving. I am also not an expert on nuclear energy as I pretty much left the science after college and worked in aerospace. Today, given an opportunity to join one of the Thorium proponent companies, I would with massive pleasure. It is my belief that these are the best future technologies for global growth. Think about it, they burn dirt and nuclear waste. That's cool sit if you ask me.

[Wayne Collier]

Well, this is a model airplane forum and not a climate forum so, I am hesitant to engage in such a topic. That's why I removed my diatribe on nuclear power plants. My bachelor degree is in nuclear physics and I am very interested in rational preservation of our environment which currently isn't happening. Those on the other side would call me a climate denyer while the reality is that I don't subscribe to the 3x5 card of popular opinion and have the knowledge and education to make a rational discussions about the direction we should be moving. I am also not an expert on nuclear energy as I pretty much left the science after college and worked in aerospace. Today, given an opportunity to join one of the Thorium proponent companies, I would with massive pleasure. It is my belief that these are the best future technologies for global growth. Think about it, they burn dirt and nuclear waste. That's cool sit if you ask me.

Double thumbs up.  Most of the environmental rhetoric in the media is churned up extremism.  Thorium seems practical enough to be at least tested on a larger scale.

[Avaiojet]

Well, this is a model airplane forum and not a climate forum so, I am hesitant to engage in such a topic. That's why I removed my diatribe on nuclear power plants. My bachelor degree is in nuclear physics and I am very interested in rational preservation of our environment which currently isn't happening. Those on the other side would call me a climate denyer while the reality is that I don't subscribe to the 3x5 card of popular opinion and have the knowledge and education to make a rational discussions about the direction we should be moving. I am also not an expert on nuclear energy as I pretty much left the science after college and worked in aerospace. Today, given an opportunity to join one of the Thorium proponent companies, I would with massive pleasure. It is my belief that these are the best future technologies for global growth. Think about it, they burn dirt and nuclear waste. That's cool sit if you ask me.

I believe the jobs and opportunities in this area are currently in China.

[Mark wood]

I believe the jobs and opportunities in this area are currently in China.

I've been offered seriously good money to work in China. There isn't any way I would. There are opportunities here within the US and that would be my focus.

[Avaiojet]

I've been offered seriously good money to work in China. There isn't any way I would. There are opportunities here within the US and that would be my focus.

You wouldn't have to worry about Covid in China. They don't spread it there, just everyplace else.

 

[Mark wood]

You wouldn't have to worry about Covid in China. They don't spread it there, just everyplace else.

 

I don't worry about COVID period. I had it. Got it from a vaccinated person who got it from a vaccinated person. It's not what you've been lead to believe.

[Ken Culbertson]

I don't worry about COVID period. I had it. Got it from a vaccinated person who got it from a vaccinated person. It's not what you've been lead to believe.

That is the only logical approach.  We have been sold a (enter your own description for a "load of Crap") by two administrations both hoodwinked by Dr. F*****.  There is no way to stop the spread of a virus.  You can only slow it down while you find a cure. "Immunity" comes from vaccination or having the virus but neither neither prevent you from "catching" it or spreading it which makes the use of immunity rather comical.  "Vaccinations" lessen your chances of death and having it makes it unlikely you will have symptoms again.   The more we retard it's spread the longer it will take it to die out on it's own. This may be the one time where one of my Father's many *old sayings* was right - "Ignore it and it will go away".

It may appear that we are drifting off thread (don't we always do that) but this is right on target to Tom's last paragraph.  The longer we play the government's game the more we destroy what is most important to us, our fellowship.

Ken

[Avaiojet]

That is the only logical approach.  We have been sold a (enter your own description for a "load of Crap") by two administrations both hoodwinked by Dr. F*****.  There is no way to stop the spread of a virus.  You can only slow it down while you find a cure. "Immunity" comes from vaccination or having the virus but neither neither prevent you from "catching" it or spreading it which makes the use of immunity rather comical.  "Vaccinations" lessen your chances of death and having it makes it unlikely you will have symptoms again.   The more we retard it's spread the longer it will take it to die out on it's own. This may be the one time where one of my Father's many *old sayings* was right - "Ignore it and it will go away".

It may appear that we are drifting off thread (don't we always do that) but this is right on target to Tom's last paragraph.  The longer we play the government's game the more we destroy what is most important to us, our fellowship.

Ken

You can die from the vaccine also. Don't forget this. Many are.

[Tom McClain]

It is time for all free rugged American individuals to say “No more” and live our own lives.  We need to recognize BS when it is obvious no matter where and who is trying to feed it to us.  We are better than this and ceding our God given rights to bureaucrats and martinets is unacceptable.

NO MORE!!!!

[Ken Culbertson]

It is time for all free rugged American individuals to say “No more” and live our own lives.  We need to recognize BS when it is obvious no matter where and who is trying to feed it to us.  We are better than this and ceding our Go given rights to bureaucrats and martinets is unacceptable.

Here, Here

Ken