Spider wire for Lines ?

[jim gilmore]

If I choose`to try spider wire as the lines on my .09  powered akromaster what poundage would you suggest ?
I'm thinking 30# but not sure if thats big enough.

[Frank Sheridan]

I'd like to hear some recent reports of spider wire usage. All my search results bring posts that are over a year old. I went to my local WalMart and the selection of braided fishing lines is large. I've also heard of something called Spectra, but didn't see any at WallyMart. I went to the BassProShop website and there's all kinds of lines. Does anybody have a table or some examples of data to share? I'd like to know what the largest plane to fly on spiderwire has been, and how well the lines worked out.

[Wayne J. Buran]

Spectra is a high strength monofilament extruded synthetic. No relationship what so ever to anything metallic. I would suggest caution on spyder wire until AMA approves as a suitable control line substitute for currently used wire because your insurance may not be viable using it.
Wayne

[john e. holliday]

If he is using it for just plain sport flying and not going for that last little bit of speed, let him experiment.  I used to fly dacron lines on 1/2A's for years until I got into competition.  DOC Holliday

[minnesotamodeler]

I use Spiderwire almost exclusively, up to AME .061 which is a strong little engine, probably equivalent to most .074s and some .09s.  Lengths to 52'.  I use 8 to 12# test for .049s, 35 to 42' long; 18# for the larger (and longer) ones.  IMO 30# test is PLENTY for your .09, but that's just my opinion as I've never used an .09 so can't speak from experience. But I can't imagine anything less than a .35 or so putting out 30# of pull; that's a lot.

[Bill Adair]

I picked up some Pro Line braided Spectra, which is what some of the half-A fliers are using in my club. It comes in several colors including yellow, and that is real easy to see on our grass fields.

Our local Joe's Sports (formerly G.I. Joe's) is having a going out of business sale. The 20# Pro Line was regularly priced at over $15 for 100 yards. I got it for $2.77 out the door! 

Bill

[ray copeland]

Have not tried pull tests yet, but,, my lines are only rolled up for mowing. They have been laying in the back yard for over a year. Spiderwire #30 , they have flown all of my 1/2 a's which are all .061 norvels including the ame's on combat style planes with only triple overhand knots connected to small fishing swivels and have been wrapped in the props many times. No failures yet,, we fly at least 3 times a week!!    Would love to see some pull test results..   

[scott bolton]

 Hi fellas, just thought i'd throw in my two cents worth about the use of spider wire. I bought a spool of 65 lb test spider wire from cabelas on line.I think i have 15 or 20 flights on a set of 60 ft lines with a profile smoothie & an evolution 36 and an arf nobler with a 40 sized engine. As of right now i have had NO problems whatsoever with the spider wire. Keep in mind several things, it is 65lb test per line and we are using two. Also the AMA rules as of right now speak of using multistrand wire and i,m just not sure if we would be allowed to use spiderwire at sanctioned events. It is my thought and experience with spiderwire that it works well and is incredible in strength,also it stays very smooth after lots of twists. It also handles treatment in grass and such without kinks & etc. My first thought was that it would not be strong enough, but after several backyard pull tests i put a set to the test with great results.If any more info is needed please fire me an email. THANKS!!! Scott bolton

[Frank Sheridan]

Ray Copeland said: "Have not tried pull tests yet, but,, my lines are only rolled up for mowing. They have been laying in the back yard for over a year. Spiderwire #30"

Let me get this straight, you leave your lines outside in the weather? That's different...really low maintenance! Or should I say NO maintenance!

[Frank Sheridan]

OK, I went to the Cabelas site and found several Spiderwire types - stealth, ultracast, invisi-braid, and e-z braid. Which is the one used for flying lines? I also seem to remember something called "fusion" - is that another type?

[Geoff Goodworth]

Here's a fairly recent discussion.

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=12447.0

Cheers, Geoff

[minnesotamodeler]

I started with Spiderwire "Fusion", but have used several other types/brands with equal success.  The key is to get "extra sensitive" or "ultra sensitive" line, some wording like that.  To a fisherman that means you can feel any little twitch as a fish nibbles; to a modeler it means non-stretch, no sponginess.  In fact it seems to be equal to 7-strand SS in stretch.

 It's 'way out of dacron's league, don't even try to compare them!

Ray, you've gone me one better--I don't leave mine laying out in the yard!  But yes, I have unwrapped them from a combat opponent's prop and immediately flown on them again.  It is tough stuff. 

I have some 4# test that I fly my .020s on.

[Kim Doherty]

I have been using Berkley "FIRELINE Crystal" 2lb test (.003 dia) for indoor electric C/L. I think the breaking strength is a fair bit more as it would cut your hand off if you tried to break it. I would have no qualms about flying a 1/2 A on this line.

Kim.

[Glen Wearden]

I am using the Spectra "Power Pro" microfilament line.  I made up a set of 60lb. test (they are yellow) and have made several flights with my Nobler ARF (40LA), Ringmaster (25LA), Twister (Torpedo 35), and modified Flite Streak (Fox 35).  I love these lines.  They don't kink, are easy to roll up, VERY visible on the ground, and I don't know how many loops a person could make without feeling a lot of resistance, i.e., they stay slick.  I also have a roll of 80lb test (colored red), but haven't made a set of lines, yet.  I got mine at Cabela's.

Glen Wearden

[Phil Spillman]

Friends, Earlier this month in Akron prior to the "trouble" Roger Strickler and I made up a set of 65# Spider Wire lines for me to try. It is fabulous!!! I flew my very old and beat up Tutor with USN trim and my Brodak FW 109 made to look like a Stuka on this stuff. Neither Rogerr not I are "thin"! I attached two handles, one to each end of my lines, and we leaned back so as to produce an extraordinarily heavy pull test! No trouble! The Stuka is powered by an LA .46, the Tutor by a B-.40. Both planes flew better than either one had ever flown before!

Spider Wire has been approved for COMBAT!!!!!!!!!! Of all things! Phil Cartier wrote the original proposal for this and in it he proposed that this product be valid and approved for ALL UC events! This fact got lost in the approval process! So if you want to use this stuff for fun its not forbidden! It is not permissible for Contests for now. It's a shame since it is lighter, stronger, and more durable than steel.   

We need an approval process to unify all of Control Line for general aspects, such as Spider Wire, rather than to persist in our antiquated requirement that each separate area, such as speed, combat,stunt, racing, etc.etc. having to have its own separate bureau's approval.

Phil Spillman

Phil Spillman
     have

[Dennis Adamisin]

I just made up some .008x35's (SS) for a Baby Clown, frankly I think the .008 SS is pretty fragile. What would be the suitable SpiderWIre and how would it compare to the .008 SS in terms of strength and weight?

[john e. holliday]

Would you really trust the spider wire on a 190+ speed plane or even a racing plane?  DOC Holliday

[jim gilmore]

Ok, thats kind of a strange thing to ask.
1.) The reason I'm considering spiderwire is  that it is a  multi-stranded synthetic (string/line) with low stretch.
2.) In the same vein of thought. Would you trust plate armour or a kevlar vest as a protectrion with your life.
The point being that steel being a know strong material vs a high tech substitution that is new to you.
At least that is the way this subject seems to be to me. But I am not saying that a 1 lb speed model should be flown on 10 lb line.... I might have to consider using a line maybe 2 or 3 times the strength You might be recommended to use. say a 1 lb model could us 3x the weight x10=30 lb aqs the bare minimum .
 

[don Burke]

I don't think the question is tensile strength of "spiderwire", it's a matter of specifying and making the right kind of knot.  I think the various AMA contest boards are waiting for proof of concept through testing before altering the rules.  I believe the proposals made during the last rules cycled did not pass.

[bfrog]

Don, you are 100% correct. The issues with Spectra or Spiderwire are with the terminations. I did some research and some testing about a year ago and found that tying the knots was a challenge (at least for me). In the research it showed that most failures came right at the terminations. I had planned on trying some sort of crimp termination but just never quite got there.

The material has great properties and is very durable. All that is left is a good, simple and reliable termination scheme.

[Shultzie]

I have only been using spectra lines.....for about 20 years or so for competition sport kites.
Main lessons learned.

1. My main choice is the SHANTI PRO brand.  It usually costs more...(however it can be found on line through both Amazon and E Bay etc.
Although my online source is usually my friends here in Wa.

www.cuttingedgekites.com

In the early 90's my co-worker Rob Scribner and I started flying team kites with a bunch of friends  and it wasn't long before all of us got hooked flying ripstop. Rob was a supervisor at Boeing before he said GOODBYE and started his own kite shop called CUTTING EDGE KITES...It wasn't long before he and Sherry ended up at Ocean Shores  until he again sold the business to Jim and Monica Barber..(who at the time was also CUTTING EDGE kite team members...
(Bye the way...Cutting Edge Team has won a gaggle of world cup throphies and 1st wins all over the globe....
THESE FOLKS...KNOW KITING FROM A to Z. and that goes for knowing what works best..when it comes to kite lines..and info.

Spectra lines have pros but quite a few cons....but with a little insight and careful attention to details..Spectra lines are truly amazing when it come to telegraphing "feel" to the handle or handles of either your kite or in our case..stunt model.

KEEP IN MIND!

Although Spectra is very low stretch...ALL SPECTRA LINES MUST BE PRE-STRETCHED. Not only once after cutting and sleeving...but also before each flying session.
1. When winding up spectra lines after flying...always take the twist the lines and try not to wind them too tightly onto the spools or card winders (other wise...you may find that one line may not be the same length as before.
FLYING IN HIGH WINDS...or with a plane that PULLS LIKE A RACE HORSE will also effect the line stretch. (Especially if I find myself flying a routine that dictates hard snappy turns in one direction, than another.)
Although the lines may be marked #50 lb. or #90 lb. these lines can FAIL INSTANTLY...due to rubbing (the heat from friction can melt through even larger 300 lb. test lines in an instant)
HUGE CAUTION!
MOST LINE FAILURES ARE CAUSED WHERE KNOTS ARE TIED!!!
FACT!
100 LB. SPECTRA...can be reduced from 50% up to as much as 70% depending on how the knot is tied or not tied.
That is why PROPER SLEEVING IS NOT JUST IMPORTANT..IT IS OF PRIME IMPORTANCE!
Far and away too many flyers...USE OVER SIZED SLEEVING MATERIAL...
Sleeving material should be as small gauge as possible. Using sleeving that is too loose can lead to bunching and shaffing and must be avoided if at all possible.

50lb. line can actually be as strong or stronger than 90lb. line...if the proper sleeving and knotting is down properly.

Attached is a photo of a double knot sleeving that I use..except that I add a drop of instant glue between the flat spot between the two knots.
(Being careful NOT TO ADD TOO MUCH GLUE, just enough to seal the two line spots. This knot has NEVER FAILED at the knot. I have 50lb lines that I have used since 1994.
BOTTOM LINE:
HEAT FROM FRICTION IS THE NUMBER ONE ENEMEEEEEEEEEE' OF SPECTRA LINES!

www.thegreedybrain.com/StuntKiteTips/sleeve.htm

[Frank Sheridan]

So now in addition to tying techniques we have to deal with pre-stretching these lines before each flight? Just what does that entail? Something similar to a pull test? And how long is the pre-stretch good for? If something is claimed to be extremely low stretch line, then why are we stretching it before flight? I'm not trying to be critical, I just have a lot of unknowns here. I'm already sold on the idea for 1/2A lines.

[Richard Grogan]

Hey Don, how long are your stunt kite's flying lines? Seems to me the longer they are, that more stretch would be possible. Is that correct? I know I have flown cheap stunt kites on Dacron, and they stretch pretty good @ around 100 feet or more, requiring extra input to control it than it does closer in.

Sorry Jim, not trying to hijack your here...

[Shultzie]

Hey Don, how long are your stunt kite's flying lines?

Depends one the size and weight of the kite but depending on the wind... I ALWAYS use the lightest gauge spectra as possibe.
 Seems to me the longer they are, that more stretch would be possible.
Is that correct?
Yes..that makes sense...whether the lines are single strand cable...Spectra cheapie dime store dacron..etc.
I enjoy flying kites usually on about 85 ft. and never over 100ft. but again that so much depeds on the kite and the wind speeds.

I know I have flown cheap stunt kites on Dacron, and they stretch pretty good @ around 100 feet or more, requiring extra input to control it than it does closer in.

Sorry Jim, not trying to hijack your here...

You are not hijacking...this is about SPECTRA LINES FOR STUNT MODELS...but stunt kites utilize the same basic principles of control line stunt models.

[Shultzie]

So now in addition to tying techniques we have to deal with pre-stretching these lines before each flight?
NO!  VD~NO! Once the Spectra has been  pre stretched properly...and carefully the stretch is no longer an issue. Only in flying precision kite events...IN HIGH WIND CONDITIONS many picky competitiors ALWAYS CHECK THEIR LINES...SAME GOES FOR COMPETITION STUNT FLYERS..DAAA? It only takes a moment to check the lines for either  sport kites or your handles for control line stunt.
MORE STUNT MODELS HAVE BEEN DESTROYED by folks not double checking their handle adjustments and even some have been known to even hook them UP BACKAZZ WARD, right?

Just what does that entail? Something similar to a pull test? And how long is the pre-stretch good for? If something is claimed to be extremely low stretch line, then why are we stretching it before flight?

Spectra lines ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL...and that is why I recommend  HIGH QUALITY SHANTI COMPETITION LINES. Although they cost more..IN THE LONG RUN they are far and away cheaper since they have extremely low stretch, even when brand new..Plus they are soooo smooth and slick..and in flying mode....this also keep wind drag and reduces line drape which effects not only stunt models....but the average quality  8foot stunt kite usually weighes less than 10 ounces and many of the new age control line stunt model often are over 60 ounces?..

I'm not trying to be critical, I just have a lot of unknowns here.

Bottom line:
The JURY IS STILL VERY MUCH OUT ON USING SPECTRA FIBER FYING LINES...but I can assure ou that after playing around with multi strand stunt model cables...ON MY SPORT KITES. IT WAS LIKE FLYING ON CHAINS...in comparison to flying on quality SHANTI SPECTRA FIBER LINES


I'm already sold on the idea for 1/2A lines.

I will bet ya...that you will be quite pleasantly surprised.

[Scott Hartford]

Where do you get the sleeving material and what is it?

[john e. holliday]

Hey Schultzie,  stunt kites is where my son learned to finally do control line aerobatics.  I think Jeff Johnson is the one who put him on one in Wichita Kansas in a 30 mph breeze.      Now I am making a statement here.  My opinion only.  I do not think if a stunt kite break a line that it will put too many people in danger.  DOC Holliday

[Shultzie]

Hey Schultzie,  stunt kites is where my son learned to finally do control line aerobatics.  I think Jeff Johnson is the one who put him on one in Wichita Kansas in a 30 mph breeze.      Now I am making a statement here.  My opinion only.  I do not think if a stunt kite break a line that it will put too many people in danger.   DOC Holliday

A 9 ounce 8ft Sportkite flying in a high wind can generate considerable line pull...(if a single line snaps) usually the kite will react (if straight down the wind window) will high speed spin into a amazingly tight blur, but it you release the kite straps....in most situations....the kite just stops and flutters down wind...like a leaf until it hits the ground. In most cases no damage to either the kite or an unfortuate spectator is extremely rare. (Even though  I wouldn't want to be hit in the eye or the butt by either a  9 ounce sport kite  or 60+ ounce CLPA stunt model!

Remember..Even those shots you see of  170lb. folks who are kite sailers...that soar up and away
on the end of their #300 lb. Spectra kite lines are makin' fer a breakin' if things should go radically wrong---GO WRONG!...GO WRONG!! OUCH!!!

[Paul Smith]

In the high performance events: Speed, Racing, Carrier, and Combat, it is essential to equalize the lines so as to let the contestants compete based on the merits of engines, airplanes, pilotage, and sometimes, pitting.

To that end, many have events further equalized fuel and even limited competition to specifc engines.

Using dissimilar lines in Combat and Racing is certain trouble.  When the lines get tangled, somebody (the guy with softer  lines) is going free flight.    With equal lines, there's a much better chance of a harmless crash inside the arena.

Opening the choice of lines to what amounts to anarchy is a huge step in the wrong direction.  With the wide variety of sizes, brands, and materials used in fish line, who is quailfied to pass judgment on what you can use?  Do we need to hire a consultant from The Pro Bass Shop to inspect lines and terminations?

Under the current stunt rules, there is effectively no lower limit to the lines you can legally use, so fish line won't be much of a hazard compared to the thin grades of steel lines that are aready permitted.

[don Burke]

"Under the current stunt rules, there is effectively no lower limit to the lines you can legally use..."
Seems like an erroneous statements since MINIMUM line size per model weight is specified in the CLPA rules.

[jim gilmore]

I personally would not hire somebody f4rom the bass pro shop to do much of anything.

[Shultzie]

Where do you get the sleeving material and what is it?

Any kite shop or online kite shop...but I would go to www.cuttingedgekites.com  and tellum...Don Shultz (their old Boeing kite buds sentya')

[Shultzie]

In the high performance events: Speed, Racing, Carrier, and Combat, it is essential to equalize the lines so as to let the contestants compete based on the merits of engines, airplanes, pilotage, and sometimes, pitting.

To that end, many have events further equalized fuel and even limited competition to specifc engines.

Using dissimilar lines in Combat and Racing is certain trouble.  When the lines get tangled, somebody (the guy with softer  lines) is going free flight.    With equal lines, there's a much better chance of a harmless crash inside the arena.

Opening the choice of lines to what amounts to anarchy is a huge step in the wrong direction.  With the wide variety of sizes, brands, and materials used in fish line, who is quailfied to pass judgment on what you can use?  Do we need to hire a consultant from The Pro Bass Shop to inspect lines and terminations?

Under the current stunt rules, there is effectively no lower limit to the lines you can legally use, so fish line won't be much of a hazard compared to the thin grades of steel lines that are aready permitted.

I TOO...WOULD NEVER IN THIS LIFE TIME USE SPECTRA FOR FLYING ANY MULTI AIRCRAFT MODEL EVENTS or rat race or any other control line event where more than one airplane are flying together...since SPECTRA LINES when rubbed or schaffed together, depending on the contact could easily melt SPECTRA LINES...INSTANTLY!

[Paul Smith]

"Under the current stunt rules, there is effectively no lower limit to the lines you can legally use..."
Seems like an erroneous statements since MINIMUM line size per model weight is specified in the CLPA rules.

The key word here is EFFECTIVELY.

There are "minimums" but they as so minimal that they mean nothing. 

[Scott Hartford]

And yet peoples common sense has kept them out of trouble...........

[phil c]

Have to pop in here and bring some actual tests and data to the furor.

Braided Spectra(tm) line is the only stuff to use.  The "fusion" products, such as SpiderWire fusion, which are still around in some stores, is not nearly as shock resistant as the braided stuff.  They will break at the knot pretty easily if a plane gets loose on the lines and hits the end.  I have not done any tests on the monoline line made with various fluorocarbons, but all the test data I've seen(which isn't much) on fishing line says the solid monoline products all have significantly more stretch. 

I just tested(again) some Powerline Fluorescent Yellow, rated at 100 lb.  It has a diameter of about .019 when stretched hard, .020-.022 when not under tension.  Using the sleeve method shown above(using 70 lb. test Dacron hollow line, which is a tight fit) I made a short piece of line up, pre-stretched it to 35 lb. for a minute or so a couple of times, and then pulled it 'til it broke.  It broke at 50 lb. 

I made up a second test piece using a surgeon's knot(a simple double overhand knot with the loop passed through the knot twice).  Prestretched at 35 lb 2-3 times and pull tested it broke at 47lb. 

.018 stainless line, terminated per the rule book either with serving or with crimps, regularly breaks at 50lb. or slightly less at the termination.

I think the overly optimistic ratings on all the fishing lines come from simply calculating what the breaking strength should be from tests done on individual fibers using special test fixtures.  The stuff is supposed to have the same tensile strength or better than the best small diameter music wire.  Small diameter wires have better strength than bulk steel due to the stretching and drawing process used to make them.

As far as line tangles, we flew a dozen or so matches last year with 30lb. Spiderwire(Spectra(tm)) against .012 stainless lines.  After a bunch on line tangles we broke three sets of .012 lines and the two sets of Spectra lines were still fine.  Doesn't seem to be any hint of a problem, but I wouldn't be averse to doing some more testing with larger planes.  Otherwise, flying two planes on Spectra would be no problem.  It can take about 4 times as much sawing as stainless steel lines.

You'll note that the general rules state that the line shall be "steel music wire or metal of equivalent strength".  Stainless steel, at least what we get for control wire, is not equivalent to music wire.  4 strand F2D lines, made from brass-plated  music wire, are .016 diameter and will generally break at 65lb.  Compare that to .018 stainless lines breaking at 50 lb. or less. If they were equivalent to music wire they should break around 82lb.  A 25% difference doesn't look nearly equivalent to me.  Unfortunately music wire lines are even more subject to fatigue than stainless lines and also are subject to corrosion hidden in the terminations and would probably be even more marginal than the current lines used for stunt.

Spectra(tm) "fabric" lines have two huge advantages over steel of any sort.  They aren't subject to kinking and they don't fatigue.  Other pluses, they are available in bright colors, they don't cost more, and they weigh about 1/10 of what steel lines weigh, so the plane can be trimmed to fly even better.  They aren't massive enough to whip around like steel lines do.

[Shultzie]

Have to pop in here and bring some actual tests and data to the furor.

Braided Spectra(tm) line is the only stuff to use.  The "fusion" products, such as SpiderWire fusion, which are still around in some stores, is not nearly as shock resistant as the braided stuff.  They will break at the knot pretty easily if a plane gets loose on the lines and hits the end.  I have not done any tests on the monoline line made with various fluorocarbons, but all the test data I've seen(which isn't much) on fishing line says the solid monoline products all have significantly more stretch.  

I just tested(again) some Powerline Fluorescent Yellow, rated at 100 lb.  It has a diameter of about .019 when stretched hard, .020-.022 when not under tension.  Using the sleeve method shown above(using 70 lb. test Dacron hollow line, which is a tight fit) I made a short piece of line up, pre-stretched it to 35 lb. for a minute or so a couple of times, and then pulled it 'til it broke.  It broke at 50 lb.  

I made up a second test piece using a surgeon's knot(a simple double overhand knot with the loop passed through the knot twice).  Prestretched at 35 lb 2-3 times and pull tested it broke at 47lb.  

.

Yes! Spectra lines will USUALLY "MOST OF THE TIME" BREAK AT A KNOT...and any knot will reduce the strength even as much as 50%.
Interesting test...but again TIME HAS PROVEN to the majority of Competition Kite flyers that
SHANTI PRO LINE IS STILL THE NUMBER ONE CHOICE...for not only stretch resistance..but for its quality. So many spectra lines have numberous mfg. flaws...and weak spots. and many sources sell "aftermarket" lower quality lines at prices that are virtually the same as the more expensive SHANTI LINE.
Why risk either a trashed $400.00 sport kite or a brand new competition stunt model...by saving a buck or two on "NO NAME LINES"
I am not alone when I say most kite flyers stay away from SPIDERWIRE like the plaque. Inspection and quality...just tain't the same and isn't worth the risk.
Why mess with success?

Also preferred choices are only two other brands that are also NOT FISHIN' LINES but are made to exceptional standards also and they are: www.kitelife.com/forum/index.php.showtopic=1429
LASER PRO GOLD and CLIMAX...
The rest of the stuff is just a "turkey shoot!"
opps..I will reattach the kite life story on line quality and brands.

[ray copeland]

When you are referring to "Spiderwire" are you talking about Spiderwire brand Stealth High Performance Braid? That is what i have been using for a couple of years now and is available at most sporting good stores including Wallyworld..

[Shultzie]

When you are referring to "Spiderwire" are you talking about Spiderwire brand Stealth High Performance Braid? That is what i have been using for a couple of years now and is available at most sporting good stores including Wallyworld..

Any thing with the name SPIDER WIRE has always sounded  fishy to me and my old kite buds SPIDER .Stealth High Preformance braid, I personally haven't tried any lines lately that are designed for fishing. Many of the top mfg. of sport kites..have carefully tested many many brands of Spectra and so far I tend to feel the same way they do.
SPECTRA FISHING LINES...ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL...and SPIDER WIRE just hasn't been huge on their list of recommendations?

One persons trash...I guess can also be another persons..treasure?

[minnesotamodeler]

All I know is, I've been using Spiderwire, and more recently Spectra, in the 10# to 16# range for my up-to-.061 planes for several years now (since 2003 at least), including combat, with no problems. I have sets that date back almost to the beginning that I still use.  I've broken some, sure; I've broken 7strand SS .018s too--lost my best .40 Rat motor that way when the "up" line broke, left a crater in Lubbock Tx. asphalt flying circle.  Looking for unbreakable lines will be a long, long search. The fishing lines mentioned serve me well. 

[tom hampshire]

     I have worked with Phil C for a good while to try and get experience with Spectra.  His background in materials science is a major plus.  There are 2 things that have not yet been said.  First, Spectra has an obvious and major electric advantage over steel in terms of both lightning strikes and static.
     Spectra seems to be totally nonconductive.  As far as I can tell with 110 volt informal testing, a VOM reveals no conductivity at that voltage.  My guess is that at lightning voltages, it might be that Spectra with moisture offers an ionization path, so conductivity might not matter much.  This means that the shock hazard for those few who insist on flying during thunderstorms is lessened, but not eliminated.   I'd ask Don Schultz to give us the benefit of his experience with kites as to shock hazard.   A great and separate advantage is that the lines tend to attract much less dirt due to static charge.  The extent to which this reduces sliding friction has yet to be studied.
     The second secret is that at present the AMA has a structural problem in the makeup of the contest boards for controline.  When the boards were broken up by events, no provision was made for any board to have jurisdiction over the CL General section of the rulebook.  So when the general Spectra proposal was made, instead of having a vote on the general proposal, it was broken up by events, and the present scattershot approach resulted.  So we are now left with the requirement that all lines be made of steel, Sec. 2, p.CLG-2, 2009 rules. (The present combat rule is an exception specific to that event.)   Of course this renders extralegal all of the dacron line sets which have been sold for 50 years for half A use.  Other than at a combat contest, it also leaves anyone who wants to experiment with Spectra in the position of facing a potential denial of insurance coverage by the AMA.  To be sure, the AMA has a very good track record of settling claims without leaving a member high and dry.  But I'd rather see the rules fit the reality of life at the flying field.
     I have attempted to address this by letter to the AMA staff, copy attached.  No answer or comment as yet.  If any reader wishes to bring this to the attention of their respective District VP or contest board member, they are cordially invited to do so.  Until the rule is addressed, then all of us should choose our experiment locations with great care.  Comment welcome, Tom H.

[john e. holliday]

Could not get the document to down load to this computor.  DOC Holliday

[Shultzie]

     I have worked with Phil C for a good while to try and get experience with Spectra.  His background in materials science is a major plus.  There are 2 things that have not yet been said.  First, Spectra has an obvious and major electric advantage over steel in terms of both lightning strikes and static.
     Spectra seems to be totally nonconductive.  As far as I can tell with 110 volt informal testing, a VOM reveals no conductivity at that voltage.  My guess is that at lightning voltages, it might be that Spectra with moisture offers an ionization path, so conductivity might not matter much.  This means that the shock hazard for those few who insist on flying during thunderstorms is lessened, but not eliminated.   I'd ask Don Schultz to give us the benefit of his experience with kites as to shock hazard.    A great and separate advantage is that the lines tend to attract much less dirt due to static charge.  The extent to which this reduces sliding friction has yet to be studied.
   

FIRST.
SHOCK HAZARDS STILL EXISTS...even with Spectra lines.
 For example:
A few years ago while flying masters choro at Longbeach...A thunderstorm was forming just a short distance off shore....and we had to delay our event due to static electricity that was bothering a few of the previous flyers.

I was the last contestant to fly my choro event before the delay.

 Numerous times during my routine....the sparse hairs on my head would stand straight out and I was getting some pretty  sizable tingling in my hands....even though the storm was still quite a distance off shore.
Our staging area and flying site was very loose soft sand...but as soon as I kicked off my tennis shoes and flew the remainder of my flight but  for some reason...ALL THE STATIC ELECTRICITY completely stopped.

Over the years in flying stunt...I keep hearing from some of my more schooled engineering types..that as long as we allow our lines access to the ground..(either steel flying lines or perhaps spectra) this hopefully would keep the static electricity from building up enough to do damage. However personally I WOULDN'T RISK  BETTIN' BY BRITCHES OR LIFE ON IT?

 Static Electricity is truly very unpredictably DANGEROUS, EVEN WITH SPECTA LINES....and YES! I have heard many times...stories about sport kites being fried, even though the kite itself never came in actual contact with either power lines.  Perhaps moisture was the factor...I just don't know?
 During a summer storm at Cannon Beach..the newspaper reported that a single line "sky laundry kite" that was still in the air was set on fire by a lighting bolt. I would  imagine that the kite line was the cheaper dacron...but again I have no way of knowing.

HOWEVER..A VERY INTERESTING...that specta fiber lines are non-conductive? Humm...until we add moisture from the air or ground. Remember the humidity in summer can reach some pretty dangerous levels...
  ~^and YES! SPECTRA LINE ABSORB MOISTURE VERY EASILY?

[tom hampshire]

     Thanx, Don.  Tom H.

[Shultzie]

Don't know if that helps or not.
Bottom line:
Personally I feel that steel control lines after all these years and especially in this new high tech world...truly THERE MUST BE SOMETHING FAR AND AWAY BETTER than steel lines.

Kevlar and Spectra seem like a pretty good place to start.

Especially from the low stretch...reduced weight...far less line drag-drape but more importantly that all important ability to FEEL what that CLPA model is trying to telegraphn down those lines. and much lower friction...plus Shanti is so slippery that you can do many many loops and wraps without effecting the control feel and input. Try that with either braided cable or single strand steel lines.
Once the learning curve in how to use and maintain these new age lines...then I still feel that
these lines could actually be far and away SAFTER to use...than any kind of steel flying lines.
TRUST THIS...
In all these years of flying sportkites...
  :!I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANY SERIOUS COMPETITION KITE FLYER EVER USING STEEL FLYING LINES?
Ya gotta ask yourself...WHY?
After you fly with spectra.... at least to me...the answer is pretty simple!

[phil c]

Shultzie-

Shanti kite line is made out of Spectra:
"Made with 100% Spectra 1000 fiber. Shanti line's exceptionally smooth braided". Some of the fishing lines are either all or partly Spectra 2000, which is smaller fibers, since you can't braid really small lines with the larger 1000 denier fibers.

It is quite a bit more expensive than fishing lines- $29 for 300 ft. vs. $42 or so for 300 yds. of  Power Pro 100 lb. test.

Tom H.  the safety code requires us to inspect and pull test the lines prior to flying, using either the event rules for the model, or the PA pull test rules for planes not in another category.  No mention of steel lines, or stainless steel, or fabric.  Just the pull test.  Since the pull tests for most of the events(except monoline speed) give you a safety factor of at least 2(the pull test is generally a bit less than the breaking strength of one line) any of the materials is adequately safe.  If you want to be really careful, pull test each line separately to the required load.

A couple of the companies are now selling hollow core Spectra line, which might work well for knotless loops that might get closer to the rated strength.  A couple others are putting a braid around a center core which may be stronger too.

[Shultzie]

Shultzie-

Shanti kite line is made out of Spectra:
"

DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

[john e. holliday]

Control yourself Schultzie,  I know it is getting a little far fetched.  DOC Holliday

[Rod Lamer]

Spectra may be the line of choice for many of you because you have no experience with fishing lines. As a LONG time fisherman I can tell you that pound for pound Spectra is about 10% stronger than Spiderwire. NOw with that said I have been using #50 Spiderwire Fusion on my big fish freshwater reels for 3 years now and have not had to replace it yet. I'm due. The Fusion has a polymer coating on it to keep line guide wear down, and to make longer casts. Many of you will have doubts about this stuff, but I am here to tell you #50 Spiderwire Fusion will bring in a #90+ pound Blue cat and not even budge. Some say that most breaks occur at the knot, true and not true. It depends on what knot you use and what it is attached to. A palomar knot IS 100% knot strength at the knot. Only the Berkely knot is 100% strong at the knot, unless you talk to some oldtimers at the docks near saltwater charter boats. I did not have time to read all the posts on this thread and I am sure there is some hesitation about this line but rest assured, Come look at all the photos we have of the monsters we pull out of the deep on a regular basis. If #50 Fusion last longer than 3 years outside in the elements think about how long it will last on a C/L model. 

[Rod Lamer]

My bad, my Siderwire I use is Stealth, not Fusion. Just thought I would correct that.