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Author Topic: Spectra Connectors  (Read 10078 times)

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #100 on: September 18, 2018, 01:54:49 PM »
Thanks - If what I found is correct, this was the ONLY CLPA  proposed change and it will be about  2 years before it can be voted on again.  Even the Federal Government can mess things up faster than that!

Looks like the only solution is to see if there is enough support locally to publish a rules exception for our sanctions and hope others do the same.  If I read the procedures correctly, we could have gotten an "emergency" clarification over the "Brand" issue if it had just passed.

   I don't think that constitutes an emergency in any sense of the word. The effect would have been "no change" to the existing legal equipment, it's not a safety crisis (since we all think the existing lines are fine) and not using Spectra does not cause a safety issue. There is not crisis that requires us to switch to Spectra lines, the rule, even if passed, would have been a "no=op" (non-operation, no effect). 

     Brett

Offline Trostle

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #101 on: September 18, 2018, 02:02:36 PM »
    Sport pilot...NOT a competitor but do have a strong opinion

RULES only have 2(two) reasons to exist
Safety
Level the playing field

In this case for all Control Line aero flights...speed, racing, combat, stunt....The product, termination, Sizes per aircraft weight or engine displacement, best practices, storage, all should be AMA RECOMMENDATIONS

For competition...each type of contest should have pull test, or other test, that is scientific, physics, and positively passes the Reasonable use in some civil liability court.....WE are not in the game to preserve some competitors air craft...we are ALL in the game to ensure we do NOT damage property or Kill other humans

I personally think the current pull test spec is NOT rational.... very very few fly away events from just Hi Gee round round flight
The disaster is usually: a blown across the circle, loose, uncontrolled, craft...that suddenly reaches the end of the tether...many many Gees higher than the pull test....

Most I have seen (combat) only broke one line so the craft was still controlled in a ever tightening loop spin, ultimately into the ground

In fact, in my resurgence in to aero modeling I have seen way more AMA insurance disaster in the RC community that the CL community

Combat on fishing line has more pluses than minuses

Competition Stunt PAMPA should have open enough rules to make the sport more competitive...Control line engineering has been evolving ever since the C/L flight invention....

The rules should mandate a safety standard and be open to---or  well written enough that

Fred's new fangled, anti gravity, anti static, .03 dia, .05 Gram per meter, 150Lb breaking stress test with 201% redundant fiber over load rating, and only .003" stretch per 100 yards are usable as long as the SAFETY standard for the EVENT is proved BY test at the EVENT
 

OK, you say that you are a sport pilot.  From a sport pilot's perspective, you bring up some points that need a response.  My discussion below pertains primarily to CLPA, NOT Combat or Racing or Speed or Carrier.

Line sizes and type used in any event should be governed by RULES, not "REDCOMDATIONS".  Maybe I am missing the point you are trying to make there.

For competition, indeed we have standards for our lines based on some logic.  These standards are based on the notion that safety is paramount to reduce the chance of damage to property or physical injury.  Basically, the standard for our two line systems commonly used in CLPA is to provide a safety factor of 2 if one line is broken for whatever reason.  (The issue of combat fly aways is not a factor in CLPA.)  One line failures, though rare, do occur in CLPA.  A cables in a control handle can fail.  A a single leadout can fail.  A single line can have a flawfrom any number of reasons than can cause it to fail under flight loads.  I have seen many instances of these failures, both in flight or such a failure occurs in the pull test.  At least if the failure is during a pull test, the model is not totally destroyed and might be able to still fly.  Maybe that simple safety factor does not sound very "scientific" but it has served the event well for many years.

You state that you have seen "way more insurance disaster in the RC community that [sic] the CL community".  Interesting comment.  Evidently, this is based only on your personal experience.  Have you asked the AMA where the most insurance claims come from and what the most expensive claims are?  I have not seen any recent statistics, but over the years, I have seen AMA material that shows the most expensive insurance claims have come from the control line community.

You state that fishing line for Combat has more pluses than minuses.   That is fine for Combat, and they have rules that allow such lines that evidently is enforceable and that works for them.  The proposal that failed the Final Vote by the CLACB was not enforceable, even after it was modified in an effort to make it so.  Maybe we can learn something from the Combat community on this.

You state the "Competition Stunt PAMPA should have open enough rules to make the sport more competitive..."  Are you suggesting that there is "something" in our rules that keep the event from being more competitive.  If so, what is that "something" or what are those "somethings" if there is more than one "something".  Design, construction techniques, materials, propulsion technology, propellers, trimming techniques, finishing, and structures have all been evolving over the years where the modern competitive CLPA represents a fair amount of sophistication (as in "more competitive") compared to what was being flown in the not too distant past.  I am not aware of anything in our rules that has hindered such evolution to be "more competitive."  At least you make a correct observation that "Control line engineering has been evolving ever since the C/L flight invention...."  But I do not think our rules have hindered that evolution as it seems you are suggesting.

Keith

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #102 on: September 18, 2018, 02:10:07 PM »
I'm not sure why the dyneema based lines need so much more regulating than metal. Has there been historically a higher percentage of line breaks?

   As far as I know, there is zero statistical history either way. We have been using stainless steel stranded lines for 70 years, we have good information on that. I am not aware of any more than brief tests of Spectra on actual full stunt planes.

 Lack of any useful statistics causes people to get nervous, and a lot of people grossly overestimate the value of statistics. 70 years and tens of millions of flights probably tells you something, a few hundred in controlled conditions by only experts in the field don't.

Quote
I get why the preposal was turned down. It was unsupportable by the CD as written.

As Brett suggested, why not just have guidelines and a pull test, and call it good?

  I would hasten to add - I am far from the first person to have that idea. The last time I was involved with a discussion about it, it was stated that some mysterious AMA group wouldn't permit it (particularly, wouldn't permit removing the diameter requirements) but that was a long time ago.

   What I wouldn't want to see is someone permitting the pull test to be the sole requirement - but then turning around and increasing the test "to be safer". We ended up with that for the synthetic handle "ropes", based on nothing aside from someone being scared about it, and no real engineering analysis (and more-or-less with a gun to our heads, and some, frankly, absurd theories over what they were attempting to accomplish).

 I could probably tolerate a 15G pull test for Spectra but a 10G pull test for metal, but there's nothing to justify that, either, it would just make someone feel better.

I contend that increasing the pull test could easily "decrease" the overall safety, testing the lines in a static sense and checking for slipping knots - but also over-stressing or  fatiguing the other parts to create a failure that would not otherwise have happened.

   This may be one of those "be careful what you wish for" or "too clever by half" deals if we aren't careful about it.

      Brett

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #103 on: September 18, 2018, 02:14:05 PM »
    Sport pilot...NOT a competitor but do have a strong opinion

   If you are a sport flier, the only rule is the Safety Code, and it says nothing about line material or diameter, it only specifies a pull-test (defaulting to the 10G stunt pull test if it is not obviously in some other competition category). So you can do whatever you want. That's the basis on which I have been testing Spectra lines.

     Brett

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #104 on: September 18, 2018, 02:42:43 PM »
   I don't think that constitutes an emergency in any sense of the word. The effect would have been "no change" to the existing legal equipment, it's not a safety crisis (since we all think the existing lines are fine) and not using Spectra does not cause a safety issue. There is not crisis that requires us to switch to Spectra lines, the rule, even if passed, would have been a "no=op" (non-operation, no effect). 

     Brett
I used emergency but I really meant Interpretation.  My bad.

I still do not have an answer to the basic question, why did the rule fail?  Was it because it was poorly worded (which it was) or because 5 members did not want us using Spectra in competition?  If even one of the 5 did not like the wording then we can get the rule properly worded and resubmitted, the second means we need to address issues but without knowing exactly why each of the 5 voted against it we have nothing to fix.

Ken
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Offline Target

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #105 on: September 18, 2018, 06:35:46 PM »
I never said anything about an increase in the pull test. Nor would i ask for it.
If fact, I'm wondering where exactly the 10g figure was arrived at, specifically because i also wonder if 100's of 10g tests don't decrease the life of the plane/control system at some point. I guess the idea is that the failure happens on the ground, but it's still a failure. What if a plane could take 9g's forever, but 10g's dislodges the bellcrank slightly? Now you've just caused a problem and not prevented it.
So, my point is, nothing is 100% safe, and who decided on 10g's and how was that arrived at?

Thanks Brett.

R,
Target
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #106 on: September 18, 2018, 07:14:36 PM »
I never said anything about an increase in the pull test. Nor would i ask for it.
If fact, I'm wondering where exactly the 10g figure was arrived at, specifically because i also wonder if 100's of 10g tests don't decrease the life of the plane/control system at some point. I guess the idea is that the failure happens on the ground, but it's still a failure. What if a plane could take 9g's forever, but 10g's dislodges the bellcrank slightly? Now you've just caused a problem and not prevented it.
So, my point is, nothing is 100% safe, and who decided on 10g's and how was that arrived at?

Thanks Brett.

R,
Target

You are asking some real intelligent questions?  "I also wonder if...."  and "What if..."  Why not try something constructive and come up with a logical, technically sound approach to revise the pull test requirements to accomplish whatever you are trying to accomplish.  The current system has worked fairly well for the past 50+ years.  There is not much on the record, if any, that control systems have been compromised after repetitive pull tests.  There are plenty of incidents where pull tests have isolated/prevented inflight accidents.  So what is it that you are trying to change/improve?  As was mentioned before, our line sizes/line lengths are based on providing a safety factor of two where one line has failed.  The airplane may be destroyed, but it will remain tethered.  The 10G pull test has been shown over time to adequately test the system.

So what if a bellcrank is "dislodged" somewhat during a pull test?  The damage may be unnoticed but the controls fail somehow in flight.  The model will probably remain tethered and the plane crashes.  Shame on the pilot for building a weak spot in his model.   The 10G requirement is a known entity and the control system should be designed and built around that factor.

Now, if you really want to get particular, why not question the methods used at most contests to administer the pull test.  In many cases, fish scales of some kind are use and the procedure probably only gives something in the neighborhood of +/- 10% anyway.  Even the graduated lever arms/pulley systems used at some contests are prone to inaccuracies.  Maybe your concerns should be channeled in that direction, but you as a sport flier probably have little or no interest or concern there.

It is OK to question, but why not come up with something constructive in the process?

Keith

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #107 on: September 18, 2018, 07:45:31 PM »
I never said anything about an increase in the pull test. Nor would i ask for it.
If fact, I'm wondering where exactly the 10g figure was arrived at, specifically because i also wonder if 100's of 10g tests don't decrease the life of the plane/control system at some point. I guess the idea is that the failure happens on the ground, but it's still a failure. What if a plane could take 9g's forever, but 10g's dislodges the bellcrank slightly? Now you've just caused a problem and not prevented it.
So, my point is, nothing is 100% safe, and who decided on 10g's and how was that arrived at?

Thanks Brett.


    It's intended to provide a ~2x safety margin over the pull test with one line failed. The line sizes are chosen the same way, using the industry-standard strength for the cables or wires .

   A 4 lb (64 ounce) airplane pulls about 10-ish lbs, nominally, in level flight. The pull test is 10Gs, os 40 lbs. That means, during the pull test, the lines are tested to 20 lbs each - ~2x the normal load, even if a line fails. The accepted industry standard strength for .015 seven-strand wire rope is 40 lbs, so a single line could hypothetically pass the pull test, and even in a failure, it sees 1/4 of the normal test strength.

    1.5x and 2X are common margins in the aerospace industry. It's a reasonable safety factor for cases where the performance is sensitive to weight, without being crippling to the function.

     It also happens to be about what people have been using for 60-70 years with demonstrated acceptable safety. Not that it can never break, but the failure rate is so low in normal conditions and even most extreme conditions that material overstress failures are almost unheard of, and most failures due to all causes are caught during the pull test. I think I have seen only one failure in flight after passing a regular pull test in maybe 50 years of flying model airplanes, and while I am sure there are some, it's rare enough to be negligible.

    I mention the extra pull issue because that's how we "solved" the last similar example of something like this - based on more-or-less no engineering reasoning at all, but just because it seemed to feel better to some people.


     Brett

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #108 on: September 18, 2018, 09:01:20 PM »
Well since I will not be using lines I can't compete with I guess my original question is moot but I sure would like to know why 5 committee members voted against it.   Enough of this till January when we can try and draft something that will pass.  I need to move on to more important things - should I use red or white Monokote on my winter practice plane.

Ken
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #109 on: September 18, 2018, 09:49:30 PM »
Well since I will not be using lines I can't compete with I guess my original question is moot but I sure would like to know why 5 committee members voted against it.   Enough of this till January when we can try and draft something that will pass.  I need to move on to more important things - should I use red or white Monokote on my winter practice plane.

Ken


You also previously commented:  "Was it because it was poorly worded (which it was) or because 5 members did not want us using Spectra in competition?"

I cannot speak for all members of the board or why they voted the way they did.  I can speak for one member of the board.   There is certainly no feeling that Spectra should not be used in competition.  After all, it has been used for several years now in Combat. 

As has been mentioned several times now, the proposed rule would have been unenforceable.  It is not logical to approve a rule that cannot be enforced.  There was an attempt to improve the wording of the proposal.  That is when the revised proposal appeared.  Even with the rewrite, the thing still would not have been enforceable.  There are issues with using these GSUMP lines.   One is that there are problems with tying the ends.  Not done properly, the ends can slip or break.  Yes, the Combat community is evidently making these things work.  But what is the longevity of a set of lines used in Combat compared to how lines are used in CLPA where a set of lines is often used over countless flights (years)?  Will those line terminations prove to be adequate after prolonged use?  I am not aware of any positive answer to that question.  In other words, there are several factors that need to be addressed before GSUMP lines should be allowed for CLPA competition.   This certainly does not prevent enthusiasts working to find answers and advising the Contest Board of their findings.  This would include drafting a proposal that can be enforced as well as showing life expectancy of a set of lines in terms of usage.

For your information, you do not have to wait until January to submit a change proposal for the 2019-2020 rules change cycle.

Keith

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #110 on: September 18, 2018, 11:32:55 PM »

You also previously commented:  "Was it because it was poorly worded (which it was) or because 5 members did not want us using Spectra in competition?"

I cannot speak for all members of the board or why they voted the way they did.  I can speak for one member of the board.   There is certainly no feeling that Spectra should not be used in competition.  After all, it has been used for several years now in Combat. 

As has been mentioned several times now, the proposed rule would have been unenforceable.  It is not logical to approve a rule that cannot be enforced.  There was an attempt to improve the wording of the proposal.  That is when the revised proposal appeared.  Even with the rewrite, the thing still would not have been enforceable.  There are issues with using these GSUMP lines.   One is that there are problems with tying the ends.  Not done properly, the ends can slip or break.  Yes, the Combat community is evidently making these things work.  But what is the longevity of a set of lines used in Combat compared to how lines are used in CLPA where a set of lines is often used over countless flights (years)?  Will those line terminations prove to be adequate after prolonged use?  I am not aware of any positive answer to that question.  In other words, there are several factors that need to be addressed before GSUMP lines should be allowed for CLPA competition.   This certainly does not prevent enthusiasts working to find answers and advising the Contest Board of their findings.  This would include drafting a proposal that can be enforced as well as showing life expectancy of a set of lines in terms of usage.

For your information, you do not have to wait until January to submit a change proposal for the 2019-2020 rules change cycle.

Keith

Thank you.  This is the kind of thoughtful explanation I was looking for.  The knot issue can be addressed but your point about aging is well taken.  We do need research on that one.  It is my guess, and it is only a guess, that they will actually outlast steel but that can only be proven by using them.  Some may chose to use them enough to give us some real input and just not compete.  I cannot fly enough to be one of them so I will stay with steel.  They are different enough that practicing with them is not a good idea if you are going to compete with steel.

Again - Thanks
Ken

Ken
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #111 on: September 19, 2018, 11:08:36 AM »
There are issues with using these GSUMP lines.   One is that there are problems with tying the ends.  Not done properly, the ends can slip or break.  Yes, the Combat community is evidently making these things work.  But what is the longevity of a set of lines used in Combat compared to how lines are used in CLPA where a set of lines is often used over countless flights (years)?  Will those line terminations prove to be adequate after prolonged use? 

    We ought to think that out a bit - we don't explicitly specify the use of the "AMA Recommended" stainless line terminations. It says:

"Line construction shall be as per the methods described in Figures 1 through 4. The Contest Director may allow alternate line terminations if he can satisfy himself that they are at least as strong as those shown. " 

    In the case of UHMWPE fibers, it seems far more likely that alternate knots will be developed or known that are stronger and less prone to slipping than for new terminations are going to be found for stainless. I think the same sort of wording should be applied. Knots that are not acceptable will quickly get weeded out by the competitors.

     I also think we are getting bogged down in the minutiae of the wording a bit. The failed proposal appears to attempt to specify particular materials that are not, near as a can tell, in any way defined by acknowledged engineering standards organizations, but by proprietary processes, and are in no way traceable as to provenance or authenticity. In any case, we don't do that for either music wire, whatever is sold as "music wire" that we get at a hobby shop, or for stainless steel stranded lines. I have had .018 stranded that failed at 65 lbs consistently (more than the "standard" 55 lbs) and I have had .018 stranded fail at 35 lbs. What was the difference? I have no idea, they looked and felt "funky" to me so I test them, and sure enough, they were weaker than normal.  No one really examines the terminations at a contest, and what do you want to bet that if I go out to the field on Sunday and find almost every stranded line termination with a single wrap around the eyelet instead of the "specified" two? 

     In fact, we have gone out of our way to permit materials that do not meet the original definition of "single strand wire" from the general section to permit something that is accepted to be weaker  or even much weaker in absolute modulus, because we figure it OK based on lengthy experience, it's strong enough - and much less prone to corrosion than the "specified material".

    We count on catching this by both experience (modelers weeding out bad workmanship and bad practices - the hard way) and the pull test.

     I see no reason why this shouldn't be applied to nonmetallic lines, too. We have the pull test as the last safety check, and for all intents and purposes, allow almost anything that looks like wire and it about the right size, and despite specifying a lot of stuff, make no real attempt to verify the materials standards. If we attempt to somehow become sticklers on the engineering properties and workmanship with respect to non-metallic lines, we will never get there. The failed proposal illustrates the difficulty - near impossibility, in fact - of going that route. Unless we want to test the materials ourselves, pay for a standards organization to test every single reel, and then sell it, or something like that, we will never get there, it's going to prove hopeless. And it's unnecessary, in my opinion.

     The solution is quite simple and has no effect on safety at contests, or safety code - simply allow ANYTHING in terms of lines, no material, sizes, metal or not, and just count on the pull test to weed it out. That has no effect on safety (since all that is required is a pull test for safety code). We already allow that at the Team Trials, which are in compliance with the safety code (now) since we pull test to 10G just like always.    It might have an effect on performance, but if someone is dumb enough to fly a 70-ounce piped airplane on .012 stranded, they deserve what happens (impossible precision) as long as it stays together through the pull test. That way, we don't pretend that we are holding some engineering standards that we in fact are not holding even now.

    What prevents such an approach? If I was to propose that tomorrow, would it be rejected out of hand? Last time I suggest this, it was stated by some people that "the AMA wouldn't permit it" meaning perhaps that some super-committee that I don't know about has a veto.

      Brett
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 01:08:07 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Doug Stout

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #112 on: September 19, 2018, 11:25:18 AM »
As a former control line precision aerobatic competitor in the 1970s, who transitioned into dual line stunt kites in the 1990s and single line glider kites in the 2010s, I have been using high quality spectra line for many years with no issues.  The following is provided as a point of reference for your consideration.

For the kiting industry, the spectra we use has a smoother weave to reduce friction for our dual line and quad line kites, such as what would be desired for control line.  When I competed with dual line stunt kites in the 1990s, we would check the line ware and could feel the line resistance after many flights, which indicates it was time to change the lines.  Please note that we use significant and aggressive arm movements to perform maneuvers with our multi-line kites that would never be experienced in control line.  On a rare occasion I would have a line break, usually at the sleeve knot.  Since spectra has a lower melting point when compared to Dacron, we have to be careful at Kite Festivals, when a single line kite using Dacron accidentally may drift into our area.  The Dacron line can easily cut through Spectra line due to friction. 

We usually have reasonable control with over 5 wraps in one direction.  Following what is the standard in the kiting industry, I sleeve the ends with Dacron for my dual line kites.  The fly line is connected to our kites and straps using a Larkshead knot.   I have spectra flying line sets from the 1990s that I still use to this day, in weights of 50, 80, 120, 150, 200 and 300 lb., in length sets of 100, 120 and 140 feet.  The weight and length are selected based on the wind conditions.

My stunt kite designs use a leach line that I introduced in 1991, which keeps the trailing edge of the sail totally silent.  As a result, I also use the weight and length of the flying lines to assist in speed control for high wind conditions.  As a point of reference, my dual line stunt kites I used in the in the 1990s had wing spans of 8 feet, around 1,200 sq.in of project sail area, but only weighed between 6 and 13 oz. based on the wrapped carbon frame that I used.  For competition, I had three models of the same kite with different frame set, to cover the range of wind conditions.  Since we fly our kites with the sail area facing the wind, the pull can be quite excessive during higher wind conditions and we vent our sails to reduce the project sail area.

For my ultra-light single line glider kites, I use PowerPro braided fishing line that was indicated in this discussion thread.  The reason is this part of the kiting industry market is too small for spectra in weights of 5 and 10 lb.  Since there are no line wraps with single line kites, the smoothness of the line is only of concern to achieve low profile draft during flight.  My indoor ultra-light single line glider kites with wing spans of 18, 24 and 36 inches only weigh between 1.2 and 9.0 grams.  For these ultra-light glider kites that have very little tension on the flying line during a climb or maneuver, we do not sleeve the ends of the flying lines.  We use a 1/2 in. release loop and an overhand knot to create a 2 to 3 inch loop, where a Larkshead knot is used to connect the bridle on the kite.

The above is solely provide to indicate what other are doing with flying platforms using Spectra line for control and not to distract from the discussion in this thread.

Doug
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #113 on: September 19, 2018, 11:37:17 AM »
When I competed with dual line stunt kites in the 1990s, we would check the line ware and could feel the line resistance after many flights, which indicates it was time to change the lines. 

  Same thing happens with Stainless Steel solids, they are good for about 50 flights, they get "frosted-looking" at the airplane end, and draggy, so you swap ends and run it another 50 flights. Then you give them to Derek and say, "these are good, they only have about 100 flights on them". The last part is optional, of course, but recommended.

   The reason they look "frosted" is clear if you look at them under a microscope, they micro-weld themselves together which then results in the material of one line getting yanked out and being deposited on the other line. My dad told me to look for that (after years of managing stiff wire as a machine designer for Westinghouse and North American Philips) and sure enough, there were a bunch of mountains and craters.

     Brett

Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #114 on: September 19, 2018, 05:41:19 PM »
The 100lb reference is because that is what is required for Combat. For other models refer to the AMA chart.   5.3.5.1 Spectra Lines
Lines made of Spectra fiber, made of gel spun ultra-high
molecular weight polyethylene are permitted for sport
flying and demonstration purposes. Spectra lines are not
permitted in competition unless the specific rules for the
event flown expressly permit such use. The use of high
visibility yellow lines is recommended, but not required.
For sport and demonstration flying with two lines, Spectra
lines shall have the following strengths:
Aircraft Engine Watts Rated
Weight Displacement Spectra St.
24 oz. .09 300 20 lbs. .010”
40 oz. .25 450 40 lbs. .013”
64 oz. .40 600 60 lbs. .016”
75 oz. .75 750 100 lbs. .018”

 Hello

Trying to draft up a guide to allowing the use of Spectra style line in New Zealand and noticed that the AMA has used a differing pull factor which starts at 13G goes to 16G, 15G then 21.3G for sports flying. I suppose they have allowed an extra margin for loss of strength in the knot but why there is a difference in safety margins. Why not stick with 15G or 13G and use it to decide maximum model weights per line test strength? Also why top out at 75 oz ?
I have drawn up a chart to help uses decide maximum weights for commonly available lines (10, 15, 20, 40, 50, 65, 80 and 100lb) but the AMA has confused me!
Also are line terminations governed/set or recommended for Spectra (ie AMA Uni-Knot vs Palomar Knot and Modified Surgeons Knots)?
It is interesting to read of Doug Stout's use of Spectra since the 1990's and this helps answer durability questions.
Thanks
Regards Gerald  #^

Offline phil c

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #115 on: September 19, 2018, 06:27:28 PM »
Thanks, Brett, for posting the pdf. I have seen that previously, but I'm still perplexed by the GSUMP "requirement" in the pull test chart since the text started out referring to "Spectra". We still don't know what brand to buy or where to obtain it. Boxes of fishing line just don't say "GSUMP". They may say "Spectra" or "Dyneema". Is there a difference between those two? Vague memory reminds me that "Spectra" is 'Murican and "Dyneema" is European? But is it the same stuff? IDK. 

It looks to me like the user is responsible for knowing what the line material is, and since none of the braided line boxes are going to say "GSUMP" on them, I'll just go ahead and call BS on the proposal as written, until somebody can 'splain why, what & where. If it was written as "Spectra" or "Spectra or Dyneema", ok fine. Since Chris and Brent posted before I got this done, there are no brands specified in the proposal. Seems to me, that makes all of them illegal, unless you find a brand called "GSUMP", and there isn't one.

I just went down in the garage and pawed through about 20 spools and boxes of braided line (maybe half of what's in stock!). Some said "Dyneema" and some said "Spectra", while others didn't say either. Power Pro said "Spectra" on all the boxes. I have a spool of "Tuf-Line" and some spools of Stren braid that didn't say anything. A partial spool of (very old) Cabela's "Evolution" line said "100% Dyneema" on the spool. Braids stand up well to the test of time. Some say braids are easy to fray and break on sharp rocks...I guess we don't have sharp rocks around here.   H^^ Steve   

Gel-spun ultra high molecular weight polyethylene(GSUMP) is the chemical engineering name for how the product is made.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-molecular-weight_polyethylene#Fiber).  The process is very finicky, and Spectra(Honeywell patent) and Dyneema(DSM patent)hold most of the patents and have been producing since 1969.  The molecules are roughly 700,000 atoms long, up to 1cm long and are packed together in a near crystalline state like steel is.  The strength is comparable to high strength steel and 50-100% stronger than stainless steel and just as stiff.  The reason for the name brands is that in the past people have bought very cheap substitutes from China which were much weaker and much stretchier.  Many of them looked identical to trademarked products but were fake.

So the simplest way to ensure that you have suitable material is to take a foot long piece, fold the ends over a few inches and tie an overhand knot with the bight,  Pull test it.  It should pull test at least 50% of the rated strength for  the diameter with no apparent stretch.  That's the reason for specifying trademarked products.  It helps ensure that the lines will work.  If it does break too easily you have someone you can complain to.

Mike Londke's little video above shows very clearly how to tie a double loop knot.  I did hear that the AMA had a working group considering changing the rules and would recommend this knot because the double loop acts as a fail safe for wear, and makes the line stronger and more shock proof.  When a plane gets loose and hits the end of the lines having more material in the knot provides a cushion and helps prevent the line from cutting itself inside the knot.  You might want to get a small crochet hook to make it easier to tie.  They're only a buck or so.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 07:29:31 PM by phil c »
phil Cartier

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #116 on: September 19, 2018, 10:46:37 PM »
Gel-spun ultra high molecular weight polyethylene(GSUMP) is the chemical engineering name for how the product is made.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-molecular-weight_polyethylene#Fiber). 

   Phil - could you refer me to an engineering reference using the acronym GSUMP? I searched almost everywhere I and didn't see it, outside "enthusiast" sources. That acronym is not used on the Wikipedia page you reference, for instance.

      One of the problems I have with the failed proposal is that there seems to be very poor to nearly no information readily available on the engineering properties, outside people trying to sell it. I think it doesn't make a lot of sense to attempt to specify something for which there is no engineering standards - and it's probably unnecessary, too.
   
     Brett

Offline phil c

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #117 on: September 21, 2018, 07:32:19 PM »
   Phil - could you refer me to an engineering reference using the acronym GSUMP? I searched almost everywhere I and didn't see it, outside "enthusiast" sources. That acronym is not used on the Wikipedia page you reference, for instance.

      One of the problems I have with the failed proposal is that there seems to be very poor to nearly no information readily available on the engineering properties, outside people trying to sell it. I think it doesn't make a lot of sense to attempt to specify something for which there is no engineering standards - and it's probably unnecessary, too.
   
     Brett

The engineering term being used now is "UHMWPE fiber".  https://issuu.com/eurofibers/docs/name8f0d44 shows the kind of info available from manufacturers.
phil Cartier

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #118 on: September 26, 2018, 06:14:03 PM »
If anybody is interested in using the Decoy (brand) solid egg-shaped rings for each end of a pair of Spectra lines, I got a pack of each #3 & #4 rings from Tackle Warehouse today. The #3's package says "300 lb", and the #4's package says 400 lbs. So, either should be way more than strong enough! The #3's are TINY and the #4's are smaller than a glowplug gasket by a fair amount. I think they'd be the bee's knees. I believe it would be safer to fasten to these, rather than our normal eyelets, although those may also work just fine. Then add your normal clip of choice.  D>K Steve

https://www.tacklewarehouse.com/Decoy_GP_Ring_12pk/descpage-DGPR.html   
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #119 on: September 26, 2018, 09:52:31 PM »
Hello Steve are the Decoy Egg Rings #4 (100lb) suitable as connectors? I've been using slide connectors but know they are only rated to 49lb in large size.
https://www.tacklewarehouse.com/Decoy_Egg_Ring_12pk/descpage-DEGG.html
Thanks
Regards Gerald

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #120 on: September 27, 2018, 05:43:49 PM »
Hello Steve are the Decoy Egg Rings #4 (100lb) suitable as connectors? I've been using slide connectors but know they are only rated to 49lb in large size.
https://www.tacklewarehouse.com/Decoy_Egg_Ring_12pk/descpage-DEGG.html
Thanks
Regards Gerald


Gerald, I would say NO, partly because dealing with split rings is ALWAYS a PITA, but also because you'd need to rotate the ring through the line, without a doubt creating wear & tear right where you don't want it.


I know some guys who use this style of fishing snaps, but I won't use them for two reasons. Some are black finished but are actually brass, and I'd rather have plated steel or stainless steel. The ones in the link below are stainless, and I'd use them, except that this style is prone to doing a "twist & lock" number on the eyelets in leadouts and lines...that can cost you a propeller, airplane, or heart attack.

https://www.terminaltackleco.com/prod_detail_list/601

Of the other fishing clips I've looked at online recently, the P-Line brand looks more user friendly and safe. See the link below. I believe they would work fine. Take a look, check the pound test ratings, and decide for yourself. I expect you can find P-Line stuff in NZ tackle shops near saltwater. I have never seen these in person, and don't know how large they are:

https://www.tacklewarehouse.com/P-Line_Technical_Snap/descpage-TPBB.html

As for myself, I'll stick with the Sullivan paper-clip style, homemade from .055" stainless wire on my Jim Lee/Derek Moran clip bender. I just looked for a picture on both Brodak and Sullivan's websites, but I can't find them on Brodak's site using their search function, and no picture on the Sullivan site. I found a picture on the RSM Distribution site...they are called the "squeeze-type" and are on the "handles and lines" page, in 80# and 100# sizes, while Sullivan lists 40# and 80#. The same picture RSM has is also on the SIG website.  y1 Steve 

http://sullivanproducts.com/product/line-connectors-110-test-122/

https://www.rsmdistribution.com/



 
« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 02:35:09 PM by Steve Helmick »
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #121 on: September 28, 2018, 06:10:19 AM »
Thanks Steve for your detailed response. Looks like the RSM 'squeeze type' are the best option and they look like the old Pylon scissor type from the past.
Regards Gerald

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #122 on: September 28, 2018, 08:36:58 PM »
Those from Terminal tackle look like the ones I've used for years.   May try a 10 pack some time. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #123 on: September 28, 2018, 10:56:36 PM »


     Brett

p.s. And now that I am on a roll - everybody knows how everybody voted. After the screening vote, it would have been trivial to simply call, say, Paul Walker, and ask what the issue was, and how they should fix it/cross-propose it to make it acceptable. I have known Paul a *long time*, he is not in any way hesitant to tell you what he thinks if asked. That simple step could have resolved it a year ago or so, or gotten general agreement on why it couldn't work as written. I have no idea what really happened, but the notion that this CLACB is like selecting a pope, white smoke comes out the chimney, is just nonsense. The CLACB members are just other guys flying model airplanes just like anyone else - maybe they are better at it, or have been doing it longer, but it's not like they are some unapproachable God-like figures operating in a mysterious secret society. Just let them know what you think and how to proceed, they are generally quite happy to get any feedback at all.
[/quote]


Well, this is almost exactly what happened. I explained the issue to one of the originators, and thought they understood. A modified proposal was created, but did NOT solve the problem.

So without the problem being addressed, there was no choice but to vote no.

If the rule had passed, and I was a CD for a competition where synthetic lines showed up I would not allow their use as they could never prove that they complied with the rule. The CD has to err on the side of safety.

Like Brett, I suggested a "unified" rule using only a pull test verification, similar to FAI, but again, the originators were hung up on what they originally submitted. No "unified" rule this cycle. Maybe next cycle.


Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #124 on: September 29, 2018, 02:47:49 PM »
Those from Terminal tackle look like the ones I've used for years.   May try a 10 pack some time. D>K


Doc, since they don't have pictures on their website, and I know that you are familiar with their products, what sort of clips does MBS carry? And, what is your leadout binding system look like? I figure you'd use brass tubes instead of eyelets?  That reduces the "twist & jam" tendency tremendously.  H^^ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Spectra Connectors
« Reply #125 on: September 29, 2018, 07:14:02 PM »
If you look close this is how my line/lead out ends look like.   I got up on your first link and the picture shows the same clips as the one on the reel.  I just picked up some more from Melvin today at the combat meet. D>K 

     https://www.terminaltackleco.com/prod_detail_list/601


« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 07:43:54 PM by john e. holliday »
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.


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