Speaking of Handles...

[Bradley Walker]

This is my new Brodak Rock Crusher. 

The handle spline and slider arms are 1/8" heat treated 6061 aluminum and the handle sides are injected molded plastic.  The handle sides are also hollow to make the handle even lighter.  I have been flying the prototype versions this season and I think this is the best handle I have ever used (not to pat myself on the back) and is certainly the easiest to adjust.

As you can see the handle is a "hard point" type.  The arms can be reversed for even more handle spacing. 

Brodak will be releasing the 5.5" size version sometime before Spring.  There may be a release of the 6" and 4.75" someday depending on how these sell.

I will post pics of the prototypes when I get home.  My digital camera batteries died.

[Bill Little]

A Plastic "TEDDY" handle.  Should be much cheaper to mass produce!  I would really like to try one of those.  With mass production those should be able to come in under $20, a great alternative to the somewhat pricey jobs out there.

Great idea to combine an E-Z Just and the hard point connection style Ted developed.  Good job.

[Bradley Walker]

Great idea to combine an E-Z Just and the hard point connection style Ted developed.  Good job.

I hate to pick, but I am pretty sure Ted did not *invent* the hard point handle.  I am not sure of the origin, but I believe it was the China F2B Team.  I have seen old pictures of hard point handles similar to the Ted handle.

I do think Ted's handle was a really good design, the best in fact.  I especially liked the micro "ladder type" handle spacing adjustment.

I have several Ted handles, and because of Ted's handles, I dropped the cable handles completely and will never go back.  So, that being said, thanks Ted for your great handle design.  I hope you like the Rock Crusher, it was inspired by the Ted handle, for sure.  I like to think I took it to the next level.  That was the idea anyway.  There is zero finishing, it is light, it cannot rust, and it should last indefinitely.  Mine still looks like new and I have been flying it all season.  The plastic is just a little scratched from dragging it on the asphalt.

Truthfully, it is a CL handle...what hasn't been done???  I like to think the execution is the key.

[Bill Little]

Where ever the idea you used came from doesn't matter to me!

I like the look of it, and will check into them!

[De Hill]

The "Tatone" handle produced in the 1960's was the first adjustable handle in the "Ted" style that I have seen.

[Bradley Walker]

Great idea to combine an E-Z Just and the hard point connection style Ted developed. 

HE HE...

Rock Crusher, get it?

I could not bring myself to call it the Hot Rock Crusher...

[Bill Little]

HE HE...

Rock Crusher, get it?

I could not bring myself to call it the Hot Rock Crusher...

I refrained from "Hot Rock" and just used "E-Z"!

[Bradley Walker]

I refrained from "Hot Rock" and just used "E-Z"!

E-Z Crusher?

I like that too!!!

[Marvin Denny]

  Is the arms that protrude to the front 1/8th inch thick alum?  If so, how do you get the line clips through them?  Or are special clips available?  I will probably order a couple.

  Bigiron

[Bill Little]

E-Z Crusher?

I like that too!!!

Well, then just send me a sample (Priority Mail) and I will release any rights to the name! HAHAHAHAHAHHA............... (no seriously! )

[catdaddy]

I want one...two...what the heck I want three of them
Great job Brad
From what I've been told Ted's handle which is now sold by Carl Shoup (sp) was a close copy of Kaz Minto's handle. Can anyone else here confirm that so I can tell people I use a Kaz handle instead of a Ted handle 

[Bradley Walker]

I want one...two...what the heck I want three of them
Great job Brad
From what I've been told Ted's handle which is now sold by Carl Shoup (sp) was a close copy of Kaz Minto's handle. Can anyone else here confirm that so I can tell people I use a Kaz handle instead of a Ted handle 

Randy said mine looks more like Kaz handle, yet I have never seen a Kaz handle.

Why can't you say you use a Rock Crusher?

[Ted Fancher]

I want one...two...what the heck I want three of them
Great job Brad
From what I've been told Ted's handle which is now sold by Carl Shoup (sp) was a close copy of Kaz Minto's handle. Can anyone else here confirm that so I can tell people I use a Kaz handle instead of a Ted handle 

No, actually it was an adjustable version of a handle I copied from Paul Walker after caddying for him in Shanghai in 1994. The hard point concept coupled to a properly shaped (symetrical up and down) grip seemed immediately better than the then ubiquitoes Baron style sliding cable type I had used for years.  My original "adjustable" prototype was built within a week after returning from China and has never been retired for "serious" stunt work since.

When I sold them their origin was clearly spelled out in the instruction sheet that accompanied each handle kit.  Paul, by the way, appeared to have patterned his handle (non adjustable for overhang) from the Hot Rock.  I quite frankly "designed" the shape of mine by drawing around my last Hot Rock with a pencil.  It was my opinion that the shape of the Hot Rock was pretty much beyond improvement ... still feel that way.  Other than the materials for the grip, Brad's handle is functionally identical to the one that Carl now sells, including multiple sizes.

So, I pretty much copied the whole thing and never pretended I didn't.  It's amazing how much can be accomplished if you don't care who gets the credit for the end product.  This is particularly valuable if the end product is a step ahead of the products from which it was developed. 


Although I'm aware Kaz markets a handle I've never examined one.  Given his skills and knowledge of the event I've no doubt it is an excellent product.  Bottom line, if you want to call your handle a Kaz handle, go for it.
Knowing Kaz, I doubt he'll object even if the two are substantially different in design.

I stopped selling my handle because I got tired of continually receiving complaints from another producer of handles who appeared to feel I shouldn't be selling them; or if I was going to sell them that I shouldn't  suggest there was an advantage to the configuration that made them more or less unique at the time.

That's also the reason I didn't produce a second version almost identical to Brad's new one he's marketing through Brodak.  The guy that did my laser cutting of the steel was prodding me to produce exactly the same sort of steel/plastic combo that Brad ended up with.  A much better consumer product when produced in this way but the constant complaints from the other producer just took the fun out of doing it any more. 

When Carl took over the handle commercially he gave me a half dozen kits as a thank you.  They'll last me for whatever career I have left.

Ted

[Clint Ormosen]

Pretty nice handles. I'll buy a couple if they become available.

[Geoff Goodworth]

Hi guys

Is the Hot Rock as soft in the main cable as those with with the adjustment at the front?

I can see a clear benefit in the hard point attachment but with it's adjustment at the back and fewer bends, I wonder just how soft the feel is on the Hot Rock.

Cheers, Geoff

[Dick Byron]

Thanks Dee,
              You got it right.

[Eric Viglione]

Brad - That SO ROCKS! And I think it should be dubbed for the MUNCIE ROCK CRUSHER! or MRC Handle!   
Hey, the Cuda even came with a pistol grip on it's M22. Cool Daddy'O!

EricV

[Steve Helmick]

Kaz's "MNT" handles are shown below. Howard uses one. They're aluminum and balsa, and all appear to have cables, so they're not for me.  The reason there are photos of multiple handles, is because they are available in various sizes, to fit hands from small to large. Something like 5mm increments? As near as I can figure, Kaz has a single jpeg made up from multiple pictures for his home page, so you'll have to find the handles down a few rows and to the right. <sigh>
   

About Brad's handle. "Heat treated 6061 aluminum" doesn't impress me. I've never seen any 6061 that wasn't heat treated to T6 condition, and that's just the way it is. I machine the stuff almost every day. It's soft and gummy and not nice to machine. But it is probably the least expensive aluminum you can get, the normal commercial grade stuff that lots of stuff is made from, and reasonably corrosion resistant. I'm not saying it's a bad choice of material. But to point out that it's heat treated makes it sound special, and it's definitely not anything special.  In fact, it looks like a useful piece, since it doesn't have cables! How could we modify these to actually fit us? 

I yam (sic) pretty happy to make the Tom Morris and Ted handles fit my hand, tho. Kits (or tailor made) are the way to go, IMO. I used Mike Haverly's "Ted" handle a few weeks ago, and it was about 1/4" too narrow for my paw. I didn't like that feature, but it's a nice handle.  Steve

[Ted Fancher]

The "Tatone" handle produced in the 1960's was the first adjustable handle in the "Ted" style that I have seen.

De,

Is that the one with the sort of reddish, rust colored grip?

Ted

[Roger Vizioli]

De,

Is that the one with the sort of reddish, rust colored grip?

Ted

Ted,
I'm not De, but is this the one you are thinking of?
Lower arm pulled out to show adjustment range vs. upper.
Regards,
Roger V.

[De Hill]

De,

Is that the one with the sort of reddish, rust colored grip?

Ted

Ted,

They came in two colors; Yellow, and a Reddish Rusty Brown.

De

[Bill Little]

I used Mike Haverly's "Ted" handle a few weeks ago, and it was about 1/4" too narrow for my paw. I didn't like that feature, but it's a nice handle.  Steve

Steve, Did you use the small or large size?  I use the large one and fly in my fingers.  Fits pretty good that way.  A "Hot Rock" (same as the small Ted handle) is way too small for me to use unless I let my pinkie hang out the bottom.

[Steve Hand]

Ted,

Your adept use of the English language in #12 is appreciated. Thanks

[Bill Little]

Brad - That SO ROCKS! And I think it should be dubbed for the MUNCIE ROCK CRUSHER! or MRC Handle!   
Hey, the Cuda even came with a pistol grip on it's M22. Cool Daddy'O!

EricV

Hi Eric,  Glad yo got home safe and sound.  Enjoyed the *short* time we had to get together at huntersville, but happy to see you again! 

BTW:  I wasn't a Mopar fan (I do remember the pistol grip tall shifters!) so I didn't realize they used Muncie trannys.... !  I had a rock crusher in a Chebbie for a while, though.

[Steve Helmick]

Steve, Did you use the small or large size?  I use the large one and fly in my fingers.  Fits pretty good that way.  A "Hot Rock" (same as the small Ted handle) is way too small for me to use unless I let my pinkie hang out the bottom.

Small, I'm sure. I have some of Carl's "Ted Handle" kits, but haven't worked on one yet. I seem to recall being "fitted" by Ted hisself, at the NW CL Regionals. Don't remember the exact process. Maybe a handshake! The whole idea behind the kit approach is that you can make it fit your hand. Everybody is different, and likes to hold the handle in various ways, so it just makes sense to me. I usta use the Hot Rock with no complaints, but my hands weren't so "muscular" in those days. I sure do like the adjustability of the new handles, and don't like cables. Mike's Ted handle just pinched a little, and I didn't like it doing that. I still have it, but won't modify it for him! I'll give the handle and lines back, when I can get lines made up and a handle worked out for this model. 

I've done a bunch of the Tom handles, and have more kits for them. I'm interested in trying the non-biased hard point version that CLC shows on their website. I need to order some lines or something, anyway.     Steve

[Bradley Walker]

He he, look at that...

Like I said, it is a CL handle.  It has all been done.

[Bradley Walker]

. I'm not saying it's a bad choice of material. But to point out that it's heat treated makes it sound special, and it's definitely not anything special.  In fact, it looks like a useful piece, since it doesn't have cables! How could we modify these to actually fit us? 

I never said it was special.

[Bradley Walker]

I stopped selling my handle because I got tired of continually receiving complaints from another producer of handles who appeared to feel I shouldn't be selling them; or if I was going to sell them that I shouldn't  suggest there was an advantage to the configuration that made them more or less unique at the time.

That's also the reason I didn't produce a second version almost identical to Brad's new one he's marketing through Brodak.  The guy that did my laser cutting of the steel was prodding me to produce exactly the same sort of steel/plastic combo that Brad ended up with.  A much better consumer

Ted,

That sucks.  I remember that.  I thought you stopped due to liability concerns.  Now "that guy" has stopped making the handles completely. 

Man that sucks!!!

Anyway, I hope you like the handle.  Consider it the next generation of what you were doing.

If it makes you feel any better, I fly with the guy who makes the "other guy's" handles now.  He likes my handle.

[Bob Reeves]

I like it and will be buying a bunch.. This handle and Lee's Maching Shop clip bending jig would make a good pair.

If you want to customize it just make wood replacements for the plastic grips and knock yourself out...

[proparc]

"Steve Helmick"
About Brad's handle. "Heat treated 6061 aluminum" doesn't impress me. I've never seen any 6061 that wasn't heat treated to T6 condition, and that's just the way it is. I machine the stuff almost every day. It's soft and gummy and not nice to machine. But it is probably the least expensive aluminum you can get, the normal commercial grade stuff that lots of stuff is made from, and reasonably corrosion resistant. I'm not saying it's a bad choice of material. But to point out that it's heat treated makes it sound special, and it's definitely not anything special. 
[/quote]

I very strongly agree.  6061 in the T6 condition seems to be a "knee jerk" call out for aluminum simply because a lot times people don't know better.  It is not the metal I would use in this instance by a long shot. Granted this is Brad's handle and he rolls as he sees fit. But, if it was my handle, 6061 definitely would not be specified in any way shape or form.  First call for me would be one of the "martensitic" stainless steels and then go from there.

[Bob Reeves]

This is almost like discussing global warming. What's wrong with aluminum whatever type.. It will outlast the life of the handle, keep the price reasonable is light and will never rust. I don't see a problem...

[Clancy Arnold]

Thought you all might like to see the insides of the handle.  Especially the way it adjusts.

Clancy

[Marvin Denny]

"Steve Helmick"
About Brad's handle. "Heat treated 6061 aluminum" doesn't impress me. I've never seen any 6061 that wasn't heat treated to T6 condition, and that's just the way it is. I machine the stuff almost every day. It's soft and gummy and not nice to machine. But it is probably the least expensive aluminum you can get, the normal commercial grade stuff that lots of stuff is made from, and reasonably corrosion resistant. I'm not saying it's a bad choice of material. But to point out that it's heat treated makes it sound special, and it's definitely not anything special. 


I very strongly agree.  6061 in the T6 condition seems to be a "knee jerk" call out for aluminum simply because a lot times people don't know better.  It is not the metal I would use in this instance by a long shot. Granted this is Brad's handle and he rolls as he sees fit. But, if it was my handle, 6061 definitely would not be specified in any way shape or form.  First call for me would be one of the "martensitic" stainless steels and then go from there.

  6061 Aluminum alloy  natural ages to T-4 condition without any furnace aging.  It can be heat treated (artificial aging) to T-3 , T-3XXX, T-6, and T-6XXX conditions by further furnace aging and work hardening/stress releiving.
  It is one of the easiest to machine alum alloys

  Bigiron

[john e. holliday]

I have and use one of Ted's handles I got from Carl.  My favorite handle is the one I got from Bigiron.  In fact I have three of them.  Have fun,  DOC Holliday

[Mark Scarborough]

I really think that the point being missed is that the choice of material needs to meet the reaquirements of the project at hand. Idont see that 6061 in whatever temper is going to be a problem inthis application. It has more than enough strength to do the job and Steve I know you are a machinist , I respect your knowledge with regards to that, and you are right it is kind of "gummmy" with respects to other alloys I have worked with 6061 and 2024 quite a bit so have some limited knowledge. 6061 is a very easy to work alloy in non skilled hands and more importantly, its strong enough, and very obtainable at a very good price. Hence for me, heck it makes sense. Yeah with Stainless you could go probably to something  that was .040 and be strong enough but THAT would be more expensive IMHO to machine and manufacture. Sutiability and function, meet the price point, that is the key to success in busness ventures. I am sure there is a market for a really trick machined super whidget handle, but there might only be 10 a year sold, whereas  a good simple durable handel, well look at what a Hot Rock brings on ebay. Nuff said

[Garf]

I spent 28 years working aluminum. In aviation, 6061T6 was used to make garbage cans and hydraulic tanks because it is weldable. It is considered non structural strength for aircraft. The minimum for structure is 2024T3. When something needs maximum strength, we used 7075T6. In some cases, stainless or titanium is used. My choice for this would be 2024T3.

[Bradley Walker]

My choice for this would be 2024T3.

I will see if this is possible.  I am not sure if the arms have been made yet.

[Steve Helmick]

I have seen  6061T6 called "Aircraft Aluminum", and just giggled about it. We did make some door knobs and escutcheon plates (for cockpit security upgrades after 9-11-2001), galley trim, filler blocks, etc., from it. I'm very glad Brad didn't call it "Aircraft Aluminum", because it really isn't.

I'm not saying that there's a single thing wrong with using it for this handle, tho we don't know how thick it is, or if it's going to be anodized or not, both of which would make a difference. The point I was trying to make was that if you call and just order "aluminum", it's probably going to be 6061T6, almost automatically.  I would have just said it was 6061T6. It is lighter than 2024, 7050 or 7075, a good thing. I'm sure a batch of the handles will be run through a battery of pull tests and they'll be just fine, or they will be beefed up until they are.   

FWIW, we do make a lot of UAV or RPV parts, and most are 6061T6. Some are 303 or 304 CRES. All non-structural, because most of that is composite.  It's not my favorite aluminum to machine, that's for certain, but I'm always happy if it's not CRES, CRS, HRS,  4340, UHMW or Phenolic.    Steve

[RandySmith]

I had three of Kaz's handles, and the one's I purchased from Ted, and later Carl, are nothing like Kazs. His, Kaz's, use cables. 

Hi Ty

Not all of the  MNT handles  have  cables, I sell all of them and have been using a  hard point MNT  handle  for going on 2 years now.

Regards
Randy

[Iskandar Taib]

Excellent handle for Stunt, but don't ever use them in Combat!   

[Bradley Walker]

Excellent handle for Stunt, but don't ever use them in Combat!   

Why not?

[RandySmith]

Hi Brad

The only problem I see with it is it has  finger grips made into it, Many people do not like finger grips, and  most evryones fingers are  differant if you do use the  finger grips made into it.

Regards
Randy

[Iskandar Taib]

Why not?

Those L-shaped things. They're the PERFECT tool for snagging your opponent's down line at just the right moment... 

For use in Combat, I'd replace the two Ls with a crossbar. There's still the clips to worry about, but you can slide some tubing over them. Still, it looks pretty big compared to Combat handles.. the one people used to like a lot for Fast was the old Aldrich Magnum handle. The F2D ones are light and tiny - maybe a 4" spacing, barely fits over your hand.

[De Hill]

Hi Brad

The only problem I see with it is it has  finger grips made into it, Many people do not like finger grips, and  most evryones fingers are  differant if you do use the  finger grips made into it.

Regards
Randy
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with Randy. If you sell this handle with finger grips, it will hurt the sales badly. Sell it without fingergrips. If people want them, they will sand them in the handle to fit their hand.

[Ron King]

I agree with Randy. If you sell this handle with finger grips, it will hurt the sales badly. Sell it without fingergrips. If people want them, they will sand them in the handle to fit their hand.

From Brad's original specs, this handle will come with molded plastic covers over the metal core. I'm not sure how much sanding you can do.

Ron

[Bradley Walker]

The design of the handle is complete.  There will be no design changes.  It will be released just the way you see it.

I guess you could file on the handle, but I do not think you will improve it much...  just my opinion.  It was never intended to be a handle "kit".  It is more of a handle "RTF".

For customizing I recommend getting yourself some tennis racket padded tape and wrap the handle.  Again, I do not think this is necessary.

[Randy Powell]

I've never used Ted's design because I didn't like the pivot for the line moving in and out. It effectively changes the handle pivot angle. Probably nothing to worry about, but it bugged me. It seemed to be introducting another unneeded factor in trimming. So I went with the Dirty Dan design that keeps the pivots and overhang the same but adjust for line length differences by using different lengths of line clips. That way the pivot stays the same. I like consistency.

Hey, what can I say. We all have preferences.

[Bradley Walker]

I've never used Ted's design because I didn't like the pivot for the line moving in and out. It effectively changes the handle pivot angle. Probably nothing to worry about, but it bugged me. It seemed to be introducting another unneeded factor in trimming. So I went with the Dirty Dan design that keeps the pivots and overhang the same but adjust for line length differences by using different lengths of line clips. That way the pivot stays the same. I like consistency.

Hey, what can I say. We all have preferences.

I do that too.

I use different clips to keep the overhang where I like it, I have a large selection.  It is good to have the bars move, however, as you can change the overhang, even if you keep them even to each other.

[Iskandar Taib]

I've never used Ted's design because I didn't like the pivot for the line moving in and out. It effectively changes the handle pivot angle. Probably nothing to worry about, but it bugged me. It seemed to be introducting another unneeded factor in trimming. So I went with the Dirty Dan design that keeps the pivots and overhang the same but adjust for line length differences by using different lengths of line clips. That way the pivot stays the same. I like consistency.

Hey, what can I say. We all have preferences.

From what I've read elsewhere, you never were supposed to adjust neutral by sliding the pieces in and out, anyway. The idea was you could adjust overhang.

I always cut my lines perfectly equal in length... and adjust the airplane so that the controls are neutral when I hold the leadout tips together, so I've never needed any steenking adjustment, anyhow... but for the Ted handle, you were supposed to use the Dirty Trick with the line clips.

[Bradley Walker]

but for the Ted handle, you were supposed to use the Dirty Trick with the line clips.

I had no idea that Dan *invented* the "trick".  I just thought it was common sense.  I do not think the overhang distance is ultra critical, but I do not like to see one way out and one way in.  I actually change the clips at the airplane end.  I was doing this before even flying the Ted handle.  I have clips of every manufacture and type.