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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Bradley Walker on October 26, 2007, 10:11:55 AM
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This is my new Brodak Rock Crusher.
The handle spline and slider arms are 1/8" heat treated 6061 aluminum and the handle sides are injected molded plastic. The handle sides are also hollow to make the handle even lighter. I have been flying the prototype versions this season and I think this is the best handle I have ever used (not to pat myself on the back) and is certainly the easiest to adjust.
As you can see the handle is a "hard point" type. The arms can be reversed for even more handle spacing.
Brodak will be releasing the 5.5" size version sometime before Spring. There may be a release of the 6" and 4.75" someday depending on how these sell.
I will post pics of the prototypes when I get home. My digital camera batteries died.
(http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7109.0;attach=20857;image)
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A Plastic "TEDDY" handle. Should be much cheaper to mass produce! I would really like to try one of those. With mass production those should be able to come in under $20, a great alternative to the somewhat pricey jobs out there.
Great idea to combine an E-Z Just and the hard point connection style Ted developed. Good job. y1
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Great idea to combine an E-Z Just and the hard point connection style Ted developed. Good job. y1
I hate to pick, but I am pretty sure Ted did not *invent* the hard point handle. I am not sure of the origin, but I believe it was the China F2B Team. I have seen old pictures of hard point handles similar to the Ted handle.
I do think Ted's handle was a really good design, the best in fact. I especially liked the micro "ladder type" handle spacing adjustment.
I have several Ted handles, and because of Ted's handles, I dropped the cable handles completely and will never go back. So, that being said, thanks Ted for your great handle design. I hope you like the Rock Crusher, it was inspired by the Ted handle, for sure. I like to think I took it to the next level. That was the idea anyway. There is zero finishing, it is light, it cannot rust, and it should last indefinitely. Mine still looks like new and I have been flying it all season. The plastic is just a little scratched from dragging it on the asphalt.
Truthfully, it is a CL handle...what hasn't been done??? I like to think the execution is the key.
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Where ever the idea you used came from doesn't matter to me! ;D
I like the look of it, and will check into them!
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The "Tatone" handle produced in the 1960's was the first adjustable handle in the "Ted" style that I have seen.
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Great idea to combine an E-Z Just and the hard point connection style Ted developed.
HE HE...
Rock Crusher, get it?
I could not bring myself to call it the Hot Rock Crusher...
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HE HE...
Rock Crusher, get it?
I could not bring myself to call it the Hot Rock Crusher...
I refrained from "Hot Rock" and just used "E-Z"! LL~ LL~
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I refrained from "Hot Rock" and just used "E-Z"! LL~ LL~
E-Z Crusher?
I like that too!!!
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Is the arms that protrude to the front 1/8th inch thick alum? If so, how do you get the line clips through them? Or are special clips available? I will probably order a couple.
Bigiron
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E-Z Crusher?
I like that too!!!
Well, then just send me a sample (Priority Mail) and I will release any rights to the name! HAHAHAHAHAHHA............... (no seriously! ;D )
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I want one...two...what the heck I want three of them
Great job Brad
From what I've been told Ted's handle which is now sold by Carl Shoup (sp) was a close copy of Kaz Minto's handle. Can anyone else here confirm that so I can tell people I use a Kaz handle instead of a Ted handle :##
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I want one...two...what the heck I want three of them
Great job Brad
From what I've been told Ted's handle which is now sold by Carl Shoup (sp) was a close copy of Kaz Minto's handle. Can anyone else here confirm that so I can tell people I use a Kaz handle instead of a Ted handle :##
Randy said mine looks more like Kaz handle, yet I have never seen a Kaz handle.
Why can't you say you use a Rock Crusher?
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I want one...two...what the heck I want three of them
Great job Brad
From what I've been told Ted's handle which is now sold by Carl Shoup (sp) was a close copy of Kaz Minto's handle. Can anyone else here confirm that so I can tell people I use a Kaz handle instead of a Ted handle :##
No, actually it was an adjustable version of a handle I copied from Paul Walker after caddying for him in Shanghai in 1994. The hard point concept coupled to a properly shaped (symetrical up and down) grip seemed immediately better than the then ubiquitoes Baron style sliding cable type I had used for years. My original "adjustable" prototype was built within a week after returning from China and has never been retired for "serious" stunt work since.
When I sold them their origin was clearly spelled out in the instruction sheet that accompanied each handle kit. Paul, by the way, appeared to have patterned his handle (non adjustable for overhang) from the Hot Rock. I quite frankly "designed" the shape of mine by drawing around my last Hot Rock with a pencil. It was my opinion that the shape of the Hot Rock was pretty much beyond improvement ... still feel that way. Other than the materials for the grip, Brad's handle is functionally identical to the one that Carl now sells, including multiple sizes.
So, I pretty much copied the whole thing and never pretended I didn't. It's amazing how much can be accomplished if you don't care who gets the credit for the end product. This is particularly valuable if the end product is a step ahead of the products from which it was developed.
Although I'm aware Kaz markets a handle I've never examined one. Given his skills and knowledge of the event I've no doubt it is an excellent product. Bottom line, if you want to call your handle a Kaz handle, go for it.
Knowing Kaz, I doubt he'll object even if the two are substantially different in design.
I stopped selling my handle because I got tired of continually receiving complaints from another producer of handles who appeared to feel I shouldn't be selling them; or if I was going to sell them that I shouldn't suggest there was an advantage to the configuration that made them more or less unique at the time.
That's also the reason I didn't produce a second version almost identical to Brad's new one he's marketing through Brodak. The guy that did my laser cutting of the steel was prodding me to produce exactly the same sort of steel/plastic combo that Brad ended up with. A much better consumer product when produced in this way but the constant complaints from the other producer just took the fun out of doing it any more.
When Carl took over the handle commercially he gave me a half dozen kits as a thank you. They'll last me for whatever career I have left.
Ted
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Pretty nice handles. I'll buy a couple if they become available.
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Hi guys
Is the Hot Rock as soft in the main cable as those with with the adjustment at the front?
I can see a clear benefit in the hard point attachment but with it's adjustment at the back and fewer bends, I wonder just how soft the feel is on the Hot Rock.
Cheers, Geoff
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Thanks Dee,
You got it right.
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Brad - That SO ROCKS! And I think it should be dubbed for the MUNCIE ROCK CRUSHER! or MRC Handle! VD~ y1
Hey, the Cuda even came with a pistol grip on it's M22. Cool Daddy'O!
EricV
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Kaz's "MNT" handles are shown below. Howard uses one. They're aluminum and balsa, and all appear to have cables, so they're not for me. The reason there are photos of multiple handles, is because they are available in various sizes, to fit hands from small to large. Something like 5mm increments? As near as I can figure, Kaz has a single jpeg made up from multiple pictures for his home page, so you'll have to find the handles down a few rows and to the right. <sigh>
(http://homepage3.nifty.com/bluemax/mnt001mail_to_me.jpg)
About Brad's handle. "Heat treated 6061 aluminum" doesn't impress me. I've never seen any 6061 that wasn't heat treated to T6 condition, and that's just the way it is. I machine the stuff almost every day. It's soft and gummy and not nice to machine. But it is probably the least expensive aluminum you can get, the normal commercial grade stuff that lots of stuff is made from, and reasonably corrosion resistant. I'm not saying it's a bad choice of material. But to point out that it's heat treated makes it sound special, and it's definitely not anything special. In fact, it looks like a useful piece, since it doesn't have cables! How could we modify these to actually fit us?
I yam (sic) pretty happy to make the Tom Morris and Ted handles fit my hand, tho. Kits (or tailor made) are the way to go, IMO. I used Mike Haverly's "Ted" handle a few weeks ago, and it was about 1/4" too narrow for my paw. I didn't like that feature, but it's a nice handle. y1 Steve
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The "Tatone" handle produced in the 1960's was the first adjustable handle in the "Ted" style that I have seen.
De,
Is that the one with the sort of reddish, rust colored grip?
Ted
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De,
Is that the one with the sort of reddish, rust colored grip?
Ted
Ted,
I'm not De, but is this the one you are thinking of?
Lower arm pulled out to show adjustment range vs. upper.
Regards,
Roger V.
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De,
Is that the one with the sort of reddish, rust colored grip?
Ted
Ted,
They came in two colors; Yellow, and a Reddish Rusty Brown.
De
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I used Mike Haverly's "Ted" handle a few weeks ago, and it was about 1/4" too narrow for my paw. I didn't like that feature, but it's a nice handle. y1 Steve
Steve, Did you use the small or large size? I use the large one and fly in my fingers. Fits pretty good that way. A "Hot Rock" (same as the small Ted handle) is way too small for me to use unless I let my pinkie hang out the bottom. LL~
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Ted,
Your adept use of the English language in #12 is appreciated. Thanks
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Brad - That SO ROCKS! And I think it should be dubbed for the MUNCIE ROCK CRUSHER! or MRC Handle! VD~ y1
Hey, the Cuda even came with a pistol grip on it's M22. Cool Daddy'O!
EricV
Hi Eric, Glad yo got home safe and sound. Enjoyed the *short* time we had to get together at huntersville, but happy to see you again!
BTW: I wasn't a Mopar fan (I do remember the pistol grip tall shifters!) so I didn't realize they used Muncie trannys.... ! I had a rock crusher in a Chebbie for a while, though. ;D
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Steve, Did you use the small or large size? I use the large one and fly in my fingers. Fits pretty good that way. A "Hot Rock" (same as the small Ted handle) is way too small for me to use unless I let my pinkie hang out the bottom. LL~
Small, I'm sure. I have some of Carl's "Ted Handle" kits, but haven't worked on one yet. I seem to recall being "fitted" by Ted hisself, at the NW CL Regionals. Don't remember the exact process. Maybe a handshake! The whole idea behind the kit approach is that you can make it fit your hand. Everybody is different, and likes to hold the handle in various ways, so it just makes sense to me. I usta use the Hot Rock with no complaints, but my hands weren't so "muscular" in those days. I sure do like the adjustability of the new handles, and don't like cables. Mike's Ted handle just pinched a little, and I didn't like it doing that. I still have it, but won't modify it for him! mw~ I'll give the handle and lines back, when I can get lines made up and a handle worked out for this model.
I've done a bunch of the Tom handles, and have more kits for them. I'm interested in trying the non-biased hard point version that CLC shows on their website. I need to order some lines or something, anyway. LL~ y1 Steve
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(http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7109.0;attach=20811;image)
He he, look at that...
Like I said, it is a CL handle. It has all been done.
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. I'm not saying it's a bad choice of material. But to point out that it's heat treated makes it sound special, and it's definitely not anything special. In fact, it looks like a useful piece, since it doesn't have cables! How could we modify these to actually fit us?
I never said it was special.
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I stopped selling my handle because I got tired of continually receiving complaints from another producer of handles who appeared to feel I shouldn't be selling them; or if I was going to sell them that I shouldn't suggest there was an advantage to the configuration that made them more or less unique at the time.
That's also the reason I didn't produce a second version almost identical to Brad's new one he's marketing through Brodak. The guy that did my laser cutting of the steel was prodding me to produce exactly the same sort of steel/plastic combo that Brad ended up with. A much better consumer
Ted,
That sucks. I remember that. I thought you stopped due to liability concerns. Now "that guy" has stopped making the handles completely.
Man that sucks!!!
Anyway, I hope you like the handle. Consider it the next generation of what you were doing.
If it makes you feel any better, I fly with the guy who makes the "other guy's" handles now. He likes my handle.
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I like it and will be buying a bunch.. This handle and Lee's Maching Shop clip bending jig would make a good pair.
If you want to customize it just make wood replacements for the plastic grips and knock yourself out...
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"Steve Helmick"
About Brad's handle. "Heat treated 6061 aluminum" doesn't impress me. I've never seen any 6061 that wasn't heat treated to T6 condition, and that's just the way it is. I machine the stuff almost every day. It's soft and gummy and not nice to machine. But it is probably the least expensive aluminum you can get, the normal commercial grade stuff that lots of stuff is made from, and reasonably corrosion resistant. I'm not saying it's a bad choice of material. But to point out that it's heat treated makes it sound special, and it's definitely not anything special.
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I very strongly agree. 6061 in the T6 condition seems to be a "knee jerk" call out for aluminum simply because a lot times people don't know better. It is not the metal I would use in this instance by a long shot. Granted this is Brad's handle and he rolls as he sees fit. But, if it was my handle, 6061 definitely would not be specified in any way shape or form. First call for me would be one of the "martensitic" stainless steels and then go from there.
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This is almost like discussing global warming. What's wrong with aluminum whatever type.. It will outlast the life of the handle, keep the price reasonable is light and will never rust. I don't see a problem...
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Thought you all might like to see the insides of the handle. Especially the way it adjusts.
Clancy
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"Steve Helmick"
About Brad's handle. "Heat treated 6061 aluminum" doesn't impress me. I've never seen any 6061 that wasn't heat treated to T6 condition, and that's just the way it is. I machine the stuff almost every day. It's soft and gummy and not nice to machine. But it is probably the least expensive aluminum you can get, the normal commercial grade stuff that lots of stuff is made from, and reasonably corrosion resistant. I'm not saying it's a bad choice of material. But to point out that it's heat treated makes it sound special, and it's definitely not anything special.
I very strongly agree. 6061 in the T6 condition seems to be a "knee jerk" call out for aluminum simply because a lot times people don't know better. It is not the metal I would use in this instance by a long shot. Granted this is Brad's handle and he rolls as he sees fit. But, if it was my handle, 6061 definitely would not be specified in any way shape or form. First call for me would be one of the "martensitic" stainless steels and then go from there.
6061 Aluminum alloy natural ages to T-4 condition without any furnace aging. It can be heat treated (artificial aging) to T-3 , T-3XXX, T-6, and T-6XXX conditions by further furnace aging and work hardening/stress releiving.
It is one of the easiest to machine alum alloys
Bigiron
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I have and use one of Ted's handles I got from Carl. My favorite handle is the one I got from Bigiron. In fact I have three of them. Have fun, DOC Holliday
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I really think that the point being missed is that the choice of material needs to meet the reaquirements of the project at hand. Idont see that 6061 in whatever temper is going to be a problem inthis application. It has more than enough strength to do the job and Steve I know you are a machinist , I respect your knowledge with regards to that, and you are right it is kind of "gummmy" with respects to other alloys I have worked with 6061 and 2024 quite a bit so have some limited knowledge. 6061 is a very easy to work alloy in non skilled hands and more importantly, its strong enough, and very obtainable at a very good price. Hence for me, heck it makes sense. Yeah with Stainless you could go probably to something that was .040 and be strong enough but THAT would be more expensive IMHO to machine and manufacture. Sutiability and function, meet the price point, that is the key to success in busness ventures. I am sure there is a market for a really trick machined super whidget handle, but there might only be 10 a year sold, whereas a good simple durable handel, well look at what a Hot Rock brings on ebay. Nuff said
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I spent 28 years working aluminum. In aviation, 6061T6 was used to make garbage cans and hydraulic tanks because it is weldable. It is considered non structural strength for aircraft. The minimum for structure is 2024T3. When something needs maximum strength, we used 7075T6. In some cases, stainless or titanium is used. My choice for this would be 2024T3.
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My choice for this would be 2024T3.
I will see if this is possible. I am not sure if the arms have been made yet.
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I have seen 6061T6 called "Aircraft Aluminum", and just giggled about it. We did make some door knobs and escutcheon plates (for cockpit security upgrades after 9-11-2001), galley trim, filler blocks, etc., from it. I'm very glad Brad didn't call it "Aircraft Aluminum", because it really isn't.
I'm not saying that there's a single thing wrong with using it for this handle, tho we don't know how thick it is, or if it's going to be anodized or not, both of which would make a difference. The point I was trying to make was that if you call and just order "aluminum", it's probably going to be 6061T6, almost automatically. I would have just said it was 6061T6. It is lighter than 2024, 7050 or 7075, a good thing. I'm sure a batch of the handles will be run through a battery of pull tests and they'll be just fine, or they will be beefed up until they are.
FWIW, we do make a lot of UAV or RPV parts, and most are 6061T6. Some are 303 or 304 CRES. All non-structural, because most of that is composite. It's not my favorite aluminum to machine, that's for certain, but I'm always happy if it's not CRES, CRS, HRS, 4340, UHMW or Phenolic. HB~> Steve
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I had three of Kaz's handles, and the one's I purchased from Ted, and later Carl, are nothing like Kazs. His, Kaz's, use cables. H^^
Hi Ty
Not all of the MNT handles have cables, I sell all of them and have been using a hard point MNT handle for going on 2 years now.
Regards
Randy
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(http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7109.0;attach=20857;image)
Excellent handle for Stunt, but don't ever use them in Combat! #^
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Excellent handle for Stunt, but don't ever use them in Combat! #^
Why not?
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Hi Brad
The only problem I see with it is it has finger grips made into it, Many people do not like finger grips, and most evryones fingers are differant if you do use the finger grips made into it.
Regards
Randy
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Why not?
Those L-shaped things. They're the PERFECT tool for snagging your opponent's down line at just the right moment... LL~
For use in Combat, I'd replace the two Ls with a crossbar. There's still the clips to worry about, but you can slide some tubing over them. Still, it looks pretty big compared to Combat handles.. the one people used to like a lot for Fast was the old Aldrich Magnum handle. The F2D ones are light and tiny - maybe a 4" spacing, barely fits over your hand.
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Hi Brad
The only problem I see with it is it has finger grips made into it, Many people do not like finger grips, and most evryones fingers are differant if you do use the finger grips made into it.
Regards
Randy
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I agree with Randy. If you sell this handle with finger grips, it will hurt the sales badly. Sell it without fingergrips. If people want them, they will sand them in the handle to fit their hand.
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I agree with Randy. If you sell this handle with finger grips, it will hurt the sales badly. Sell it without fingergrips. If people want them, they will sand them in the handle to fit their hand.
From Brad's original specs, this handle will come with molded plastic covers over the metal core. I'm not sure how much sanding you can do.
Ron
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The design of the handle is complete. There will be no design changes. It will be released just the way you see it.
I guess you could file on the handle, but I do not think you will improve it much... just my opinion. It was never intended to be a handle "kit". It is more of a handle "RTF".
For customizing I recommend getting yourself some tennis racket padded tape and wrap the handle. Again, I do not think this is necessary.
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I've never used Ted's design because I didn't like the pivot for the line moving in and out. It effectively changes the handle pivot angle. Probably nothing to worry about, but it bugged me. It seemed to be introducting another unneeded factor in trimming. So I went with the Dirty Dan design that keeps the pivots and overhang the same but adjust for line length differences by using different lengths of line clips. That way the pivot stays the same. I like consistency.
Hey, what can I say. We all have preferences.
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I've never used Ted's design because I didn't like the pivot for the line moving in and out. It effectively changes the handle pivot angle. Probably nothing to worry about, but it bugged me. It seemed to be introducting another unneeded factor in trimming. So I went with the Dirty Dan design that keeps the pivots and overhang the same but adjust for line length differences by using different lengths of line clips. That way the pivot stays the same. I like consistency.
Hey, what can I say. We all have preferences.
I do that too.
I use different clips to keep the overhang where I like it, I have a large selection. It is good to have the bars move, however, as you can change the overhang, even if you keep them even to each other.
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I've never used Ted's design because I didn't like the pivot for the line moving in and out. It effectively changes the handle pivot angle. Probably nothing to worry about, but it bugged me. It seemed to be introducting another unneeded factor in trimming. So I went with the Dirty Dan design that keeps the pivots and overhang the same but adjust for line length differences by using different lengths of line clips. That way the pivot stays the same. I like consistency.
Hey, what can I say. We all have preferences.
From what I've read elsewhere, you never were supposed to adjust neutral by sliding the pieces in and out, anyway. The idea was you could adjust overhang.
I always cut my lines perfectly equal in length... and adjust the airplane so that the controls are neutral when I hold the leadout tips together, so I've never needed any steenking adjustment, anyhow... but for the Ted handle, you were supposed to use the Dirty Trick with the line clips.
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but for the Ted handle, you were supposed to use the Dirty Trick with the line clips.
I had no idea that Dan *invented* the "trick". I just thought it was common sense. I do not think the overhang distance is ultra critical, but I do not like to see one way out and one way in. I actually change the clips at the airplane end. I was doing this before even flying the Ted handle. I have clips of every manufacture and type.
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Gee, Isky, how do you account for uneven line stretch? ;D
Yea, I suppose it would be good to keep the bars even.
You'd have to see Dan's setup. He has a unique handle. Very cool, actually. The "clips" are piano wire with a slot milled on one end and a circle clip that holds them in the holes of the handle. An eyelet put in at the other end. Pretty labor intensive to make, but it should last virtually forever. I doubt Dan invented it, but his implementation is pretty slick.
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Gee, Isky, how do you account for uneven line stretch? ;D
Yea, I suppose it would be good to keep the bars even.
You'd have to see Dan's setup. He has a unique handle. Very cool, actually. The "clips" are piano wire with a slot milled on one end and a circle clip that holds them in the holes of the handle. An eyelet put in at the other end. Pretty labor intensive to make, but it should last virtually forever. I doubt Dan invented it, but his implementation is pretty slick.
That sounds cool.
I thought you had to use "approved" line clips per the rules (I know swivels were illegal)...
...but heck, I don't know what the rules are any more. Now that they are online, they just seem to change at will.
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Brad,
With Dan's handle, standard scissor type clips are used, They hook to the little bars that attach to the handle. The little bars are of different lengths to adjust handle neutral. Trust me, they will pass any pull test that the plane is like to be subjected to.
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Just wondering when these handle will be available?
(http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7109.0;attach=20797;image)
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I like it. I'll buy some. Keep up the good work..... #^
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I thought you had to use "approved" line clips per the rules (I know swivels were illegal)...
Show mw ANYWHERE a requirement for line clips to be "approved". The ONLY requirement EVER has been that the clips be tested or pulled . and be capable of withstanding the total line pull for each clip. That was true even back in the days that George Aldrich was trying to get the Luxor Brand of clips banned. He never got them banned.
Bigiron
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Kaz's "MNT" handles are shown below. Howard uses one. They're aluminum and balsa, and all appear to have cables, so they're not for me. The reason there are photos of multiple handles, is because they are available in various sizes, to fit hands from small to large. Something like 5mm increments? As near as I can figure, Kaz has a single jpeg made up from multiple pictures for his home page, so you'll have to find the handles down a few rows and to the right. <sigh>
(http://homepage3.nifty.com/bluemax/mnt001mail_to_me.jpg)
About Brad's handle. "Heat treated 6061 aluminum" doesn't impress me. I've never seen any 6061 that wasn't heat treated to T6 condition, and that's just the way it is. I machine the stuff almost every day. It's soft and gummy and not nice to machine. But it is probably the least expensive aluminum you can get, the normal commercial grade stuff that lots of stuff is made from, and reasonably corrosion resistant. I'm not saying it's a bad choice of material. But to point out that it's heat treated makes it sound special, and it's definitely not anything special. In fact, it looks like a useful piece, since it doesn't have cables! How could we modify these to actually fit us?
I yam (sic) pretty happy to make the Tom Morris and Ted handles fit my hand, tho. Kits (or tailor made) are the way to go, IMO. I used Mike Haverly's "Ted" handle a few weeks ago, and it was about 1/4" too narrow for my paw. I didn't like that feature, but it's a nice handle. y1 Steve
"Soft and gummy?" I will say that 7075 would be a better choice. 6061 Properly heat treated to T6, is not soft and gummy. "Trying not to come across as an expert, being an "Aircraft Blacksmith" (Structural Repairman) for around 40 years...6061 T6 will work fine for this type of application. BTW...I will agree that 6061 in an annealed condition is not a machinist's favorite material.
Nice Handles Brad.
Norm
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I thought you had to use "approved" line clips per the rules (I know swivels were illegal)...
Show mw ANYWHERE a requirement for line clips to be "approved". The ONLY requirement EVER has been that the clips be tested or pulled . and be capable of withstanding the total line pull for each clip. That was true even back in the days that George Aldrich was trying to get the Luxor Brand of clips banned. He never got them banned.
Bigiron
Marvin and all. in the Control Line General Section item 5.0 it states that swivel clips are not allowed anywhere in the control system as far as connecting the handle to the lines or the lines to the airplane leadouts. Just read the rule. DOC Holliday
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Marvin and all. in the Control Line General Section item 5.0 it states that swivel clips are not allowed anywhere in the control system as far as connecting the handle to the lines or the lines to the airplane leadouts. Just read the rule. DOC Holliday
Doc--- "swivels ARE NOT CLIPS. You can take the swivels off the rest of the clips. Again--- SHOW ME.
Bigiron
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Yep, Brad, when will we see this one????? Seems a good market is already waiting.
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Brad,
Looks like you have a very marketable handle design , It is what we have been needing for people that are experimenting with different handles and hard point designs
Good Luck , I like it
Will
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Looks like you have a very marketable handle design , It is what we have been needing for people that are experimenting with different handles and hard point designs
Definitely makes a difference! I was skeptical until I tried it, not any more.
BTW, 6061 seems like a perfectly good choice. The very originals use soft brass and mine has one the order of 1000 flights. It has peened/flowed a bit around the holes, but no indications of excessive wear. The steel carriers probably need a bit of grease now and then. Hard steel wire on aluminum is probably not a big wear problem.
Just looking at it, the only thing I don't care for on this one is the rather thin grip, but it's probably easier to build it up with balsa/epoxolite, whatever, than to carve it away.
Brett
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Hi Brett,
I *think* it is supposed to be right there with the size of the E-Z Just as far as thickness.
For neutral adjustment, I would use different clips like we do with Ted's handle.
Brett, Have you used a Kaz handle? And, if so, how would you compare it to a *Fancher* handle? I have used both, but I would like an opinion from a much better pilot than I am! (seriously!)
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I *think* it is supposed to be right there with the size of the E-Z Just as far as thickness.
Brett, Have you used a Kaz handle? And, if so, how would you compare it to a *Fancher* handle? I have used both, but I would like an opinion from a much better pilot than I am! (seriously!)
I have flown with a Kaz handle, but not enough to really tell much about it. One thing I did notice was that the aluminum side plates left grooves in my fingers (top of index and bottom of pinky). That could be fixed. But it's going to have most of the same issues as any cable handle (although not as much as the Baron-style handles).
Just as an observation, the heavier the gauge of the cable, the worse it is as far as compliance. I finally figured out exactly why the cable causes springiness - its not compliance in extension, it's that stiff wire has to bend once it leaves the handle and you apply any control. Thicker wire is stiffer in side-side flex, so it can't turn the corner where it exits the handle. This also suggests that a rolling-contact type cable handle (like the one Gene Martine made, or to a lesser extent the old CLC handle) would be a lot better in this respect than a wire-through-hole type. Of course a pure rolling-contact handle also has a greatly exponential response if you use it with a straight bellcrank.
Seems to me the Walker/Fancher style hard-contact handle (like the one Brad shows above) essentially optimizes the system, and there's not a lot of good reason to mess around with cable handles any more.
Brett
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Since we are talking about handles, here's a prototype for a potential new product, available at some future date. It's unassembled, of course, and the grip can be configured any way you want.
Brett
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What are the minimum, and maximum line width spacing?
Ward
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I don't see this one on Brodaks web site. New and only available via phone order or did it just fall by the wayside?
I'll probably call him Monday unless someone knows more before then.
Thanks,
Lane
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did it just fall by the wayside?
I have emailed them a while back.. and John from Brodak replied "it will be available in March 08". then I emailed him again in March and I got no reply. so it probably fell by the wayside..... :( HB~>
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I saw some of Brad's new handle in the Brodak booth at Toledo so they haven't fallen by the wayside. John probably just fell behind on his correspondence getting ready for the show.
Pete
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Just got a reply from John, and looks like they will be available very soon.. #^
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No, actually it was an adjustable version of a handle I copied from Paul Walker after caddying for him in Shanghai in 1994. The hard point concept coupled to a properly shaped (symetrical up and down) grip seemed immediately better than the then ubiquitoes Baron style sliding cable type I had used for years. My original "adjustable" prototype was built within a week after returning from China and has never been retired for "serious" stunt work since.
When I sold them their origin was clearly spelled out in the instruction sheet that accompanied each handle kit. Paul, by the way, appeared to have patterned his handle (non adjustable for overhang) from the Hot Rock. I quite frankly "designed" the shape of mine by drawing around my last Hot Rock with a pencil. It was my opinion that the shape of the Hot Rock was pretty much beyond improvement ... still feel that way. Other than the materials for the grip, Brad's handle is functionally identical to the one that Carl now sells, including multiple sizes.
So, I pretty much copied the whole thing and never pretended I didn't. It's amazing how much can be accomplished if you don't care who gets the credit for the end product. This is particularly valuable if the end product is a step ahead of the products from which it was developed.
Although I'm aware Kaz markets a handle I've never examined one. Given his skills and knowledge of the event I've no doubt it is an excellent product. Bottom line, if you want to call your handle a Kaz handle, go for it.
Knowing Kaz, I doubt he'll object even if the two are substantially different in design.
I stopped selling my handle because I got tired of continually receiving complaints from another producer of handles who appeared to feel I shouldn't be selling them; or if I was going to sell them that I shouldn't suggest there was an advantage to the configuration that made them more or less unique at the time.
That's also the reason I didn't produce a second version almost identical to Brad's new one he's marketing through Brodak. The guy that did my laser cutting of the steel was prodding me to produce exactly the same sort of steel/plastic combo that Brad ended up with. A much better consumer product when produced in this way but the constant complaints from the other producer just took the fun out of doing it any more.
When Carl took over the handle commercially he gave me a half dozen kits as a thank you. They'll last me for whatever career I have left.
Ted
Ted, You have a lot of career left. I am 76 and still can put in a decent pattern and I am sure that you will when you are 76 or 80. Keep flyin
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What with all this noise about hard-point handles, I'm going to try one. I have one made from a "kit", and don't remember whose kit it is.
What the world needs is an assortment package of "clips" of various lengths, to get the adjustment just right. Is there such a thing?
Floyd in OR
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What with all this noise about hard-point handles, I'm going to try one. I have one made from a "kit", and don't remember whose kit it is.
What the world needs is an assortment package of "clips" of various lengths, to get the adjustment just right. Is there such a thing?
Floyd in OR
Jim Lee makes a cool little gizzy that allows you to make clips in 1/16" increments. I'd contact him through the vendors section of this website.
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I'm always glad to see new CL handles! It's a good sign for CL, IMO.
Good work, all.
L.
PS - Brett, your prototype looks good. Lou Crane offered a handle "kit" years
ago, which you carved your own grip. Mine has been a good one.
You might consider offering it with a simple preshaped grip for those who don't
have access to a router or wood rasp or Dremel sanding drum or such. The metal
portion looks simple and well designed, very nicely done.
"Ninety percent of the game is half mental." - Yogi Berra
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Brett,
The only thing I don't like about this handle design is if you're lines are almost exactly the same lenght, then you have to adjust the thing, sliding the bars in or out. I feel this introduces bias in the handle not really different from the forward cant (though it may be bacward I guess. I feel like the pivot the lines work off of needs to be perpendicular to the ground (square to the bellcrank). If it's slanted (and sliding the adjuster in or out introduces a slant) can, at least in my opinion, introduce a slant in referrence to the bellcrank. Granted, if your lines are pretty much exactly the same lenght, it's a moot point since the adjusting bars will be the same. But if not ...