Small PA Stunt designs?

[Andrew Tinsley]

Hallo Everyone,
  Going back 50 years or so, most UK stunt designs were for 2.5 cc diesel powered machines. With time marching on, PA type stunt designs got bigger and bigger and more and more expensive to build!
  Are there any modern stunt designs that are smaller? Let us say something that could be powered by an FP 20 with BBTU? I am talking about full fuselage designs not profiles. I find the latter to have too many problems with vibrations affecting the run. Flitestreaks are fine for sport use, but not for a little more serious competition.
  I appreciate that smaller stunt designs don't have the presence and stability of their larger brethren and I am sure folk will say "Nobler", but I reckon that the famous old war horse is a little too big for the FP 20. I am looking for a small modern design that can give good performance on modest power and won't break the bank when you are practising and are perhaps not up to the expert level! That is to say one can take risks without having too much of an outlay to lose if things go wrong! Any suggestions?

Regards,

Andrew.

[Wynn Robins]

With time marching on, PA type stunt designs got bigger and bigger and more and more expensive to build!

you said it yourself - the modern designs are bigger - so finding something to fit a 20 is going to be a little hard.  there are full fuse models that will fly on a 20 - like the Fancy Pants etc -but they are older designs than what you
are looking for.... 

there may be some smaller models available - but not aware of and "modern" full fuse ones.

[Randy Powell]

You can also just scale down a more modern design. Dirty Dan Rutherford had Pat Johnston do an 80% Impact and powered it with an FP20. Initially it was the standard BBTU setup, but later he went to an OS25FP with header and a MACS pipe (not because the original set up didn't work, but because he was experimenting). Flies quite well, too. This can be done with most any modern design. I know Pat has a ton of AutoCAD plans and can do this. I'm sure others can also.

[Larry Renger]

How about something really small?  We fly 1cc models at our club contests, and the performance is outstanding.  With the AP Wasp for power, we are doing patterns in the very high 400s.  Soon, I expect we will get into 500 territory.  RSM makes a couple of full fuselage stunters, the Pinto and the Hunter Stunter.  In addition there are the Sky Sport (RSM) and Baby Pathfinder (Brodak) kits that will fly with the big ones.

As mentioned, you can just scale down any design you like.  Generally 60% seems to be about right, to get an area between 220 and 250 sq.in.  The Baby Clown is 50% and actually too small, though it will do every competition maneuver.

[Garf]

I would love to get the plan for the baby Nobler.

[John Miller]

I've been working on one for .15's - .20's. I think the Magnum .15XLS would make a great engine for the design.

We have yet to prove the design, or in other words, we have not built one yet.

Here it is for you to look at.

[Dennis Adamisin]

How about something really small?  We fly 1cc models at our club contests, and the performance is outstanding.  With the AP Wasp for power, we are doing patterns in the very high 400s.  Soon, I expect we will get into 500 territory.  RSM makes a couple of full fuselage stunters, the Pinto and the Hunter Stunter.  In addition there are the Sky Sport (RSM) and Baby Pathfinder (Brodak) kits that will fly with the big ones.

As mentioned, you can just scale down any design you like.  Generally 60% seems to be about right, to get an area between 220 and 250 sq.in.  The Baby Clown is 50% and actually too small, though it will do every competition maneuver.

Roger that! I think the Pinto is Nos 30 legal too?  I have a 1/2A Pathfinder and it flies great.   I am working on a Magician 15 which at 240 squares is the same size as the PF.  THe magician would be CLassic legal too.

Of course I am cheatin too, my little ones are E-powered but turning "correct" size props. 

[Geoff Goodworth]

John, I know I've been pretty slow but all the balsa is sitting on the bench awaiting a visit to the laser cutter. Nothing heavier than 6.8 lb/cu ft and all the rib material is quarter sawn.   

I will be ordering the horns tonight and in a week or so, we will be building again.

Andrew, I'm building the biggest Lit'l Elle which I will try with both FP 20 and FP 25. At 49 1/4" span and 428 sq in, I expect the FP 20 to do a fine job but the FP 25 is still a bolt in so it's there for back up.

Talk to John about the plans.

Cheers, Geoff

[Leester]

The Cardinette is a 25 sized full fuselage plane. I believe Brodaks will be putting this out.

[Andrew Tinsley]

  Thanks for all the suggestions so far. Looks as if I have lots to choose from. Geoff, please let me know how your large "Little Elle" performs, it sounds very interesting!
  Larry, I flew lots of 1-1.5cc models in the past, the best of them were good stunt machines...........but, I found that I had to fly faster than I would be comfortable with, these days. I suppose one could use longer lines, but I got the distinct feeling that if they didn't howl around the circuit at high speed, then they would drop out of the sky! OK, I know that I am overstating the case, but I hope that you can get the flow of my concerns! I have not built any modern 1/2A stunters, so I may be completely wrong on this one, please let me know if I am totally wrong!

Thanks to all for some good ideas,

Andrew.

[George]

Andrew,

Two designs come to mind in the FP .20 size range. One is the full-fuselage version of George Aldrich's Peacemaker, and the other is the Little T-Bird which is a smaller version of Bob Palmer's famous Thunderbird.

George

[john e. holliday]

Both the Peacemaker and Little Thunderbird are good planes.  But, contact Brodaks about the Cardinette plans.  You won't be sorry.  I am flying mine with a little 4 stroke.  It just needs a pilot to do it justice.     Also the Old Timers are still great planes to learn the pattern on and will give you trimming practice.  Youj could also fly several events with one plane.

[Larry Renger]

The Baby Nobler was built from a set of "Green Box" plans taken to Kinko's an blown down 50%.  Don Butman did two of these models, Bill Heyworth has the other one.  I would scale it larger, about 60% if I were doing one myself.  Also, take heroic steps to lighten the tail end.  Don did solid surfaces and it took 1.5 ounces of lead in the nose for balance!  Buyilt-up like the original design is a must, along with the lightening holes in the fuselage sides.

We currently fly on a minimum of 45' lines, so lap times are in the 4.5 second to 5 second range.  The props of choice at present are APC 6x2 and 5.5x2.5.

We fly 1cc tomorrow at the Palmer Memorial contest at Whittier Narrows.  Y'all come!

[Dalton Hammett]

Hello Andrew

      I see the Nobler has been mentioned several times,  but there was a Jr. Nobler in the .15 - .19 size that I understand could be a good flyer too.   I have one but it hasn't been in the air as yet because I have always liked a bit more power.  It is a nice looking plane and you still see kits for it available now and then.  Also there are plans available for the old Veco Warrior, Papoose  and Brave that were for that size engine that can be fun to fly and can be very nice looking planes.

Dalton H.

[Bill Little]

HI Andrew,

I know you asked for *Modern Designs*, but I know the Fancy Pants will fly a great pattern and can be used up into Advanced.  Low cost (can scratch build from Brodak's plans) and the 20FP BBTU would be an excellent match, *I* think.  It is pretty sturdy, too!  My son flew his into the ground after a broken lead out, and it just took out the LG and tore a *little* silkspan.  It was back up the next day.  For a good flying practice plane, and Intermediate (at least) competitor, I would recommend it.  It took Aaron quite a ways.

EDIT:

   OOOPPPPSSSS!!!!!
I totally forgot about the Cardinette  which IS a *modern design*!  It should be a VERY good plane from all accounts.  I *think* Bob based it off of Windy's/Big Jim's aerodynamics: Windy's Cardinal.  And the BBTU 20FP would be able to fly it with no problem, I am sure.  Keep it fairly light would be my suggestion for a 20FP BBTU although the airfoil should be able to handle it anyway!  I have not found much difference in the BBTU 20FP and a *regular* 25FP.  If there is much power gain from the 25, I cannot *see* it in flying the same plane with either engine.  And the BBTU 20FP is a SOLID stunt run, truly very similar to a great piped run.

Big Bear

[George Grossardt]

The Cardinette is a 25 sized full fuselage plane. I believe Brodaks will be putting this out.

Anyone know when this is going to happen?  I'd be interested in getting one. 

[Bill Little]

   OOOPPPPSSSS!!!!!  I thought it was already out.................... 

Big Bear

[Robert Zambelli]

George - I designed the Cardinette around the Brodak 25 and it flew superbly. I used 55 foot .012 lines as I recall.
I also flew it with the OS Surpass 26 and the SAITO 30, the SAITO really hauled it around.

At this point, I have the prototype laser cut kit and I am doing the writeup for the instruction booklet.
Brodak may have just the plans for sale - it's VERY easy to build.

Brodak will soon be offering an ARF version. I gave the ARF prototype, powered by the B-25 to Roger Viziolo for evaluation.

You can contact Brodak for availability information.

Regarding the (BBTU?) 20 FP, I have no idea what it is so I cannot comment on how well the Cardinette would perform with one.

Bob Z.

[Roger Vizioli]

George - I designed the Cardinette around the Brodak 25 and it flew superbly. I used 55 foot .012 lines as I recall.
I also flew it with the OS Surpass 26 and the SAITO 30, the SAITO really hauled it around.

At this point, I have the prototype laser cut kit and I am doing the writeup for the instruction booklet.
Brodak may have just the plans for sale - it's VERY easy to build.

Brodak will soon be offering an ARF version. I gave the ARF prototype, powered by the B-25 to Roger Vizioli for evaluation.

You can contact Brodak for availability information.

Regarding the (BBTU?) 20 FP, I have no idea what it is so I cannot comment on how well the Cardinette would perform with one.

Bob Z.

George,
As Bob said, the Cardinette is here in Florida. Weather has been very windy or heavy rain but we have managed to get in some great flights. Power is a Brodak .25, fuel is Brodak 10%N,23%oil - 50/50. It flies great on 55' lines and we have used various length lines up to 60' from fuselage CL to handle. Engine/plane is a great combo and should do well competitively.
If anyone is in the area, it is here for you to try and provide your comments. It will be at Brodaks Fly In in June.
The Cardinette flies very well in windy conditions. Capable of the full modern pattern, turns a very nice, stable corner, great squares and triangles.
Bob's neat tank height adjustment setup is available for review in CL world. Have not had to adjust the tank but it would be easy, if necessary.
I plan to fly it again this Tuesday, weather permitting.  
More comments to follow.
Roger Vizioli
IRKS CL
Cocoa, FL  

[john e. holliday]

I found a picture of my Cardinette built from the plans I got from Brodaks.