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Author Topic: Small little change made a big difference  (Read 1860 times)

Offline Paul Taylor

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Small little change made a big difference
« on: January 29, 2025, 03:15:18 PM »
I swapped over to a Kaz handle and boy did it put new life in my old dog.
I really liked the way it flew today.

My flying buddy Dick Carville asked if I made any changes and I said yes a different handle.
Paul
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Small little change made a big difference
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2025, 06:59:01 PM »
What were you using before?

     Brett

Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Small little change made a big difference
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2025, 12:40:08 PM »
Went from a Tom Morris to a Kaz.
Line spacing seems the same. The Kaz fits tighter and is slimmer to grip.
Or maybe I just forgot how well the plane flys. She has been hanging up for awhile.
Any who I’m going to fly it more often.
Paul
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Small little change made a big difference
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2025, 01:07:17 PM »
Went from a Tom Morris to a Kaz.
Line spacing seems the same. The Kaz fits tighter and is slimmer to grip.
Or maybe I just forgot how well the plane flys. She has been hanging up for awhile.
Any who I’m going to fly it more often.

   The Kaz handle is much less compliant than the Baron-style handle. The difference is where the cable loops from the neutral adjuster though the sliders. When you move the controls those loops tighten up and loosen and soften up the control. What both handles have in common is that you also have to bend the cable when you move the controls, that also creates a curve in the cable that the loads either close up or open up, basically, another springy element. Interestingly, the thicker or stiffer you make the cable, the more compliant it gets, because the stiff cable pulls into a bigger radius curve. Larger cables also fail much sooner, because you put more stress in a large cable when you bend it.

   Another big step forward would be a Ted-style or Walker-style hard point handle, same effect to an even greater degree. I went straight from a Baron-style handle with a big old 1/16 7x7 Stainless aircraft cable to a Ted handle and I almost couldn't believe how much different it was.

     Brett

Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Small little change made a big difference
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2025, 02:42:50 PM »
Thanks for the feed back. I am temped to try it. My problem is gets one that is adjustable. My lines alway seem to be off 1/4 inch.  :D
Paul
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Small little change made a big difference
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2025, 03:14:50 PM »
Thanks for the feed back. I am temped to try it. My problem is gets one that is adjustable. My lines alway seem to be off 1/4 inch.  :D
With all of the combined engineering genius visiting this site, someone could probably come up with an adjustable, within a small range, say 1/4", line clip.

About the hard point.  It takes some getting used to but once you make the transition you will never want to go back.  I fly with very fast controls.  I use my fingers a lot and follow the plane with my arm.  When I switched I found that I could fly an entire pattern without using any wrist movement including triangles.  It was suggested that I try a light weight hardpoint and the change was even more dramatic.  The handle in the pic is 19grams w/o the lanyard.  I never thought the weight of the handle made any difference, until I tried it.  You really feel like your fingers are on the bellcrank and that takes some getting used to.  Try one and make a set of clips for the fine adjustments.  Once you have a set of clips you are home free.

Ken
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Small little change made a big difference
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2025, 03:17:12 PM »
Thanks for the feed back. I am temped to try it. My problem is gets one that is adjustable. My lines alway seem to be off 1/4 inch.  :D

   You can use different length clips (people usually make them themselves). The Ted handle has a small range of adjustment but you would not want to adjust it by 1/4". The Paul handle has no adjistment so you use the clips to adjust the neutral.

    Brett

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Small little change made a big difference
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2025, 04:56:22 PM »
Thanks for the feed back. I am temped to try it. My problem is gets one that is adjustable. My lines alway seem to be off 1/4 inch.  :D

   Search on here on how to make a tool for bending your own line clips for hard point handles. Jim Lee sells the tool and the wire needed for them. Since I have been experimenting with the new fishing lines for flying lines, I find that it's easier to get lines very close to even, and the adjustment that is there on the Kaz, Fancher, , Morris, or any hard point handle that has a slot to slide the brackets are usually enough for you to take up small amounts of slack. I just can't think of the name of the guy that came up with it. He is/was a forum member here. It uses a large diameter find threaded bolt with pins located on the hex head and nut for forming the wire around.

   Type at you later,
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Offline realSteveSmith

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Re: Small little change made a big difference
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2025, 04:58:46 PM »
The line clip bender mentioned above was designed by Derek Moran.

https://stunthanger.com/smf/lee-machine-shop/derek-moran-line-clip-bender/

Brent Williams will also sell you a set of 14 pre-made clips (7 pairs) that vary in length by 1/16" increments....Details in the thread below.

https://stunthanger.com/smf/brent-williams'-fancher-handles-and-cl-parts/ted-fancher's-precision-pro-handle-kit-by-brent-williams-information/
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Small little change made a big difference
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2025, 06:08:37 PM »
With all of the combined engineering genius visiting this site, someone could probably come up with an adjustable, within a small range, say 1/4", line clip.

Yup.  Done.  You carry around a bag of about a dozen clips; 8 in 1/32" increments to span that 1/4", plus some extra-long and extra-short ones for the really bad line-length oopsies.  If you're smart, you also carry a line clip bender and a bunch of blanks to bend into line clips.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Small little change made a big difference
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2025, 07:05:50 PM »
 
"clips"
No, I already have a bunch of those.  Just one adjustable one.  Not that we really need one, the set approach is perfectly fine.  It was more like an engineering challenge.  I am working on a hard point with one adjustable side, just for the fun of it.  Like the man said, "Anything worth doing is worth overdoing"  LL~

Ken
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Offline Joe Gilbert

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Re: Small little change made a big difference
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2025, 08:32:44 PM »
Sliding the moveable-part  in or out to adjust neutral is no good , use line clips to get the neutral. You will get different feel from up and down when overhand not equal.
Joe Gilbert

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Small little change made a big difference
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2025, 09:42:39 PM »
Sliding the moveable-part  in or out to adjust neutral is no good , use line clips to get the neutral. You will get different feel from up and down when overhand not equal.
You are right, I noticed that sketching out one today which takes me back to the adjustable clip.  I am starting to think they are only found on zero ounce stunters.
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Offline Perry Rose

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Re: Small little change made a big difference
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2025, 08:15:35 AM »
The slight change in overhang makes a noticeable difference.
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Small little change made a big difference
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2025, 02:23:38 PM »
... I am working on a hard point with one adjustable side, just for the fun of it.  Like the man said, "Anything worth doing is worth overdoing"  LL~

Ken

I haven't been practicing lately so I don't know if I could now.  But when I first tried the experiment, I could tell the difference between a 25 gram handle made from an old printed circuit board vs. an 18 gram handle made from carbon fiber plate.

Having a simple, light-as-possible handle assembly means having simple, light-as-possible clips.  So I use a collection of simple, light clips of varying sizes.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Small little change made a big difference
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2025, 09:41:48 PM »
I haven't been practicing lately so I don't know if I could now.  But when I first tried the experiment, I could tell the difference between a 25 gram handle made from an old printed circuit board vs. an 18 gram handle made from carbon fiber plate.

Having a simple, light-as-possible handle assembly means having simple, light-as-possible clips.  So I use a collection of simple, light clips of varying sizes.
I think you are right.  I use some super light fishing clips on the handle side.  My handle is 19g.

Ken
« Last Edit: February 03, 2025, 10:59:14 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Small little change made a big difference
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2025, 03:45:57 PM »
Use 3 stock Brodak or Sullivan clips and one odd-ball longer clip. Leave the odd-ball and one stock clip on the handle, and put the line spool and handle together in a quart sized Ziplock Freezer bag. One clip stays on the leadout and one on the airplane end of the line. Hook the lines up to the airplane and unspool them, then attach the handle. Just do it!  y1 Steve
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