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Author Topic: Skill Class Stunt Format, when did it start?  (Read 1142 times)

Offline Chris McMillin

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Skill Class Stunt Format, when did it start?
« on: August 01, 2008, 05:29:48 PM »
I can remember the local C/L Stunt contests in SoCal (SB Piston Poppers, Valley Circleburners, OC Thunderbugs) in the late sixties having Advanced and Expert.

It seems to me that the format was usually age classes for Jr and Sr, then split Open Stunt into Expert and Advanced. Other contests were straight age classes, like the SW Regionals.

Anyone have some early skill class knowledge?

Chris...

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Skill Class Stunt Format, when did it start?
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2008, 06:02:02 PM »
Memory is fuzzy but I was sitting in Wynn Paul's living room with Lou McFarland and a couple others in the Mid 70's talking about PAMPA and the skill classes were already being flown. Don't think PAMPA was that old at the time maybe a couple years...

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Skill Class Stunt Format, when did it start?
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2008, 06:33:33 PM »
Memory is fuzzy but I was sitting in Wynn Paul's living room with Lou McFarland and a couple others in the Mid 70's talking about PAMPA and the skill classes were already being flown. Don't think PAMPA was that old at the time maybe a couple years...

    1975 or so - it was in the current* form shortly after the formation of PAMPA. But the basic idea goes back much further than that. WAM had skill classes in all events from at least the 1948-49 time frame. I believe the WAM experience was the model for PAMPA skill classes. The 400/500 point break points were straight from the WAM rulebook, and when Intermediate came along, they added the 300 point split for Intermediate.  WAM only had (and still has in every event but stunt) BEG/ADV/EXP - no intermediate. Of course, at the time, Beginner flew the full pattern. not the reduced pattern we have now.

       WAM also had mandatory advancement plan. Score above the next breakpoint, and win, and you advanced to the next class - in time for next weekend's contest. Of course it was somewhat suceptible to the same problem we have discussed at length in the past - scoring irregularities. The WAM judging system was an error-counting system, and the theory was that it was so bulletproof that you could have only one judge, and even switch judges in the middle of the round with no effect. It's wasn't that bulletproof!

    WAM, in it's heyday, was a remarkable organization. It was a West-Coast version of AMA, complete with it's own insurance (allegedly - some, uh, irregularities, have surfaced that make that claim somewhat dubious). The contests were amazing - for all intents and purposed, it was like putting on the CL version of the NATS every other weekend. Normally, *every event in the rule book was offered at every contest*. And if there wasn't a site for 1/2A Beginner Payload or D Economy, they called it a "Limited", basically apologizing for leaving it out! Combat was "continuous" - when one guy lost, the other kept flying, the next guy ran out there, started flying, and on and on. You couldn't enter as an individual - you had to be a "club member"

      I went to a few of these contests, and I had never seen anything like it. The first contest I went to was in San Jose in 1983, and they assigned me to the Pacific Coast Flying Griffins club because Paul Isenhower, the president, was in line behind me. They made you wear your WAM number on you back so you could be identified for insurance purposes. I would guess they had about 100-120 entries at that particular contest, and they were complaining about how small everything was compared to the good old days!  They wouldn't accept AMA membership.

     Brett

p.s. I got to thinking about it, and the last WAM contest that was like described above that I went to was in the late 80's - Fun(d) Day, 1989, at Gilroy High school, I believe. I know the date because it was the first contest in which I flew a 40VF. It was a "Limited"  - Endurance and Economy weren't included. Jet Scale got them into trouble when someone flew their Dynajet MiG 15 at 9:00AM on a Sunday Morning.

     Entries went way down throughout the 80's and early 90's. Most of the events just died  (WAM Sport Race, Balloon bust hung in there for a while, carrier has been small but steady over the years, but most of the other event are long gone).  Stunt did pretty well the entire time, and since the early 90's, stunt entries have been steadily upwards. WAM, as it was, no longer exists as a separate entity. I think it was an AMA Chartered club for a while (irking the old-timers immensely) but now I don't know if that is still the case. We still have Fun(d) Day but it's usually only Stunt/Balloon/Carrier/HLG&Catapult now. I would guess that stunt entries rival the good old days, with 40-ish total entries at the better contests.   bb

Offline Mike Scholtes

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Re: Skill Class Stunt Format, when did it start?
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2008, 07:59:39 PM »
Well, thumbing through my pristine October 1963 "West Coast Model News" (the WAM magazine, "over 1900 active members") looking at just ONE of the control line contests in the San Francisco region on one weekend, the August 18 meet at Redwood city had as best as I can interpret the results THIRTY FIVE categories of competition! This included stunt, scale, carrier, combat, balloon bust, speed. The stunt category was subdivided into Novice, Class A Beginner, Class A Advanced-Expert, Class BC Beginner, Class BC Advanced, Class BC Expert. The other events were equally Byzantine in their organization. One "Jim Aron" in the under-19 bracket was flying in BC Beginner that day. Imagine trying to stage contests like that today! And there were contests all over the region about every two weeks. Other notable names were Bob English, Rudi Aron, W. (Walt?) Ghio and somebody named Fancher. But not THAT Fancher.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Skill Class Stunt Format, when did it start?
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2008, 09:20:44 PM »
Well, thumbing through my pristine October 1963 "West Coast Model News" (the WAM magazine, "over 1900 active members") looking at just ONE of the control line contests in the San Francisco region on one weekend, the August 18 meet at Redwood city had as best as I can interpret the results THIRTY FIVE categories of competition! This included stunt, scale, carrier, combat, balloon bust, speed. The stunt category was subdivided into Novice, Class A Beginner, Class A Advanced-Expert, Class BC Beginner, Class BC Advanced, Class BC Expert. The other events were equally Byzantine in their organization.

     Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention this - every event, including stunt, was also divided by engine class. Sometimes they were combined, so for stunt alone you might have:

1/2A Novice (Novice was for Juniors)
1/2A Beginner (adults)
1/2A Advanced
1/2A Expert
A Novice
A Beginner
A Advanced
A Expert
B/C Novice
B/C Beginner
B/C Advanced
B/C Expert

Then for Endurance

1/2A Novice
1/2A Beginner
1/2A Advanced
1/2A Expert
A Novice
A Beginner
A Advanced
A Expert
B Novice
B Beginner
B Advanced
B Expert
C Novice
C Beginner
C Advanced
C Expert


Then for Economy
1/2A Novice
1/2A Beginner
1/2A Advanced
1/2A Expert
A Novice
A Beginner
A Advanced
A Expert
B Novice
B Beginner
B Advanced
B Expert
C Novice
C Beginner
C Advanced
C Expert
 
Then for Cargo...  (you get the idea)

    One thing I do know - NEVER volunteer to judge 1/2A Novice or Beginner Stunt! I once stood out in the 100+ degree Sacramento sun for about two hours and never saw an engine even start and keep running.

    I might also note that I am the proud holder of the WAM A Stunt High Score record, using my Skyray that was later determined to be illegal for A Stunt (since a 20FP is actually a 21). David hold the 1/2A record, and Ted holds the B/C record (only because they stopped keeping records before my 616.5 was posted).



One "Jim Aron" in the under-19 bracket was flying in BC Beginner that day. Imagine trying to stage contests like that today! And there were contests all over the region about every two weeks. Other notable names were Bob English, Rudi Aron, W. (Walt?) Ghio and somebody named Fancher. But not THAT Fancher.

   Not THAT Fancher, indeed. But you have the right Uncle Jimby. Rudi was out at the site right before we left for the NATs. Bob English judges Expert at about every contest. Walt is CDing on the ARF Contest day after tomorrow!

     Brett


   

Offline Mike Scholtes

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Re: Skill Class Stunt Format, when did it start?
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2008, 11:44:57 PM »
I showed this magazine to Jimby and THAT Fancher at Woodland last season and we were all surprized to learn there was a Fancher active in Bay Area stunt back then not related to OUR guy. I knew the 1963 Arons are the same as the 2008 Arons. Bob English too. But I was surprized to see Walt's CL pedigree runs so deep; I know him as a God of Free Flight primarily. I flew combat and carrier back then so didn't really know the stunt people well. Too busy digging combat ships out of holes in the sod.

Contests drew spectators and needed roped-off areas to keep the crowds at bay. And that smell of nitrobenzine in the morning...Reminds me of...speed.

Will the Mystery Pilots Association be making any appearances at the ARF contest?

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Skill Class Stunt Format, when did it start?
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2008, 11:36:50 AM »
Thanks guys,
WAM was always spoken of in our house but we did not go to their contests, probably the 500 mile drive was the reason.
Sorry I missed them, we were in SoCal from '66 on so that would have been a real neat deal. At that time I had my trusty PDQ Flying Clown all re-powered by a Veco 19 and it would fly all the maneuvers, well...I had a lot to learn.

Brett, thanks for the indepth descriptions of the WAM contests. I can see where the SoCal guys picked up the ideas.
Chris...

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Skill Class Stunt Format, when did it start?
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2008, 03:38:57 PM »
Will the Mystery Pilots Association be making any appearances at the ARF contest?

   I have it on good authority that Unknown Pilot #2 will participate, and there was even a rumor that he was seen *practicing* this morning with the airplane he will borrow to fly in the contest. He has promised to use the very same paper bag he used last year.

    The Strega used to win last year's ARF-OFF International championship may be available to purchase, depending on Unknown Pilot #1's availability to visit.

     Brett


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