Silhavy Caudron stunter

[Airacobra]

I was looking through an issue of American Modeller last night and came across this photo of Jim Silhavy, Dick Williams and Ed Southwick. I would like to hear more about the plane pictured as it appears not much has been documented on this plane. The plane was flown in the World Championships in Kiev, Russia.

[Mark Scarborough]

Keith, not to be a stickler, but doesnt the caption state that the Caudron is Williams' " Scale like entry" ?

[Airacobra]

It does say that, but I thought that this was the year that Williams had his plane "stolen" and flew this plane built by Silhavy instead. If you look, isn't that Silhavy fuelling the plane.

[Dennis Adamisin]

Mark:
Yup, that's what the caption says, but that is Jim holding the fuel bulb - I thnk the caption is incorrect

OK I got this story 2nd hand, maybe some of the Cleveland crew can verify, clarify - or refute!

GMA designed a bird called the Magnum - the story is that it looked even more like the Cauldron thatn the Nobler did including a much more aggressive wing taper ratio.  Apparently as designed it left some folks - including Jim Silhavy - dissappointed.

The story continues that the Magnum wing was used in a re-proportioned fuselage and became Gerry Cipra's Senior champion "Palomino" and John Havels "Folkerts".

[Airacobra]

Dennis, this was my thought that the caption was written incorrectly as well. I also thought that someplace I saw a photo of Jim holding the same plane, but I can't place where I saw it. I do beleive that Frank McMillan built a Magnum that you are speaking about, but I have no report on how it flew. Maybe they will fill us in to help fill in some of the gaps. Your information has been very helpful.

[billbyles]

It does say that, but I thought that this was the year that Williams had his plane "stolen" and flew this plane built by Silhavy instead. If you look, isn't that Silhavy fuelling the plane.

That is exactly what happened at the 1962 Worlds.  Dick Williams had his airplanes lost by the airline that they were supposed to be on so Jim Silhavey graciously volunteered to let Dick fly his backup airplane.  As a kid in the 1950s Ed Southwick was my mentor and I knew and flew with him until his death in 2002.  Ed told me that story in some detail.  Further, on the way home, Lufthansa would not allow Ed's model box to be placed on the airplane so he had to take them out of the box & put them in the cargo hold.  Upon arrival in Germany the models had been crushed so badly that Ed just removed the engines and hardware and put the remainder in the trash can. 

[Dennis Adamisin]

There was an article a long time ago (American Modeler, Jan/Feb 1963)  titled "What Went Wrong at Kiev?" - I think this team was the Kiev team.  I only have the first page (on the back of a plan page) does anyone out there have the rest of the article?

Now, hearing "the rest of the story", about flying borrowed airplanes, at a site with NO practice space - suddenly it starts getting clearer.

[Dennis Saydak]

Mark: GMA designed a bird called the Magnum - the story is that it looked even more like the Cauldron thatn the Nobler did including a much more aggressive wing taper ratio.  Apparently as designed it left some folks - including Jim Silhavy - dissappointed.

Speaking of GMA's Magnum ... here's mine under construction. As you can see the wing has severe planform taper. It's been sitting unfinished for a couple of years. As soon as I get a few other projects completed I'll get back to work on the Magnum. It won't take much to finish it. Thanks to Serge Krause for the plan and Frank for the rib templates.

[billbyles]

There was an article a long time ago (American Modeler, Jan/Feb 1963)  titled "What Went Wrong at Kiev?" - I think this team was the Kiev team.  I only have the first page (on the back of a plan page) does anyone out there have the rest of the article?

Now, hearing "the rest of the story", about flying borrowed airplanes, at a site with NO practice space - suddenly it starts getting clearer.

Hi Denny,

Ed told me that they had only the main circle to fly on for both practice and officials and there was almost no practice allowed for most of the teams from the free world.  Not only was there a high fence surrounding the paved circle, but there were high trees surrounding the circle.  If you happened to be the unlucky flyer when the wind came up it was dicey, to say the least.  I think that David and Paul are well acquainted with that scenario.

He said that the hotel they stayed in was really old but adequate and came complete with a KGB shadow.  Ed told me that the KGB guys were dressed just like the spys in the old "Spy vs. Spy" comics with the trench coats and fedoras.  They followed all of the flyers wherever they went, even if it was just to go for a walk.

Ed said that the American team befriended a Ukrainian teenage boy who was just fascinated with model airplanes.  They gave this kid a bunch of model stuff when it came time to go home.

[Brett Buck]

Dennis, this was my thought that the caption was written incorrectly as well. I also thought that someplace I saw a photo of Jim holding the same plane, but I can't place where I saw it. I do beleive that Frank McMillan built a Magnum that you are speaking about, but I have no report on how it flew.

  I have heard, also second or third-hand, that the design didn't fly too well, from a couple of different sources.  Frank told me he built one, I would contact him.

     Brett

[Serge_Krauss]

Apparently Frank's flies well. I have a photocopy of GMA's original plans, with penciled-in tail extension and modified nose. Bill Netzeband's column of that time hinted that while others wanted to build it, George was not that enthusiastic about it. The plans also show penciled-in attempts to route the leadouts through the l.e., indicating that the c.g. was misplaced, perhaps due to mistaking the c.g., due to not understanding the rearward position of the N.P. that resulted from the extreme l.e. sweep. I have heard that more than one well-flying Magnum have been built - and Frank's flew at a VSC. I believe Dennis has correspondence indicating Frank's satisfaction with his model, but why not ask him? Yes Cipra's "Palomino" does have that extreme taper too.

SK

[Dennis Adamisin]

Are Palomino plans available?

[Airacobra]

The Palomino plans would be nice, and I think Jim's rendetion of the Magnum would be a nice addition to the plans bin. The Caudron is different enough from the original Magnum to warrant a set of plans for another Classic project.

[Larry Renger]

There is a replica Caudron being built at Flabob airport in Riverside.  I have some photos!  Pretty little (and I mean LITTLE!) aircraft.

[Trostle]

  I have heard, also second or third-hand, that the design didn't fly too well, from a couple of different sources.  Frank told me he built one, I would contact him.

     Brett

I could go back through the records, but I am sure that Frank flew his Aldrich Magnum at several VSC's  In my conversations with Frank, he liked the airplane.  Frank is always in the top echelon of fliers at VSC and he did so with the Magnum.  (The only times Frank has not placed well at VSC have been when he along with many others fall victim to the wind gods at the Tucson field.)  Again, I would have to go through the records, but I think it was the Magnum he lost when he lost his balance backpedalling in a really nasty wind and fell over backwards   (A lot of airplanes were lost that day and even were not even flown.)

Keith

[John Miller]

It does say that, but I thought that this was the year that Williams had his plane "stolen" and flew this plane built by Silhavy instead. If you look, isn't that Silhavy fuelling the plane.

When I talked with Dick Williams while preparing the article on his Electra, the plane that wound up missing in Kiev, he related the following to me.

"I made the team that year as the first alternate. It turned out that George Aldrich couldn't go, so I went in his place. I saw my model box being loaded on the plane, when we arrived, it wasn't there. Now, I don't think it was taken because they were afraid I would do well, instead, I think it was to cause problems with our teams placings. Jim Silhavey graciously loaned me his back up Caudron. It flew OK, but not as good as my plane." He then related some other stories about that trip, but it's not germain to this discussion.

[Serge_Krauss]

Back from more weekend adventures, I looked into my stash of Aldrich "Magnum" materials. Here's what I found:

An envelope of GMA's "Magnum" templates (incomplete, as I recall). It had also contained his "Peacemaker" templates, but the person whose high bid won those plans kept those templates, before generously giving the "Magnum" ones to me.

Frank McMillan's "Control Line Aerobatics" column from May, 1995 containing a photo with this caption: "Frank McMillan's Aldrich Magnum has O.S. .35S chromed by George, and at 37 ounces is a super flier."

An e-mail from Dennis, after speaking with Frank, reporting that Frank had built one in the early 1960's and another in the '80's, plus a couple original stunters using the "Magnum" wing and tail. His "Magnums" were stock, except for adjustable leadouts, and he didn't see any need to shorten the nose or lengthen the tail (as penciled into the plan). He said it flies "extremely well" when properly trimmed, and he placed 2nd with it at a west-coast Nats. cg was very sensitive, he recommended sealing the hinges, and he said that it must be built light - less than 40 oz. He reported that there was a second rib and spar plan sheet (Dennis provided that later). There were other structural hints. Thanks again, Dennis!

Copy of Frank's letter: it included observations concerning the slim fuselage vs motor selection, cockpit canopies, the rib patterns, and the fight to keep the nose light in order to avoid having to shorten it.

I remember receiving an e-mail from Frank saying that there is no reason to make any changes in the model, because it flies just fine as-is. I cannot find this, and my archived e-mails disappeared with move to a new drive. Apparently all moment dimensions are same as Nobler dimensions. I note that GMA dated the original plans 6/61, and various of his pencilled in changes (lead-out positions, shortened nose, lengthened tail) around 8/22/61. Frank's red Magnum shows up in Bob Hunt's VSC video in flight (I think) and a couple times in the concours-judging scans.

Dennis' model looks great - 'hope to see it completed soon.

[Dennis Saydak]

Serge, I haven't looked at the plan for awhile but I recall that one of the notations was to move the belcrank pivot point back about 7/8" because of the severe L.E sweep. I don't think that George had an ajustable lead out guide in his model so I suspect his may have flown with too much outward yaw. I moved the pivot point back and installed an ajustable L.O. guide in mine. Hopefully it will fly ok.

[Dennis Adamisin]

Dennis S
I forgot to compliment you on the great Magnum framework you have there.  Hope you can get back to it and git-er-done soon.

Serge:
Thanks for the back-stroy on Frank's Magnum.  I will say at 37 oz it had a pretty good chance of success even if there WERE problems with the design.

Idle thought: if nose-heaviness is a problem with it, the Magnum might be a good candidate for electric conversion.  The motors are light and the battery coud be pushed back into the wing LE - thus minimizing the impact on CG... 

[Serge_Krauss]

One thing I forgot to mention, and without access to "Nobler" plans, I can't verify this with accuracy, but...

Knowing how most measure their moments (measuring from the l.e. and hinge line at the root), any intended correlation of "Magnum" moments with the "Nobler" may have been foiled by the extra l.e. sweep. The neutral point moves back with extra i.e. sweep, and with it the proper location for the c.g. Nose and tail moments are correctly measured with reference to the c.g. So the actual tail arm has been shortened, and the nose moment arm, for balancing purposes, has been lengthened by increasing l.e. sweep. Possibly, the shorter tail arm is compensated in the tail-volume coeffiicient by a diminished MAC?  The "Magnum's" flaps taper a lot too. That may aid lift distribution and turning. In short, the "Magnum" may be a more different plane than it seems. 'just - more or less - guessing here, but I still really like the plane.

SK

[Trostle]

For those that might be interested, here are some details on the George Aldrich Magnum.  When he wrote the Round and Round column in Model Airplane News, Pete Soule ran a 12 month series of short descriptions of some of the more significant stunt designs that were seen primarily in the '60's.  Each month, a small sketch was published with a paragraph that discussed the model.  The sketches were developed by Jim Mayfield who was a really good builder/flier in the Los Angeles area at that time.  Hopefully, the sketch  below shows basically what the Magnum looked like.  This was in the May 1969 issue of Model Airplane News.  The following  was written by Soule:

"THE MAGNUM

"The creation in 1960 and subsequent underground distribution of George's 'Magnum' is an unusual tale, illustrating that aerobatic pilots are not above the 'Don't stick beans up your nose' mode of human foibling.  Just as the original Nobler's got their realism from the Caudron C-460 of the 30's, the Magnum too after th Folkerts.  The effort was to remove bulky lines by highly tapered wings and stab.  The effect was achieved, but the result didn't satisfy George and he kept it quiet.  This was all the boys needed and the CIA was never busier.  A number of ringers appeared in various colors around Cleveland and Indianapolis, all beautiful, heavy and smooth.  Thruout all this activity George busily denied the worth of said machine, but the lads prevailed, ultimately proving him right.  Shows the reputation of "The Man' tho.  Our standard numbers analysis revealed only one areal of departure.  The highly tapered wing resulted in a 6 degree quarter-chord rake angle which moved the aerodynamic center of the wing aft approx. 1 1/4 inches.  Since the CG isn't located we suspect everyone tried to force it into the usual position relative to root chord and ended up with course balance with subsequent sluggishness.  Probably the line rake was also excessive, which willkill the most carefully laid out machine.  In every other respect it fall right on top of the stack of 'classic' ratios.  So goes the tale of the worst kept secret in aerobatics."

What Pete Soule wrote 40 years ago coincides with some of the statements in some of the posts above. 

Interesting.

Keith

[Will Davis]

Where we the leadouts located on some of the more recent flying Magnum models ?

In 1994 I went to VSC with Curtis Comer , the designer of the Skydancer , another design with more taper than the standard, I built two Skydancers , both had different leadout locations. The forward leadout actually exited ibn the leading edge of the wing , the rear was in the tip .later the model was published in Flying models with what we felt like was the  proper leadout location.

George Aldrich was there and took alot of interest in the Skydancer , telling me that he liked the  more than standard tapered wing designs . later I found out about his  Magnum ..

Below is a picture the original  Skydancer with Curtis Comer Holding ,  model was still around and competing in 1993, and my 1993 copy .


Will

[Brett Buck]

Probably the line rake was also excessive, which willkill the most carefully laid out machine.  In every other respect it fall right on top of the stack of 'classic' ratios. 

     This is the only issue that I see with it, but it's a pretty big one. And bear in mind that this was when they were trying to manufacture line tension by intentionally yawing the model out, so good luck getting it to tangent. That's also one of the things keeping me from building a Fierce Arrow, although you could probably get away with a very large yaw angle without much impact in that case.

     Brett

[Will Davis]

This is the Folkerts Speed King at Brodak's  in O7 , do not know if it has any connections with the Magnum..very nice model built in the 60's , a subject of another post  ,   ,

A very good way to get around the  adjustable leadout issue on swept wings, box  under wing opened up, alot like a tip weight box , you then pulled the leadouts back into the box, then put the  leadouts  into the desired new exit guide hole in tip of wing ,unly issue would be the slot open to the air on the keading edge. Could make a plug for the slot..

We  could use this method on the Skydancer or other wings  with alot of taper , to get leadout location close to the c/g   . .Beats building a new plane to test different leadout locations

Will

[Jim Pollock]

I too built one of Curtis's Skydancers.  It was light and powered with a Fox .35 which I changed to an OS FP .35 later.  I apparently had my leadouts in a good location because I could get it to fly tangent.  Mine was somewhat nose heavy though and wouldn't corner the way I wanted it too.  When I left Huntsville for Northern Virginia in Oct 2002 I gave it to someone, not sure who, it could have been either Ty or Rollin.  I also passed on my All American Sr.  I do think Ty might have ended up with that one?

Jim Pollock   

[Will Davis]

Jim,

With a OS 35 s , lightweight muffler and solid tail surfaces,mine came out around 38 ounces and balances right on the plans, I add 1/2 oz nose weight when it is real calm and take it out when the wind blows to help stop some of the windup during loops , Location of the leadouts is what is on the plans . I have really enjoyed flying this plane since 1993. plan to compete at Brodak's this year with it, I did not know you had built one .Great to hear that .

Will

[Paul Walker]

Now, hearing "the rest of the story", about flying borrowed airplanes, at a site with NO practice space - suddenly it starts getting clearer.
[/quote]

This has to be true.  In 1988, we were given a tour of the '62 World Champs site. It was on an island in the Dnipro river right next to Kiev. I just went to a Google maps tour and the control line circle is still there. Circle, singular.  It was shared by all.....Stunt, speed, TR.  It is surrounded by trees, and couldn't possibly have any quality flying weather.  I feel sorry for those guys.

However, on our return trip, Jimmy had his model box dropped from the cargo loader into the 747 three times. The last time shattered the box, and damaged the plane. I can clearly remember his red face after having watched the events happen, and he was going outside to "teach" those guys a lesson...NJ style I figure.  He came back quite somber for some reason!  This was in Moscow.

No practice or minimal practice...That's more normal than not.

Maybe we should run our Team Trials by allowing only two practice flights each for the competitors.  That would simulate the conditions they will go to!  And it could be held at a place like the GSCB field. 

Or, we could have it at Muncie will the 600 x 600 grass circle to practice on, with several good circles for the officials....Maybe even the Team Race circles.....Again, much closer to the quality of field they will see than the "L" pad.

Kiev.....Never again....