Author Topic: Sig WWI profile biplanes (Read 15017 times)

LARRY RICE · « **on:** February 11, 2008, 02:23:01 PM »

I have talked with Sig Mfg and have their permission to manufacture their two WWI Profile biplanes. I believe that they were a Fokker D-7 and a SPAD-7. Neither I nor Sig have a copy of the plans. Can anyone help so we can get these fine models out? I believe that they were for a .35 size engine and were originally made by Berkley.
Larry

Jay · « **Reply #1 on:** February 11, 2008, 03:48:10 PM »

SIG

FOKKER DVII: ($13.00) Sig's profile biplane. 33" span, 295 sq.in.
Kit Plans

SPAD 7: ($13.00) Sig's profile biplane. Companion to the Fokker D7. 30.5" span, 285 sq.in. Kit Plans

As found on Barry Baxter's website.

http://www.controllineplans.com/frameset2.htm

john e. holliday · « **Reply #2 on:** February 11, 2008, 04:51:15 PM »

Two great sport designs. I had the Spad and a fellow club member had the Fokker. The Flying Eagles was going to host a WWI combat event, but, could not get enough people interested. The Fokker flew like a Bi-Slob in the club members hand. Wish I could remember his name. I also think they would be great with a 25 instead of the 35's we used. DOC Holliday

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #3 on:** February 11, 2008, 05:04:12 PM »

I remember back in the 60's, a friend had the Fokker, and it was one of the coolest c/l planes I have ever seen in the air. I just may have to build one for my new in the box shiney case Fox 35.

Clint Ormosen · « **Reply #4 on:** February 11, 2008, 06:13:53 PM »

Larry, if you kit them, I'll take one of each.

Clint Ormosen · « **Reply #5 on:** February 11, 2008, 06:16:05 PM »

Hey while you're at it, see if you can get them to let you kit the Akrobat, Mustang, and Magnum.

Gordon Tarbell · « **Reply #6 on:** February 11, 2008, 06:25:59 PM »

If you kit the akrobat ,I will take one! still have the mustang on the shelf.

David Miller · « **Reply #7 on:** February 12, 2008, 12:29:50 AM »

I believe I saw the Berkely P-40 on Barry Baxter's web site.

Mike Gretz · « **Reply #8 on:** February 12, 2008, 06:41:59 AM »

FYI - The Spad and Fokker were never kitted by Berkeley. They were SIG designs which came on the market in 1967-68, right before the CL-3 Chipmunk. Designed by a C/L modeler in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

Mike Gretz
SIG Mfg Co

Terry Bolin · « **Reply #9 on:** February 12, 2008, 07:10:21 AM »

I built the Fokker in 2006, It's a fun little airplane for cuttin' up. I used a Fox 35. Would recommend building the tail section after the wing using the truss method. This would help the balance!
T

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #10 on:** February 12, 2008, 07:11:59 AM »

Thanks Mike, I guess I just assumed...sorry I did not mean to mislead. I miss those great old Sig planes. You know that I will be using the Sig decals and hardware and wood in the kits.

I have placed an order for the plans and the only change that I see right off is that we will want to use our new wing construction. It makes a lot stronger lighter wing.
Thanks all
Larry
Black Hawk Models

Mike Spiess · « **Reply #11 on:** February 12, 2008, 09:09:22 AM »

Go for it Larry put me down for one each. Ever since I was a kid with a Sig catalog in my hand I've wanted one of them. But I could not afford a Fox 35 let alone a kit. Now I have the resources.

Dan Labine · « **Reply #12 on:** February 12, 2008, 10:27:46 AM »

I just bought the plans for both planes. I had the Fokker in the early 70's. Flew great with an Enya 35. I'll take two of each when you kit them..

Dan

James Lee · « **Reply #13 on:** February 12, 2008, 02:49:43 PM »

And from Mike's post it would appear that they are Classic legal...

later
Jim

Robert McHam · « **Reply #14 on:** February 12, 2008, 03:23:13 PM »

I too had one of the Fokkers in the early 70s! What a fun plane it was. The kit was so much easier to build than the Sterling Flyin' Fool. The FF I wanted more but none of the parts fit worth a darn. Most of the ribs were of different sizes and well...

Anyway I think that the Fokker will be a good seller for you!

Robert

Bill Little · « **Reply #15 on:** February 13, 2008, 07:00:05 PM »

Hi Larry,

I have to add my name to one of the guys who had a D-7. Must have been around 1972, and I used a McCoy Red Head 35 like the pictures showed. Used red silk and red Aerogloss to finish it off. I found some of the red silk (left over) about 6 months ago!

Terry Bolin · « **Reply #16 on:** February 13, 2008, 07:54:54 PM »

This how mine turned up. NOW Wait! I know it's the wronge colors. This one was captured by our side, tore down for inspection and redone with USA colors. OR Maybe a Air show unit....Yea, that's the ticket!
None the less, it is a lot of fun, easy to build also!

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #17 on:** February 14, 2008, 01:43:34 AM »

I'm sure Mike Gretz will know the finer details, but these were published in the SIG Air Modeler Magazine before they were kitted, I think. I have both kits, and have all seven of the SIG Air Modeler Magazines, if there is anything that you would like to duplicate from the kit, or add a copy of the original construction article. It may have been included with the original kits, as there was an instruction sheet with it. I haven't looked at them for a while. Neat little cartoons on them that add a lot of nostalgia appeal. I had the Spad as a kid, and my younger brother Jim had the Fokker, and I still have a few bits and pieces of mine around here somewhere. They are both on my "too do" list, just because of what they are! I would probably add your kits to the collection also!
So many airplanes and so little time!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #18 on:** February 14, 2008, 07:07:23 AM »

Dan, I do like to have as much info as possible before I start making a kit, I get lots of questions. Thank You for your offer.
It is always nice to get all of this encouragement when you are planning a kit and I want to thank each of you for it. In a conference call with the laser cutter we encouraged him to do these two kits first and quickly. If he does that we may be looking at a July/August release. We are hoping to get the "Giant King Pin" out before then and the "Night Hawk" out in two weeks. Late this year we plan a competition stunt model and a "Easy Build" scale model. I am looking forward to a very exciting year.

thanks all
Larry

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #19 on:** February 14, 2008, 12:40:07 PM »

Dan,
Mike is sending me all of the material.
Thank you for your offer.
Larry

Mike Gretz · « **Reply #20 on:** February 14, 2008, 12:56:59 PM »

Dan and all,

I'll save you a search by posing the SIG AIR-MODELER article here. Enjoy!

Mike Gretz

Mike Gretz · « **Reply #21 on:** February 14, 2008, 12:59:45 PM »

Mike Gretz · « **Reply #22 on:** February 14, 2008, 01:00:18 PM »

Mike Gretz · « **Reply #23 on:** February 14, 2008, 01:00:54 PM »

another

Mike Gretz · « **Reply #24 on:** February 14, 2008, 01:01:33 PM »

last page of article

Mike Gretz · « **Reply #25 on:** February 14, 2008, 01:02:28 PM »

the cover

Mike Gretz · « **Reply #26 on:** February 14, 2008, 01:13:18 PM »

I was wrong about the airplanes being designed by a guy in Cedar Rapids. I didn't start at SIG until 1972, so this was a few years ahead of my time. I'd always assumed the "Kirk Kirkham" was another pen name for Larry Conover -- a World Championship free-flight flyer from Cedar Rapids who was a very good friend of Glen Sig's, and who wrote several articles for the SIG AIR-MODLEER magazine. Because he wrote so many articles he often used a pen name. I thought this was one of those, but further investigation reveals that there really was a Kirk Kirkham from Colorado. Kirk and his fellow club members evidently had quite a fun time flying WWI combat with these airplanes and the Johnny Casburn SE-5A. In one of the article pictures you can see that they also had a Nieuport!

A quick google search of Kirk Kirkham tells me that he may still be building SAM models in Colorado. I will try to find out more.

Also, the issue of SIG AIR-MODELER that came out just before the one with the article also had news of the SPAD and FOKKER - see attached.

Mike G

Michael Boucher · « **Reply #27 on:** February 14, 2008, 03:21:48 PM »

It would be very cool to have both the Nieuport and SE-5A kitted as well if more information could be found out about them.

Jim Rhoades · « **Reply #28 on:** February 14, 2008, 04:27:14 PM »

Quote from: Mike Gretz on February 14, 2008, 01:13:18 PM

I was wrong about the airplanes being designed by a guy in Cedar Rapids. I didn't start at SIG until 1972, so this was a few years ahead of my time. I'd always assumed the "Kirk Kirkham" was another pen name for Larry Conover -- a World Championship free-flight flyer from Cedar Rapids who was a very good friend of Glen Sig's, and who wrote several articles for the SIG AIR-MODLEER magazine. Because he wrote so many articles he often used a pen name. I thought this was one of those, but further investigation reveals that there really was a Kirk Kirkham from Colorado. Kirk and his fellow club members evidently had quite a fun time flying WWI combat with these airplanes and the Johnny Casburn SE-5A. In one of the article pictures you can see that they also had a Nieuport!

A quick google search of Kirk Kirkham tells me that he may still be building SAM models in Colorado. I will try to find out more.

Also, the issue of SIG AIR-MODELER that came out just before the one with the article also had news of the SPAD and FOKKER - see attached.

Mike G

Mike,

I thought that Kirk was the designer of these models but wasn't positive. His first name is Gaylord and of course Kirk was his nickname. He lived in Grand Junction Co. I believe when he designed them. He's moved since to somewhere else in Colorado. An interesting fellow.

Jim Rhoades

Mike Gretz · « **Reply #29 on:** February 14, 2008, 07:59:53 PM »

Thanks Jim! Does that look like Kirk on the cover of the magazine?

Mike

john e. holliday · « **Reply #30 on:** February 14, 2008, 09:00:22 PM »

Hey Larry, old DOC Holliday here would like to be in the ocunt for the WWI airplanes. At least one of each as they were a ball to fly. Later, DOC Holliday

Dave Rolley · « **Reply #31 on:** February 14, 2008, 10:43:12 PM »

Mike,

The picture on the magazine cover is Kirk. Last I heard he was living in Grand Junction Colorado.

Dave

Jay · « **Reply #32 on:** February 16, 2008, 06:35:32 PM »

Just curious... What to you expect these kits to go for?$?
Also when do you thing these kits will be on the market? Guys will small budgets and itchy building fingers wants to know.

I can only assume that it will be the same great quality as your 1/2A kits.

Thanks

Jay

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #33 on:** February 16, 2008, 07:46:46 PM »

Well, Jay, we just received the first copy of the plans. As you may be aware of we make the lowest price kits in the market, with the good hardware and good quality wood. It is a little early to set a price yet. The next step is to make changes in the plans, that we feel are important, then it is off to the CAD guy, then the laser cutter. We then get a set of parts to approve or alter as needed to give us a quality kit. Then it is back to the laser cutter to cut 50 of each kit while I draw the plans with the changes on them, order the hardware, wood, print labels and plans. The last step is to send them out to the dealers and advertise them.
If everything goes well we are hoping for July or August....but I would not put any money on that. I wish that I had a Cad man around here so I could have Sig cut the parts. By the way for those planning to make kits we will need to sell between 50 to 75 kits just to break even.
SO NOW YOU KNOW HOW THE BUSINESS IS DONE.
Did I leave out test building and flying? We will have someone doing that while we wait for the Proto Type parts from the laser cutter.
Larry

Paul Smith · « **Reply #34 on:** February 18, 2008, 07:44:57 PM »

I built the S.P.A.D. XIII from a kit I won in Chicago, circa 1985.

Finished it as sport plane in red paint and gold Monokote and a wide-open Veco 35. I don't recall what Sig used for the cabane struts, but for some forgotten reason, I switched to 1/4" dowels.

Then, in the 21st century, I upgraded to a more-scale finish. I cut new tail feahers with true-scale scallops, as well as a throttled 35.

For the kits, considering modern lazer-cuttting, I'd go with the scalloped trailing edges.

Jay · « **Reply #35 on:** February 19, 2008, 09:06:06 AM »

Wow Paul you do good work. How did you do the 3D effect on the fuselage? If I do get one I hope it looks as good as yours.

Jay

Michael Boucher · « **Reply #36 on:** February 19, 2008, 10:16:01 AM »

Hi Paul, Like Jay, I was wondering how you achieved this as well, wonderful!

Bill Little · « **Reply #37 on:** February 19, 2008, 12:04:38 PM »

You print it.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #38 on:** February 19, 2008, 08:23:02 PM »

Quote from: Jay on February 19, 2008, 09:06:06 AM

Wow Paul you do good work. How did you do the 3D effect on the fuselage? If I do get one I hope it looks as good as yours.

Jay

Thanks for the support.

It's what I call "wallpaper scale". I scanned the art work and re-sized it to fit the model.

Keith Polzin · « **Reply #39 on:** February 19, 2008, 09:15:58 PM »

I'll take a Spad & Fokker if ya do em.

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #40 on:** February 19, 2008, 09:21:12 PM »

We will make them. I am making some minor changes in the planes, mostly so that they can be laser cut, then I will mail them to the Cad man tomorrow. It is in the works. This has been slated for production for a little over a year.
Mike,
The info came in today......Thank You.....very nice.
Thank You
Larry

Mike Lauerman · « **Reply #41 on:** February 20, 2008, 01:21:36 PM »

I had a SPAD, 1972. Pals Chris & Sam had Fokkers, they were discounted at our Santa Cruz hobby shop...can't remember, but CHEAP! Thanks, Mike Gretz, for the reprints of the SIG magazine pages!
Congrats to Larry for picking these up! One of the more 'fun' projects I remember doing.

Jay · « **Reply #42 on:** March 21, 2008, 04:23:33 PM »

Just wondering how far you are along with these kits...

Thanks for making these.

Jay

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #43 on:** March 21, 2008, 10:43:06 PM »

The CAD work on the Fokker should be done and the proto-type will be here in about two weeks. If there is not a lot of changes the first 50 will be here in the following 3 to 4 weeks and if I did all of my end of the work it will be sent out to dealers in the next week. The SPAD will take a little longer, maybe 2 weeks.
Short answer about two months.
Larry

Larry Renger · « **Reply #44 on:** March 22, 2008, 03:39:49 PM »

I haven't flown a Spad, but I scored 404 points in Classic at this year's VSC with the D-7. It takes some care to get it through the full pattern, but it will do it. A bit more power and lower altitude would have been a big help. I'll bet it works just fine here at sea level. Mine was built by Antone Kephart, powered by a McCoy 29 and flown on 59'x.012 solid lines. 9x6 topflite prop, 15% fuel. Silkspan covering, minimal finish.

Larry Rice, a few things to consider doing:

Use a built-up/hollow fuselage of about 5/8" thickness (1/2" cut out balsa or structure with 1/16" sheet sides) and lighten up the plywood on the front.

I am not familiar with your wing construction, but the original could be made both lighter and stronger with better structure.

Consider built-up tail surfaces. If you keep the tail end light, you can use a .25 for power and have an overall lighter model.

Oh, by the way, Antone's model captured the "Most Unusual" trophy at VSC. Thanks for the loan, Antone!

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #45 on:** March 22, 2008, 06:33:25 PM »

Larry,
We have asked the laser cutter to make some changes that will make the planes lighter. Only the prototype will tell us what else we will need to do. I do like your suggestions and will keep them in mind when we get to it. There are several things that I must look at when putting a kit together. Cost is a big factor and must be watched all of the time so that monster can not get out of it's box. Making a great kit is always important, but so is ease of building, size of box (to get them into stores) and cost...cost...cost.
Thank you for your valued advice.
Larry

Shawn Kuntz · « **Reply #46 on:** March 23, 2008, 12:38:57 PM »

Larry
I want one of the first D-7's off the assembly line!

Andrew Borgogna · « **Reply #47 on:** March 23, 2008, 01:03:38 PM »

Larry
Ditto for me put my name down for a D-VII when it's available.
Andy Borgogn a

dennis lipsett · « **Reply #48 on:** March 24, 2008, 12:07:55 AM »

I never built either of them. Put me down for one of each.
Dennis

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #49 on:** March 24, 2008, 08:00:07 AM »

I am sorry that I caused such of a stir. The projected time line for these kits is between 2 to 3 months before the first kits come off of the assembly line (I order them 50 sets of laser cut parts at a time). A week after that they will be sent out to Authorized Black Hawk Models Dealers to be sold. The two dealers that I reccomend for having the kits shipped to you are Virginia Hobbysport and Sam's Stuff and Hobbies. If you live near any of our dealers they will be able to assist you.
As soon as the kits are sent out I will post on this site where they are available. I will also post them to our catalog page on our web site: WWW.BLACKHAWKMODELS.COM
Thank you for your interest.
Larry