Saturn & Europa, Bob Hunt designs

[Steve Helmick]

I'm familiar with the Saturn, as we've had quite a few of them in the PNW...Chris Cox, Keith Varley, Pete Peterson, and others have built and flown them.  The original engine was an OPS .40 on pipe.  I know it's around 650 sq. inches, and flies well with a .40 or .46 VF/pipe. Keith's had a Magnum .36, and he said it was plenty of power. Recently got to glance at the Europa article, and noticed that it also had the OPS/pipe, and essentially the same styling.  I know it was a predecessor to the Saturn.  How big is the Europa? What's different about it? Anything else good or bad about it? Steve

[Allen Brickhaus]

In a previous post that I cannot find, Bob said that the Europa came first and then the Saturn.  The Europa is under 600 squares and the Saturn is around 650.  Bob will chime in here soon with the correct info.  He can just copy and paste from the post I cannot find.

Allen Brickhaus

[Bob Hunt]

Hi Steve:

Here's what I wrote in response to Allen's post on the Europa. I'll also add the necessary address to find that post.

Hi Allen:

The Saturn is actually a larger version of the Europa! The Europa came first and was a design exercise with input from my son Robby, Dean Pappas, Bill Werwage and me. Quite litterally we passed the drawing pencil around to each of the aforementioned people and each of us added in our thoughts right on the drawing! Of course when everyone left at the end of the exercise Robby and I did a bit of erasing and redrawing...

I liked the shapes of the Europa so much that I drew up the Saturn with virtually the same side view aesthetics. Almost everyone thinks that the Saturn came first, but now you know the real story!

Bob Hunt

Here's the address for the original thread: http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=18884.0

If you copy and paste that into your browser it should take you to the proper part of the forum.

[Allen Brickhaus]

Thanks Bob,

Allen

[Bob Hunt]

10-4

[Bob Hunt]

One more thing: Steve, the Europa never was fitted with an OPS and a pipe; it was way too small for that power package. It originally had a Webra .32 on a pipe, but we swapped that out for an HP 40 and a pipe. It really likes that combination!

Bob

[Aaron Little]

I have a video of Rob flying the Europa at the 1991 Nationals here:
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=19444.0

Also the Europa was a Genesis 35 wing I think.

Bob you said you used some ideas from the Cobra 7 for the Saturn correct? (I think it was Cobra 7, it was the Mike Ditrich plane if I remember the article.)

Love em both, they are cool looking planes!
Aaron

[Steve Helmick]

Thank you, all.  I reckon a Magnum .36/pipe would do the job in the Europa (PTG grinds his teeth here).  Steve

[peabody]

The Saturn was/is one of my favorites....I remember that it REALLY came alive when Bob put a PA-51 in it....

[Ward Van Duzer]

Yup!


W-O

[Bill Little]

My Geo Juno that I have been flying since 1997 is a Saturn. (yeah, I should finish a new plane for myself......)  I started with a OS .40VF/pipe and it now has a PA 61/pipe.  It has been an awesome plane, and so good that I just have never taken it upon myself to get a new plane ready! LOL!!  But, the time has come.........

I was with Bob at Muncie when the "accident" occurred to the red and white Saturn.  It was a sickening event, and he almost saved it.

I would suggest either plane (Europa or Saturn) to anyone.

Big Bear

[Bob Hunt]

It's hard for me to be objective about my own designs in both aesthetics and flight quality from a spectator or judge's point of view. In the case of the Saturn, however, I am confident in its validity as a competition stunt model as many have flown it and the consensus is that it is a great flying model. Hopefully Ted Fancher and/or Dave Fitzgerald will chime in here with a flight report. They flew the model just moments after the finals at the 1995 Nats in Pasco. In fact, Ted was the newly crowned Nats Champion at that point and so he was well practiced and on top of his game to be sure. Ted was very gracious and generous with his praise about how that ship flew. In fact he made a comment to me after flying it that still makes me grimace and smile at the same time. He said, "How can you lose a contest flying that airplane?" Somehow I managed, but it did underscore the fact that the Saturn was easy to fly well and was in great trim. I had flown it for several years at that point in time and had tweaked it constantly to fly just a bit better each year.

Credit for the Saturn design must be shared with Bill Werwage. I used the airfoils and moment arms that he suggested. I came up with the aesthetics, but even those were heavily influenced by the Cobra 7 that Mike Dietrich had flown at the 1989 FAI Team Selection contest in Mount Comfort, Indiana. I was a judge at that meet and to me the Cobra was the best looking ship there. Not only in aesthetic design, but also in the flying qualities it exhibited. It was not a large ship, but it was large enough to not look out of place amongst the other top designs flying there. I decided to build my own similar design and Billy helped out with the right aerodynamic “numbers.”
There have been several “original” designs that have appeared over the past few years that were/are based on the Saturn. They all appear to fly well and their owners are happy with them. I think that’s pretty neat!

Attached are a few Saturn photos.

Later – Bob Hunt 

[Aaron Little]

How about a video from the 1992 Nats.
Practice flight but, but it gives you an idea of how good it looks in the air!

[Bill Little]

How about a video from the 1992 Nats.
Practice flight but, but it gives you an idea of how good it looks in the air!

Ain't it great when the boss lets you go home early??  

(BTW:  elevators and flaps are connected and drying)

"Dad"

[PJ Rowland]

Funny little story I remember about this plane..

I was watching a video of it flying in China 1994, and the guy filming said " next up is Bob hunt flying saturn OPS power. "

At that time I had not heard of the brand "OPS" and for YEARS always thought he said..

" next up is Bob hunt flying the saturn hope he has power "



 

[Bob Hunt]

Hi Aaron:

That video was of the very first flight on that plane! I had just sprayed the clear on it a few days prior to leaving for the Nats in 1992 and figured that I'd give it a try jut to see what I had to work with down the road. I put the Saturn away after that flight and went back to the Lexicon design that I had been flying since 1991. I had used the Lexicon to make the 1992 FAI team and had it flying pretty well. I ended up in fifth in 1992. The OPS I had in the Lexicon was starting to "go away," but I stuck with it for that meet. It was a mistake...

The Saturn showed great promise on that first flight, but I just didn't have the energy to rub it out and trim it in less than a week. Should have taken that motor to use, however. Oh well...

Later - Bob

[Steve Helmick]

Bob and all...Thank you for the link to the earlier thread. Excellent thread with lots of great pictures. Today, I figured out why I didn't see that...computer was down for a month or so, and then I went to Clovis and Death Valley, etc. Stuff happens. I'll have to look for the Europa article at the Swap Meets.

I gotta say, that "nose skid" is intimidating to me. You'd have to get it done perfectly, or it would be like a wart on a "10", ya know?  Steve 

[Bob Hunt]

Hi Steve:

By "nose skid" I'm guessing that you are referring to the scoop on the top of the nose block...? Yes, that could begin to look like a wart if you are not careful. Hey, if that doesn't "light your fire" just leave it off! It won't affect the performance. I actually made them functional on the Saturn so that they would cool the engine a bit more. Now, with electric I'd use them for sure to blast more cooling air onto the motor.

I could probably find a copy of that issue of FM in which the Europa article was published. If I can't find one, I can copy the one that I have and the photocopies to you. I'll need your address...

Subsequent to the design of that ship we updated the aerodynamics just a bit by extending the tail moment arm an inch (if I remember correctly; may have been 3/4 inch...). I also drew out a built up tail assembly and a Lost-Foam rib layout. I have those updated plans available if you are interested. The new plan also depicts a slightly wider fuselage which is much more practical. In fact the magazine plan showed two fuselage widths. The original was just too narrow to be practical, but it did look cool! A special tank had to be made, however, to fit that narrow space.

I found another B&W shot of the Europa and a few more B&W shots of the Saturn as well. I'll post as many as the forum specs will allow.

Later - Bob Hunt

[Bill Little]

Hi Bob,

Are all the B&W pics of the Saturn just the bronze plane?  or do you have some of the red/white/blue one?

Thanks,
Bill

[RandySmith]

Hi Bob,

Are all the B&W pics of the Saturn just the bronze plane?  or do you have some of the red/white/blue one?

Thanks,
Bill

Bob...plane that is not bronze???  red white blue...  shirley you jest ?   

[Brett Buck]

I came up with the aesthetics, but even those were heavily influenced by the Cobra 7 that Mike Dietrich had flown at the 1989 FAI Team Selection contest in Mount Comfort, Indiana.

  The old bronze dog was really exceptional, and you could tell it from the outside. I think the styling is much nicer than the Cobra, for what it is worth, particularly the fin shape and general fuselage proportions. I wouldn't have guessed that it had been based on that at all.

    Brett

[Brett Buck]

Bob...plane that is not bronze???  red white blue...  shirley you jest ?   

  No, and please stop calling him Shirley ($1 to Leslie Neil...  oops, never mind).

    Brett

[Bob Hunt]

Wow! Thanks, Brett! The "Bronze Dog" Saturn was among my favorites of all the planes that I've designed and built. It ranks, perhaps, right behind the 1978 Genesis 46 Mk III. That was an exceptional ship and I've never yet had another one that had its performance potential. Sure would have liked to have felt that model with a PA 51 and a pipe, or with an electric system. It would have been awesome.

We know what the Saturn would have felt like with an electric system as Buddy Wieder's "Ryan's Eagle" is essentially a Saturn with a turtledeck and slightly different fin and tip shapes. It is a fantastic flying ship.

For Bill Little: Yes, I do have a few photos of the Red, White and Blue Saturn (Hah, there really was one, Randy... ), but I don't have most of them them scanned in yet. I do have a flight shot of the ship that was taken by Dick Byron, and one that was taken at the 1996 Nats during appearance point judging. I'll try to post them here.

For those who might be interested, I've designed a new Saturn that is sized right between the Europa and the original Saturn. About 620 square inches of area. Perfect for an E-Flite Power 25 or an AXI 2826-10 and a 4S battery.

Later - Bob Hunt    

[Allan Perret]

For those who might be interested, I've designed a new Saturn that is sized right between the Europa and the original Saturn. About 620 square inches of area. Perfect for an E-Flite Power 25 or an AXI 2826-10 and a 4S battery.
Later - Bob Hunt    

Is this one specific for electric, and are you selling plans yet ?

[Mike Ferguson]

Is this one specific for electric, and are you selling plans yet ?

What Allen said.   

[Bob Hunt]

Well, it was designed showing an "electric nose," but it would be a simple matter to draw in beam mounts for a glow engine. This wouod be a perfect size for the PA 40 R Ultra Lite Merlin (Cheeze, that engine has more nicknames than Apollo Creed in Rocky IV...)

No, I have not yet finalized the plans, but if I get more of this type of interest I'll throw them on the front burner...

Later - Bob

[Jason Greer]

Add 1 more to the list of interest!

[Rob Smith]

Add me to your list Bob! I already have plans for the Europa and the Saturn.

Rob

[Bill Little]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the pictures of the "other" Saturn.  I remember that one very well!

The Saturn has served me very well, being probably 14 years old now.  Just "changed the clothes on the mannequin" as you often say.  There's a great chance that a straight Saturn could be added to the "Little" Air Force before too long.  It is, and has always been, one of our favorite stunt planes.

Bill 

[RandySmith]

"""Yes, I do have a few photos of the Red, White and Blue Saturn (Hah, there really was one, Randy... ), """

Yep yep yep.... I remember the plane.... When we saw  the red white and blue one, I had thought Billy had followed thru on his threat of stealing and dumping that 55 gallon barrell  of  Bronze dope you have at your shop  :-)    

Randy

[Ted Fancher]

It's hard for me to be objective about my own designs in both aesthetics and flight quality from a spectator or judge's point of view. In the case of the Saturn, however, I am confident in its validity as a competition stunt model as many have flown it and the consensus is that it is a great flying model. Hopefully Ted Fancher and/or Dave Fitzgerald will chime in here with a flight report. They flew the model just moments after the finals at the 1995 Nats in Pasco. In fact, Ted was the newly crowned Nats Champion at that point and so he was well practiced and on top of his game to be sure. Ted was very gracious and generous with his praise about how that ship flew. In fact he made a comment to me after flying it that still makes me grimace and smile at the same time. He said, "How can you lose a contest flying that airplane?" Somehow I managed, but it did underscore the fact that the Saturn was easy to fly well and was in great trim. I had flown it for several years at that point in time and had tweaked it constantly to fly just a bit better each year.

Credit for the Saturn design must be shared with Bill Werwage. I used the airfoils and moment arms that he suggested. I came up with the aesthetics, but even those were heavily influenced by the Cobra 7 that Mike Dietrich had flown at the 1989 FAI Team Selection contest in Mount Comfort, Indiana. I was a judge at that meet and to me the Cobra was the best looking ship there. Not only in aesthetic design, but also in the flying qualities it exhibited. It was not a large ship, but it was large enough to not look out of place amongst the other top designs flying there. I decided to build my own similar design and Billy helped out with the right aerodynamic “numbers.”
There have been several “original” designs that have appeared over the past few years that were/are based on the Saturn. They all appear to fly well and their owners are happy with them. I think that’s pretty neat!

Attached are a few Saturn photos.

Later – Bob Hunt 

Yeah, Bob.  It was almost as good as the Great Expectations!  ;-D

All kidding aside.  I’ve repeatedly referred to my flight on Bob’s 1995 Saturn as one of the two best and easiest flying OPPs (Other Peoples’ Planes) I’ve ever flown.  The other being either of Brett Buck’s Infinities.  It was wonderfully balanced in response and the powertrain was perfectly matched to the needs of the airplane.  IOW, it was really really easy to fly well and I felt very fortunate to have come out on top an hour or so prior to flying it.

Bob does a lot of things really, really well and that airplane was one of them.

Ted Fancher

[Mark Scarborough]

Add me to your list Bob! I already have plans for the Europa and the Saturn.

Rob

Rob, and you give ME crap about having to many projects lined up? REALLY?
 

[Chris McMillin]

How about a video from the 1992 Nats.
Practice flight but, but it gives you an idea of how good it looks in the air!

What was all of that noise in the background!!!
Chris...

[Brett Buck]

All kidding aside.  I’ve repeatedly referred to my flight on Bob’s 1995 Saturn as one of the two best and easiest flying OPPs (Other Peoples’ Planes) I’ve ever flown.  The other being either of Brett Buck’s Infinities.  It was wonderfully balanced in response and the powertrain was perfectly matched to the needs of the airplane.

 As a slight diversion, Bob and I exchanged flights on our airplanes at the 2007 Team Trials, and we both remarked on the fact that they felt almost identical. Pretty surprising given that virtually everything about them was different in almost every respect (electric VS Jett 61, thin-wing with light loading versus very thick wing with moderate loading).

   I think you flew my 1999 airplane (that I wrecked at the 2005 NATs). The 2006 version is just slightly better but very similar in overall feel.  I don't think you have flown that one, but you are of course welcome if I ever go flying again. 

    Brett

[Ted Fancher]

As a slight diversion, Bob and I exchanged flights on our airplanes at the 2007 Team Trials, and we both remarked on the fact that they felt almost identical. Pretty surprising given that virtually everything about them was different in almost every respect (electric VS Jett 61, thin-wing with light loading versus very thick wing with moderate loading).

   I think you flew my 1999 airplane (that I wrecked at the 2005 NATs). The 2006 version is just slightly better but very similar in overall feel.  I don't think you have flown that one, but you are of course welcome if I ever go flying again. 

    Brett

Hmmm,  I could have sworn I'd flown both of them.  Oh well, it wouldn't be the first time my memory has gone AWOL.  You going to be home for the Holidays?

Ted

[John Sunderland]

Dad built a Europa. It was quite adequately powered with Aero Tigre 36, all up at 46 oz. less fuel. Could easily have been lighter. Unfortunately dads' "eye" for the finer details needs Sr. refinement but ...despite some misalignment I did get it pretty well trimmed. It was tail heavy with the Aero Tigre as well. I was a little bummed...because I was going to fly the crap out of it locally. Pops does not get in the circle anymore.

Anyhow, Dad says he wants to build another. I loaned out our lost foam jig and need to get it back! Really like the wing and want to use it elsewhere.

And speaking of smaller electric ships....I WILL have a 630 size Chevelle ready for next season. Life has not let me participate as often the last 10 years, but I truly want to change that next year. A ride on the E Genesis at the 07 Nats has had me chomping at the bit a little to long.

Bobs Bronzed Babe was my first up close with a piped ship. I remember him pulling the prop through with a fuel load and the pinch at the top was audibly tense... followed by a swift one flip of the CF two blade had me shakin. Nothing now, but at the time....bwaaaa
pucker factor! Cleveland gets some ugly wind unknown to most...and of course Bob...well you know...I was imPressed! It was a great airplane.

[Brett Buck]

Hmmm,  I could have sworn I'd flown both of them.  Oh well, it wouldn't be the first time my memory has gone AWOL.  You going to be home for the Holidays?

   As long as home is defined as Lockheed Building 158, Second floor, near column 2j9. For example, tomorrow, I am on day shift, then will come in at 1:15 AM, Saturday, stay until 6 am, come back at 5:40 pm and stay till 1:30 AM. So Day shift, followed by Graves, and then Swings the same day.

    My mind may be going AWOL instead.

    Brett

[PJ Rowland]

but you are of course welcome if I ever go flying again.

Further explanation required 

[proparc]

For Bill Little: Yes, I do have a few photos of the Red, White and Blue Saturn Later - Bob Hunt    

Mr. Hunt. What exactly was up with that paint job. It looks as if you were seriously channeling some Bill Werwage Geo energy!!

[Bob Hunt]

Ya' think, Milt...?

In 1994 Robby built his Geo-Star and I was building the second Saturn. Robby wanted to paint his ship to match Bill's latest Geo variant and I suggested we do a sort of "team" thing. We asked Billy if that was okay with him first of course. Attached is a photo of the four ships; two belong to Billy and are Geo-XL designs, one is Robby's Geo-Star and the odd looking one of this group is my Second Saturn.

Also attached is another photo of the second Saturn. It was on its way to becoming a good ship when a leadout broke. That was the end of using soild leadouts for me...

My thanks go out to all who have expressed their thoughts and experiences with the Saturn. I guess I'll have to build another one now...

Later - Bob Hunt   

[James Mills]

Well, it was designed showing an "electric nose," but it would be a simple matter to draw in beam mounts for a glow engine. This wouod be a perfect size for the PA 40 R Ultra Lite Merlin (Cheeze, that engine has more nicknames than Apollo Creed in Rocky IV...)

No, I have not yet finalized the plans, but if I get more of this type of interest I'll throw them on the front burner...

Later - Bob

Bob,

Put me down for a set of plans (I'm sure I can squeeze one more set in the closet without the walls blowing out ).

James

[RogerGreene]

Hey Bob,

I thought I had seen the inverted photo of the Saturn before, it is the third plane from the left on the PAMPA home page!!!

Put me down for a set for a gas engine mount.

Thanks,
Roger

[proparc]

Lets not forget Steve Moon and the great success he had campaigning his OS Max 52 Surpass powered Saturn,(four strokes can take care of serious business!!).

For the younger guys out there,(like Bill Little-oops) A proven plane like Bob's Saturn can get you into the game much sooner than some of the more entry level designs out there. It can allow you to focus on the basics such as: straight building, good engine setup, proper trim etc.

World class planes in the class of a Saturn, tend to be somewhat more difficult to build and more complex to set up. Bob's Saturn is somewhat unique in that, with a Foam wing, it is actually a very simple, and straight forward plane for build and trim. For want of a reasonable expenditiure of time and effort, you've got yourself a World Class ship,(literally) right out of the shop.

[Bob Hunt]

Hi Milt:

Thanks for those kind words. Yes, the Saturn is a relatively easy to build model and it is also easy to trim, providing it is built light, straight and rigid.

I found a few more snapshots of the Saturn. The first two were taken as I was starting the first Saturn for a flight at the 1992 World Championships in Czechoslovakia. Paul Walker (who won that WCs) is holding and Billy Werwage is assisting.

The next one is another Dick Byron flight shot of the second - very short lived - Saturn, taken at the 1996 Nats, just hours before a leadout snapped in a practice flight.

The last one is of my son, Robby, launching the first Saturn for an official flight in Pasco, Washington, in 1995.

Later - Bob  

[James Mills]

Bob,

Who is the guy holding the green flag in the second picture?

James

[Bob Hunt]

Hi James

That's the official timekeeper at the Worlds. He accepts the signal from the pilot when he gets ready to start the engine, starts the watch and waves the flag. Yeah, I know, it's a bit over the top, but that's how they do it over there...

Found another shot... This one is of Robby (at left), Vic Macaluso (at right) and me kneeling with the first Saturn just after having made the 1994 FAI Team at Mt. Comfort, Indiana.

Bob

[Bill Little]

Hi Bob,

One thing good did come from Aaron, and I, being at the scene when the R/W/B Saturn met its demise.  Aaron was watching you doing your "ballet" while the model was doing its loops from the broken LO.  Not long after, he had a LO break and did the same thing!  The plane survived with only a messed up LG.  It was something I had never seen done before.

BTW: I would have gladly taken the remains of the Saturn (and I fully understand your reasons for destroying the remains), but it made me build my own so all's good! LOL!!

Bill

[Bob Hunt]

Yeah, it's a one in twenty shot to run at the plane and then quickly run back to "adjust" the size of the loops a plane will make after a leadout breaks and get it to "pancake" perfectly. I almost did it that day, but just missed. Fortunately I don't get to practice that skill much...

Bob Hunt

[Aaron Little]

That was the Fancy Pants that I had that did that.
The cable had sawn through the bellcrank if I remember correctly.

Not a bad flying plane, it was pretty quick with that 3" bellcrank.  I flew it at one of the Oldie Goldies at Myrtle Beach and would have had a good score had I not run out of fuel in the clover.

[Matt Colan]

Hi James

That's the official timekeeper at the Worlds. He accepts the signal from the pilot when he gets ready to start the engine, starts the watch and waves the flag. Yeah, I know, it's a bit over the top, but that's how they do it over there...

Found another shot... This one is of Robby (at left), Vic Macaluso (at right) and me kneeling with the first Saturn just after having made the 1994 FAI Team at Mt. Comfort, Indiana.

Bob

I haven't seen Vic in a few years now, too bad he's into RC jets now.

Now Bob, I'd assume that running at the plane would lengthen the loop, and then run back would tighten it up, right?