ringmaster landing gear for Brodak s ringmaster event

[bob whitney]

I have obtained a ringmaster which is said to be built to some Dee Rice plans ,it has aluminum gear ..was told that it showed such on the plans .will I have a problem flying this ship at brodaks in the ringmaster event

[Will Davis]

Plane will be ok as long as it is a S1 and not a modern rendition.. Must be OTS legal version, not S1A, as far as landing dear, below is clip from OTS rules .

Most important , is to have fun.... .. And no bom/ appearance points in OTS or ringmaster event .

[Jim Mynes]

will I have a problem flying this ship at brodaks in the ringmaster event

I've seen you fly, Bob. You'll have problems, but the plane should be legal.

[James Holford]

I've seen you fly, Bob. You'll have problems, but the plane should be legal.

I don't know wether to laugh or feel bad lol!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

[Dan McEntee]

  The location of the wheel axle is what is important, not what it is attached to. As long as the wheel location is per the original, sheet metal gear is allowed, as far as I know.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[john e. holliday]

You know I have had the S-1, S-1A, the Estes Stunting Ringmaster and the RSM kit.   The RSM kit was/is the lightest and with my flying ability I have seen no difference in the flying of any of them.   In fact S-1A is the heaviest of them and the RSM kit comes with aluminum gear.

[Dennis Adamisin]

Just curious, my remembrance of the S-1 kit & plan is that the axle location was not shown at all, but then again I built my original Ringers with either no gear or a single wheel.  Is there any GOOD information on the original S-1 wheel location?

[john e. holliday]

All I remember is the gear wire went into the wing slot first.  Then was wired in place on the ones I put the landing gear on.  Flying over a grass hayfield and a hand launch didn't need gear.

[Dennis Adamisin]

Hi Doc
As I recall the picture on the yellow label kit box show the Ringer without a landing gear, as did the little 2-view drawing Sterling used to put on the assembly drawing.  As you said, the Assembly drawing (really cannot call it the plans) the wire was inserted through the wing opening and was locked in place by the wing and swept forward an indeterminate amount.  Most folks leaned the gear forward a ways to help handle deep grass.

The bottom line is that there is no "correct" wheel position for a Ringmaster, but I would probably grumble at any that did not have the complete wheel visible when looking straight down at the top of the airplane...

[Dan McEntee]

        The Ringmaster gear was preformed and installed in the fuse before the wing like Doc said. I think the kit called for a dowel through the fuse and the wire was rubber banded to that dowel, fixing the wheel location. I would have to get an S-1 kit out to check and will do that tonight.
    Type at you later,
      Dan McEntee

[Dennis Adamisin]

        The Ringmaster gear was preformed and installed in the fuse before the wing like Doc said. I think the kit called for a dowel through the fuse and the wire was rubber banded to that dowel, fixing the wheel location. I would have to get an S-1 kit out to check and will do that tonight.
    Type at you later,
      Dan McEntee

I'm pretty sure the dowel & rubber band trick was first seen on the Goldberg Shoestring/Buster/Cosmic Wind.  I think the Ringmaster showed wire wrapping.

My current Ringmaster is the ONLY one I ever built with two wheels and a tailwheel, I think I am going to change it to a single wheel - just cuz...

[Will Davis]

I bet the location of ringmaster landing gear was everywhere prior to December of 1952.. Mine built in the 70's had single gear, gear forward, gear back, no gear, trike gear,

The same would probably be true back when they first came out. I

Bring your ringmaster, have fun flying the most populalar sterling kit .

[Stuntflyn]

Hey Bob,

I think it depends on exactly which Brodak event you are talking about. You can fly a Ringmaster in Old Time Stunt where of course everyone's prior comments would be valid to some degree in my opinion. The  Brodak contest flyer does not specifically address these items, but how specific can you get on a single flyer?

I flew Old Time Stunt last year at the Nats with my S1 Ringmaster, designed by Joe Kania in 1951 and cut out from from the plans drawn by Gabrielle Marci' in 2010 and modified by P.D. King in 2011. Old Time Stunt at last years Nats was flown on the L-Pad pavement because rain had caused the grass circles to be unusable. I have traditional wire gear and wheel placement as shown on the plans - i.e. - way the hell forward.  Lol . . . I know I should have scored at least 7 landings on one of my attempts on pavement, but the judges just didn't see it that way. My landings looked like a buxom lassie with a 40 D cup bouncing up and down on a trampoline. Doiing . . . doiing . . . doiing . . . doiing.

Joe Gilbert also flew a Ringmaster with wheel placement much further back (straight down). Landing gear exit was the same as mine. Joe made some really nice landings. All seems kind of silly to me since back in "Old Times", I would have just bent the Ringmaster gear back if I had to fly off pavement. Pretty sure most everyone knew about wheel placement back then. Since Joe's wheel placement was good enough for last years U.S. Nationals, I hardly see where the wheels end up matters, it is just important to have the landing gear exit the fuselage in the same location as the original.

"Landing gear material may be changed. The landing gear length need not exactly duplicate the original, providing the model's angle of attack (on the ground) closely approximates the original design. Landing gear must exit in
the same location as the original design. It shall not be relocated to provide for perceived advantages in ground handling."

You cannot relocate the exit point, as I read this rule, "It shall not be relocated" is definitely referring to the exit point of the landing gear, it has nothing to do with where the axles or wheels end up.

 As far as the Ringmaster S1, Firecat and SuperFirecat event, this is advertised as a precision aerobatics event, flying the same pattern as AMA 322. Since there are no age classes in this event and since the only stipulation is that you fly one of the aforementioned models, this is nothing but Open Stunt limited to certain models in my humble opinion. I don't think it makes a rat's ass where the wheels end up and I know landing gear material may be changed. Wheel position is not even addressed in the Old Time Stunt rules.

The event will be flown on a grass circle, so I would put the wheel position where you want as long as the models angle of attack on the ground closely approximates the original. Wheel size will affect angle of attack on the ground just as much as axle placement.

Jim Smith

[Stuntflyn]

Here is a not for distribution copy of the S1 plans Wayne and I used for our Ringmasters. It shows both landing gear exit and wheel placement for this version.



Jim

[Jim Carter]

Did the S1 have a CF push rod?

R.O.T.F.L.M.B.O.!  !  REALLY   1951   RO.T.F.L.M.B.O.!  ! 

[Will Davis]

Hey Bob,

I think it depends on exactly which Brodak event you are talking about. You can fly a Ringmaster in Old Time Stunt where of course everyone's prior comments would be valid to some degree in my opinion. The  Brodak contest flyer does not specifically address these items, but how specific can you get on a single flyer?

I flew Old Time Stunt last year at the Nats with my S1 Ringmaster, designed by Joe Kania in 1951 and cut out from from the plans drawn by Gabrielle Marci' in 2010 and modified by P.D. King in 2011. Old Time Stunt at last years Nats was flown on the L-Pad pavement because rain had caused the grass circles to be unusable. I have traditional wire gear and wheel placement as shown on the plans - i.e. - way the hell forward.  Lol . . . I know I should have scored at least 7 landings on one of my attempts on pavement, but the judges just didn't see it that way. My landings looked like a buxom lassie with a 40 D cup bouncing up and down on a trampoline. Doiing . . . doiing . . . doiing . . . doiing.

Joe Gilbert also flew a Ringmaster with wheel placement much further back (straight down). Landing gear exit was the same as mine. Joe made some really nice landings. All seems kind of silly to me since back in "Old Times", I would have just bent the Ringmaster gear back if I had to fly off pavement. Pretty sure most everyone knew about wheel placement back then. Since Joe's wheel placement was good enough for last years U.S. Nationals, I hardly see where the wheels end up matters, it is just important to have the landing gear exit the fuselage in the same location as the original.

"Landing gear material may be changed. The landing gear length need not exactly duplicate the original, providing the model's angle of attack (on the ground) closely approximates the original design. Landing gear must exit in
the same location as the original design. It shall not be relocated to provide for perceived advantages in ground handling."

You cannot relocate the exit point, as I read this rule, "It shall not be relocated" is definitely referring to the exit point of the landing gear, it has nothing to do with where the axles or wheels end up.

 As far as the Ringmaster S1, Firecat and SuperFirecat event, this is advertised as a precision aerobatics event, flying the same pattern as AMA 322. Since there are no age classes in this event and since the only stipulation is that you fly one of the aforementioned models, this is nothing but Open Stunt limited to certain models in my humble opinion. I don't think it makes a rat's ass where the wheels end up and I know landing gear material may be changed. Wheel position is not even addressed in the Old Time Stunt rules.

The event will be flown on a grass circle, so I would put the wheel position where you want as long as the models angle of attack on the ground closely approximates the original. Wheel size will affect angle of attack on the ground just as much as axle placement.

Jim Smith

Jim,

My thinking exactly on the  gear location, Ringmaster / Firecat  will be flown on the expert circle , grass with concrete takeoff, very well manicured grass, but still grass .

If you want to Have fun, fly more Ringmasters and Firecats,

[Stuntflyn]

Did the S1 have a CF push rod?

Hey Motorman,

The one I made my first flights on from a Sterling kit back in the early '60's had a music wire pushrod. 1/8" I think. I don't remember any dowel and rubber band landing gear, but it is certainly possible they had them on the earlier kits.

My current Ringmaster S1 definitely does have a carbon pushrod. It also has adjustable leadouts, a tip weight box and uses various weights of contest balsa throughout. None of these were available on the original Sterling kit to my knowledge. My current Ringmaster weighs in at a svelte 28 ounces fully fueled with electrons. That weight may have been unachievable with any original Sterling kit I ever saw. I could have used the leading edge from my original Sterling kit as a deadly weapon back in the day. Heavy. It probably weighed 10 ounces.

"Allowances" are made in Old Time Stunt to facilitate more reliable and better flying models than the originals. Who wants to sit around in the hot sun watching contestants take attempt after attempt trying to get that 1960's motor started? Since I was a beginner back then, I started out with a red head McCoy .19 and then moved up to the McCoy .35. Those were nice engines at first, but after about 50 flights, they were a lot harder to start and after a summer of flying, they puked their guts out. Kaput.

There are a few traditionalists out there who will strictly stick to OEM features. The challenge is much greater, but I am sure it is rewarding. Saw Jim Lee make some beautiful engine runs with his ignition motor. I think Jim's motor may have been fully original. A lot of ignition motors you see in this event aren't period ignition motors - they swap out the old unreliable ignition for a nice solid state version. Even then they can be dicey at best.

Old Time Stunt is a very fun event, but there always seem to be a lot of hand wringing concerning what is legal and what is not. It can be paradoxical for someone to complain about the shape of your rudder or your wheel location while in their Old Time ship they run a P.A. .40 or a Fox .35 with stuffer backplates, Hemi head and aluminum sleeve.

I just try to make sure my model airframe is as original as possible (airfoil shape, fuselage and wing plan forms) and I don't sweat the little details so much. Old Time Stunt is supposed to be a more relaxed event to promote FUN. I get enough stress competing in Open Stunt where you are compared against the best flyers in the world and some of the best builders and finishers as well. That is not to lessen the skill and modeling abilities of Old Time Stunt participants, it is just different for me when I get to the handle for an official flight in Open Stunt. Perhaps if I only flew Old Time Stunt it would be much the same as Open Stunt.

[Jim Carter]

I'm guessing you didn't get my sarcasm . I'm pretty sure if it looks like a Ringmaster from 15' you're ok.

MM

Actually, I thought the question was rather unexpected but totally kool!