Ringmaster Imperial, worth building or not?

[frank mccune]

      What are your thoughts regarding this airplane? I have been flying one for awhile and really think it flys very well.  How well does it compare with the more modern designs?

      My set up on the Imperial is a HP .40. and 60’ lines.

      Comments?

      Tia,

       Frank McCune

       

[Dennis Toth]

Frank,
I think if it is built light with the correct control ratio is would do OK. With many of the early flapped designs they had short tail moments (as they just used the old moments, just added the movable flaps). To get good response you may need to set the flap/elevator ratio to 1 to 2 rather then todays 1 to 1. 

Best,   DennisT

[John Rist]

Interesting.  Where does the Ringmaster Imperial fit in the history of Ringmasters. I am familiar with the Super Ringmaster but not the Imperial R.  Looking at the drawings of one it is not typical S1 construction. Does it qualify for OTS?   

[Dave_Trible]

The one Doc Holliday built flies impressively.  He traced off an old kit onto light wood so it came out nice (then gave me the kit to do the same-sometime).  What is obvious to me is that to use anything but a Fox .35 with a 3 or 3 1/2 ounce tank you’d have to take out a bulkhead to get enough tank capacity to fly the modern pattern.  I’m pretty sure it came about when there was just one lap flown between maneuvers.

Dave

[john e. holliday]

Sorry Dave I did give an original Sterling Ringmaster Imperial kit to you, but the one I fly is built from Walt Umlamd kit.  Power is LA 40 and I use a Larry Renger differential handle on 65 foot lines.   A search should find pictures in this forum.   

[Dennis Toth]

If you need a bit more fuel you could redesign the motor mounts to drop down 1/8 - 3/16" and hollow out the top block (or mold one from 1/16" sheet) to allow the deeper tank, also would use a rectangular tank with an internal baffle across the outside corner would give additional fuel. You likely need around 4 1/2 oz. with a 46.

Best,   DennisT

[Dan McEntee]

      What are your thoughts regarding this airplane? I have been flying one for awhile and really think it flys very well.  How well does it compare with the more modern designs?

      My set up on the Imperial is a HP .40. and 60’ lines.

      Comments?

      Tia,

       Frank McCune

     

      Well, judging from the responses so far, you and Doc are the resident experts on the Imperial!  So what do you think? If it trips your trigger and you want to build it, it doesn't matter one whit of difference what anyone else thinks, especially if they haven't built or flown one. If you got it and the spirit moves you, what are you waiting for!??
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[dennis lipsett]

      Well, judging from the responses so far, you and Doc are the resident experts on the Imperial!  So what do you think? If it trips your trigger and you want to build it, it doesn't matter one whit of difference what anyone else thinks, especially if they haven't built or flown one. If you got it and the spirit moves you, what are you waiting for!??
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

Dan, Many are not aware that Pat King does a 60 sized Ringmaster Imperial. I know as I have the kit. It is formitable to build and I'm not too sure that it is a contest model. Of course if it gets built and flown and is competent someone just might have some funwith it. My back is so shot I doubt that it will ever be me. Any takers. Plans are available
 and you can also get a kit. It is pricy but the kit is really well done.

[Dan Berry]

Mark Troutman built one from an actual kit. 
He was les than impressed.

[Scott Richlen]

Years ago AMA had its own little magazine/newsletter.  I think it was called "Model Aviation".  Back around 1963 the cover of the magazine was of a young fellow and his modified Imperial Ringmaster.  Among other things he had inverted the motor.  It was really a good-looking airplane!  If you could find that picture you could build a version of it and since it had been built before 1966 would qualify for Classic.

[MikeyPratt]

I’ve always liked it Imperial but never built one.  However I had the chance to fly two of them one built from a kit it was stock and heavy, power was a McCoy Red Head .40, the other one was built from scratch and powered by a OS 40 FP, that one flew fairly well, but I’m my opinion, still needed work to the control system.  I could do an ok pattern with it but needed more work to make the squares look square.  If I was build one, I would change a few things like control ratio 2 to 1 and maybe lengthen the tail moment at least an inch (maybe more).  I also think Scott had a good idea and an inverted engine share wouldn’t hurt the Imperial at all (take out some ugly and put in some COOL!).

Later,
Mikey Pratt

[wwwarbird]

Years ago AMA had its own little magazine/newsletter.  I think it was called "Model Aviation".

 

[Dan McEntee]

Years ago AMA had its own little magazine/newsletter.  I think it was called "Model Aviation".  Back around 1963 the cover of the magazine was of a young fellow and his modified Imperial Ringmaster.  Among other things he had inverted the motor.  It was really a good-looking airplane!  If you could find that picture you could build a version of it and since it had been built before 1966 would qualify for Classic.

     I have quite a few of the early versions of Model Aviation, including most of 1962, all of 1963, 64 and 65. I just went through them all and I did not find a cover with any one with a Ringmaster Imperial. The cut off date for Classic is December 1969. The Ringmaster Imperial kit number was S-18 and came well after the Super  Ringmaster which was S-6. I would have to dig into model magazines to [pin down the release date for closely, might do that later tonight. I don't think it was released before 1970, though.

  Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

[Scott Richlen]

   I don't think it was released before 1970, though. 

Way before 1970!  One of my flying buddies had one back in 64 or 65.

I'll see if I can find that cover and post it.

[john e. holliday]

I’ve always liked it Imperial but never built one.  However I had the chance to fly two of them one built from a kit it was stock and heavy, power was a McCoy Red Head .40, the other one was built from scratch and powered by a OS 40 FP, that one flew fairly well, but I’m my opinion, still needed work to the control system.  I could do an ok pattern with it but needed more work to make the squares look square.  If I was build one, I would change a few things like control ratio 2 to 1 and maybe lengthen the tail moment at least an inch (maybe more).  I also think Scott had a good idea and an inverted engine share wouldn’t hurt the Imperial at all (take out some ugly and put in some COOL!).

Later,
Mikey Pratt

All these changes and it would not be a Ringmaster Imperial.

[builditright]

Hi John. It is Classic era legal, but not OTS.  It is a big model and the only part that looks typical of the S1 in this version is the tail section, ie; rudder and stab/elevator.  Walter Umland kitted it about 4 years ago. I had one, the kit, but sold it.  Not sure but check with Jim Howell,I think I sold it to him.

Thanks Ty,
Here is my kit prototype that I built from the sample kit. I had a lot of fun doing this one mainly because of the not so good childhood memories of this plane and I want to see if I could do better as an adult, which I did.  One of the really fun part of doing this one was Gene Martine, John Miller and I took turns applying the paint. Listening to experienced painters was a bit much    but man did it show..

[Dan McEntee]

Way before 1970!  One of my flying buddies had one back in 64 or 65.

I'll see if I can find that cover and post it.

     If you can zero in on a possible date, I can look it up also. The earliest mention of have found so far of the Ringmaster Imperial is in the SIG catalog, #22R, and my copy of that catalog has a price list dated 1971. It's time for a break and a nap now, I'll look some more later. I have a memory of seeing a full page add for the Imperial, just not sure where to look. I spot checked Flying Models in 1970 and didn't find any mention of it. I thought there was a website for Sterling kit collectors but can't find that either.

    Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

   PS; It's not in Tom Morris' Classic Designs book either.

[Serge_Krauss]

This is from the November 1959 issue of American Modeler. I have checked up through early 1957 and found no mention of the Imperial in Sterling or AHC ads. Unfortunately, while I remember seeing this ad several times when I was a kid, I haven't found any of my issues dating from then to this issue. That goes for M.A.N. too. Although that leaves open dates from mid-'57 through late '59, the ad here says "new." So it probably appeared in 1959.

One of our NCCL club members built one a few years ago, probably with good wood, but it wasn't seen at the field much. I wouldn't expect it to be a world beater with its thin flapped wing and short trail arm, but it's probably a great nostalgia piece.

[Dan McEntee]

This is from the November 1959 issue of American Modeler. I have checked up through early 1957 and found no mention of the Imperial in Sterling or AHC ads. Unfortunately, while I remember seeing this ad several times when I was a kid, I haven't found any of my issues dating from then to this issue. That goes for M.A.N. too. Although that leaves open dates from mid-'57 through late '59, the ad here says "new." So it probably appeared in 1959.

One of our NCCL club members built one a few years ago, probably with good wood, but it wasn't seen at the field much. I wouldn't expect it to be a world beater with its thin flapped wing and short trail arm, but it's probably a great nostalgia piece.

   Well I'll be damned! I would have never thought it went back that far? I just looked up that issue and there it is!! I had even looked in an older SIG catalog and it wasn't in that edition. In all these years of going to VSC and local classic events I'm surprised no one ever entered one. Every airplane is a favorite to some one!! I like the look of it, and I found an original kit on local Craig's List several years ago and it's stashed here somewhere. I dod like the look of it!!

    Hey Scott! Looks like you were correct. It is Classic legal.  If you find that magazine cover I would still like to look at that, though. I just went through all of my old Model Aviation again and no soap. I did find a November 1959 issue that had Burt Rutan's Fairchild F-7 twin C/L scale model on the cover, though!
   
     Type at you later,
       Dan McEntee

[MikeyPratt]

All these changes and it would not be a Ringmaster Imperial.
[/quote]

How are you Doc!,
Your right, then it wouldn’t be a Ringmaster Imperial.  Maybe that’s why I never built one, too many things to change just to make a good flying model.  Then when you done it’s still kind of iffy if it will fly a good pattern, if at all.  If you really built a light one with plenty of power it should do better, hopefully!

Later,
Mikey

[john e. holliday]

 I'm doing good as can be expected being grounded.  Haven't been in the shop hardly and still looking for the Papoose kit.

[Scott Richlen]

Hey Dan:

I've been looking through my old magazines, but haven't found it yet.  I know it is around here someplace!  I recall it was one of the small format Model Aviations, not the 8 1/2 x 11 sized ones.  Maybe 61 or 62?

[wwwarbird]

 A crappy thin airfoil combined with a pointy leading edge, like every Ringmaster, you've got to coax them softly through the turns to avoid stalling the wing. Built straight, light, and with the right power though they can suprise you. And don't forget, Joe Gilbert has whipped up on a LOT of people with his Ringmaster.
 Whatever the case, it's a really cool series of designs with a ton of history and an unmistakable top/bottom outline that makes me smile every time I see one in the sky. If there was such a thing as a C/L dictionary, the S-1 Ringmaster would be on the cover. Build any of them and go have fun. 

[Dan McEntee]

Hey Dan:

I've been looking through my old magazines, but haven't found it yet.  I know it is around here someplace!  I recall it was one of the small format Model Aviations, not the 8 1/2 x 11 sized ones.  Maybe 61 or 62?

    Well, we know it was after 1959!!  I just checked my collection again, and the small format magazine stopped with the May, 1962 issue. So, from January, 1960 to the May, 1962 issue, I am only missing two issues, which are March and August 1961 issues.  I have looked at all the rest  twice and it's not on any of the others, so that is your target to search for!

    You know, there is some pretty interesting stuff in those issues for as little paper as they used!

    Have fun!
    Dan McEntee

[John A Miller]

Dan, The 1959 date hits me as correct. I bought and built one after seeing the ad. That was in my Junior year in High School, 1960 that I finished my Imperial. I lost it within the first 4 laps when my down line separated. I don't know how good it could fly, but it did 4 or 5 really small loops before it hit the ground and destroyed itself.

John Miller

[dale gleason]

I recall Bob Brookins had a real nice Ringmaster Imperial. Being a car painter by trade (and a darn good one at that!), I wasn't surprised at the fantastic finish it had. It would change color as you walked around it and changed the sun angle...red became green, became blue, then black, all metallic hues...iridescent.  It may have shone at the VSC.

I think...

dg

[Bob Hunt]

Years ago AMA had its own little magazine/newsletter.  I think it was called "Model Aviation".  Back around 1963 the cover of the magazine was of a young fellow and his modified Imperial Ringmaster.  Among other things he had inverted the motor.  It was really a good-looking airplane!  If you could find that picture you could build a version of it and since it had been built before 1966 would qualify for Classic.

Yes, that was when Model Aviation was in its infancy and published in a small format. The kids name that was on the cover with the Ringmaster Imperial was (I'm pretty darn sure...) Steve Bittner from Glen Burnie, MD. Steve told me about that plane a long while back. Should you build one? Hey, if you like the looks of it and want one, why not!

Bob Hunt

[Dan McEntee]

Yes, that was when Model Aviation was in its infancy and published in a small format. The kids name that was on the cover with the Ringmaster Imperial was (I'm pretty darn sure...) Steve Bittner from Glen Burnie, MD. Steve told me about that plane a long while back. Should you build one? Hey, if you like the looks of it and want one, why not!

Bob Hunt

    Mr. Hunt Sir!!!

    Would you happen to know what issue that was for sure? I just want to see the photo and the model. Scott Richlen was sure it was the small format and the only two I am missing from January 1060 to the last small issue in May1962 is the March and August issues of 1961. It's just getting to be a thrill of the hunt thing now, no pun intended!!

   Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

[Bob Hunt]

Hi Dan:

I don't have a clue as to the issue. That photo of Steve with the Ringmaster Imperial was also published years later in someone's column (not mine...), but I don't remember whose and when. Some photos just stick in your mind, and that one did for me. I do remember that the plane looked much better (in my opinion) with the inverted engine.

I haven't heard from or about Steve in several years.

Later - Bob   

[EddyR]

 I love what that add says” it tops them all in contest performance “
 I guess you cane write anything you want in a add.
Ed

[Scott Richlen]

  I haven't heard from or about Steve in several years. 

I think he came to an Eastern Shore meet a few years ago when they were at their old field.  I think he was flying a Hi Johnson Stuka on the practice circle but didn't enter the contest.

[EricV]

I love what that add says” it tops them all in contest performance “
 I guess you can write anything you want in an add.
Ed

Yeah Eddy, but then they shot themselves in the foot with the next line:
"If you've built and flown any of our other Ringmasters, you know what you can expect in flying performance." 


I confess I found the design had a certain nostalgic appeal when I came back to stunt the second time around, just based on wing area and looking for obscure stuff that might be competitive, but for me it just had too much going against it compared to other classic designs.

Scratch built light, and taking some liberties with the LE profile, someone could probably get it competitive enough for classic with the right power. (when I say right power, I mean a low pitch high rpm, pipe-like run where the power is always "on".) My personal guess would be it would still struggle with high density altitudes on those hot July/August contest days and that there are a lot better choices out there if their goal is an easy build that will be easy to fly and lead to winning hard fought contests against other experts... if their goal is fun and nostalgia or they like a challenge, then this might just be their bag. 

EricV

[Dennis Toth]

I think if built light and straight with 1:2 flap to elevator ratio the ship could be pretty good with say an LA 46  in the high rpm/low pitch run mode. These early flap ships had tail moments that are short and can't control a full 1:1 ratio they just mush, at 1:2 they turn.

Corrected flap/elevator ratio.

Best,    DennisT

[Ken Culbertson]

I think if built light and straight with 2:1 flap to elevator ratio the ship could be pretty good with say an LA 46  in the high rpm/low pitch run mode. These early flap ships had tail moments that are short and can't control a full 1:1 ratio they just mush, at 2:1 they turn.

Best,    DennisT

Did you mean 1:2?  I have never tried a 2:1 on anything.   I have tried a 4:3 to smooth out rounds but it cut into my corners.

Ken

[Brent Williams]

Should one consider the building the Ringmaster Imperial?
It depends on one's desire and tolerance for a poor performing and utterly unattractive airplane. 
If those are the main criteria for selection and accompanying expenditures of effort and funds....it's the perfect ship!

[john e. holliday]

You know some of these poor performing aircraft did pretty well in in local and reginal contests.  The Ringmaster Imperial to me was the ultimat Ringmaster.  At the time I was involved in racing and carrier.  Yes most plane looh better with an inverted engine.  I think that is why VECO put that option on their kits.   

[Dan Berry]

Should one consider the building the Ringmaster Imperial?
It depends on one's desire and tolerance for a poor performing and utterly unattractive airplane. 
If those are the main criteria for selection and accompanying expenditures of effort and funds....it's the perfect ship!

Brutal truth

[Dennis Toth]

Ken,
Correct, 1:2 Flap to elevator. My bad.

I will correct the prior post so we have consistent response, thanks Ken for the catch.

Best,    DennisT

[Phil Spillman]

I've been flying model airplanes now for just about 70 years and during that time I've encountered perhaps 2 Ringmaster Imperials! Those who flew them didn't give them very high marks! The term lead sled comes to mind! One of my late friends took a Super Ringmaster kit and enlarged it by 20% so that Super Ringmaster is a 120% model. I now own that plane and it flies like a dream! Mine is powered by an OS LA .46 which just purrs around quite nicely! In my opinion you'd be better off trying to duplicate the 120% Super Ring than bothering with an Imperial!

Phil Spillman

[Brent Williams]

We need the Fancherized S1 Ringmaster 500 with Brodak 40 power.

Bob Reeves already did it. 
Bob's TwistMaster is a Fancherized Twister disguised as a Ringmaster.

Plans attached.

[Dane Martin]

Joey Mathison as a green one. Bright flamboyant thing. It's just fun to fly. It's a great sport, Sunday flyer. So if I already had a kit, I'd build it with a fox 35 and a 3 or 3.5oz tank and just do lazy 8's and vertical 8's and not expect a lot. Just something to have fun with.

[john e. holliday]

This is one of the things wrong with this forum and others.  We push competition instead of having fun.  Was fun in the early days to see different designs show up that were basically fun type planes that do stunts/maneuvers.  Then I go into competition and forgot the fun aspect myself.  Later years I tried the fun aspect again and had people flying until I hit the contest circuit again.  Some areas still do both and doing great like the Philly Flyers.

[Ken Culbertson]

Then I go into competition and forgot the fun aspect myself.

Why is that?  Competition, at least to me, is the most fun you can have with your clothes on.  If I could only put in 2 flights a year they would be officials.  I fully understand the work it takes to get on the Walker, or even to be top dog in your club,  but if that is your only satisfaction from this sport then something is wrong (however, don't quit, we need the entry fees).  John, I am not criticizing, I am really curious why you don't find competition fun and why it can not co-exist peacefully with sport flying.

Ken

[john e. holliday]

It is a long story but when you are not at the circle or people there to keep it going they quit flying.  Most years had me gone every week end and work kept me from flying during the week.  I have been through at least six pilots even though I tried to make planes any body that knew up from down could fly.

[Ken Culbertson]

....any body that knew up from down could fly.

Now there is the problem  "Up" and "Down" are not politically correct anymore.  You need 16 variants of each.


Ken

[Mike Griffin]

Why is that?  Competition, at least to me, is the most fun you can have with your clothes on.  If I could only put in 2 flights a year they would be officials.  I fully understand the work it takes to get on the Walker, or even to be top dog in your club,  but if that is your only satisfaction from this sport then something is wrong (however, don't quit, we need the entry fees).  John, I am not criticizing, I am really curious why you don't find competition fun and why it can not co-exist peacefully with sport flying.

Ken

Ken I understand exactly what Doc is saying.  Let me give you a personal example.

I love to fish, always have and always will.  Back in the late 80's I had a 14' Jon boat with a  25hp outboard motor.  I loved that boat.  Caught lots of Bass, Crappie and Bream out of that boat. 

Then around 1990, somebody said "Mike, you should buy a bass boat and start tournament fishing."  So I bought a 18' Ranger 370V Bass Boat with a 150 HP Johnson on the back with a 6" jackplate so I could get a better hole shot and started fishing any tournament I could find, mostly Red Man draw tournaments.  I also invested over $5000.00 in the best boron and carbon rods and flipping sticks money could buy.  It was nothing for me to lay out $150.00 for a baitcasting reel.   Man I was competitive, when it came time for me to have the front of the boat, I would point the boat so I had a better angle than the guy in the back and I would hide my lure when I tied it on so he could not see what I was using.  After all, there was a few hundred bucks at stake.  I did this for about 5 years, and then.....one day.....I was sitting on Lake Monroe in Bloomington, Indiana and it was about 100 degrees.  I was dying from the heat
and I started thinking.....this is not fun any more, it is WORK and I am not enjoying this anymore.

I went home that night and called a guy who was in our bass club and asked him if he wanted to buy my boat..he had asked me several times if I ever sold it, he wanted it.  Two days later he showed up with a check, hooked the trailer behind his truck and my Ranger, with the hand laid fiberglass hull, drove out of my driveway and out of my life.

I did not fish for many years after that, I was so burned out.  I kept all of my rods and reels and lures just in case I ever wanted to take fishing up again. 

I was in my early forties back in those days.  I will be 74 next month and am just now taking up fishing again, from the bank, with all my fancy tackle from back in those days which is now terribly outdated but still serves the purpose.

 I am once again back to enjoying the sport of fishing and having fun.  I understand exactly what John is saying.

If you remember, I produced a lot of kits over the past two decades and enjoyed doing everyone of them.  I do not and have not flown competitively in a long long time.  I was never that good anyway,  I just enjoyed going out to the field on Sunday afternoons and doing some hangar flying with the guys.  I was always a much better builder than flyer and actually enjoyed it a heck of a lot more.  It was therapy.

I have given most of my built models away and sold most of my stuff so my wife will not have to deal with it when I leave the planet. 

I need to stop this rambling but I do understand where Doc is coming from. 

Mike

[Ken Culbertson]

Mike, John, I am going to stand corrected.  I reread your posts and what I was reacting to is not what you were saying.   
Sorry - Ken

[Mike Griffin]

Absolutely no need for an apology Ken.   

Mike

[pat king]

I offer a Ringmaster Imperial 60. 63" span  853 square inches of wing area. Laser cut with good wood, a good thick wing with a nicely rounded leading edge. For anyone who wants an airplane that looks like your Dads Imperial but flies much better.

Pat

[John Kelly]

  Hi,