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Author Topic: RINGMASTER S1 OTS  (Read 2563 times)

Offline pat king

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RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« on: August 14, 2023, 02:17:34 PM »
I am now offering a laser cut kit of the RINGMASTER S1 an OTS legal airplane.

Thanks, Pat
Pat King
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Online Steve Berry

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2023, 02:21:06 PM »
Nice. Cost? And is there an electric offering of it?

Steve

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Offline realSteveSmith

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2023, 05:08:29 PM »
Nice. Cost? And is there an electric offering of it?

Steve

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More details here....

https://stunthanger.com/smf/pdk-llc-laser-cut-kits/ringmaster-s1-ots/?topicseen
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Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2023, 05:33:16 PM »
I've built several S-1 Ringmasters.  All from plans.  Because all my planes must finish at or less than a weight I consider "flyable".

Let's hope that Ringmaster kit reproductions are weight conscious.
90 years, but still going (mostly)
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Offline Jim Carter

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2023, 02:53:55 PM »
I've built several S-1 Ringmasters.  All from plans.  Because all my planes must finish at or less than a weight I consider "flyable".

Let's hope that Ringmaster kit reproductions are weight conscious.
Hi Floyd!  Now I know this is probably going to get a lot of guys "spun up" but just curious ... why weight conscious?  What is it about weight that is so worthy of consideration?  I have one that I built from bask in the day (probably 2011) that I have literally flown, crashed and repaired so many times (actually 1029 as of the last Flyathon).  Actually, I have dedicated to to just flying for the Flyathon at this point.  Heavy?  Yep!  Somewhat fuel soaked?  Yep!Globs of epoxy and superglue?  Yep!  I even power it with and old OS Max .40 r/c with muffler!! and that Ol' Blue will still do every maneuver I know how to do ... but I sure have fun.  So, is weight really all that important when it comes to having fun and ringing the Richter Scale?  ;D LL~ LL~

Jim

Offline pat king

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2023, 09:39:41 AM »
If I can ever get the motor suppliers to give me real dimensional information, I will design the electric motor version.

Most electric motor vendors do not even have any dimensioned drawings of the motors and adaptors they sell because they don't make them, they just sell them.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2023, 11:02:25 AM »
Hi Floyd!  Now I know this is probably going to get a lot of guys "spun up" but just curious ... why weight conscious?  What is it about weight that is so worthy of consideration?

  Weight matters (in both directions) and it is probably generally true that up to a point, reducing the mass of your Ringmaster helps. That point is when it starts falling apart - which is a very common occurrence when people are trying to build "really light" Ringmasters. The structural design is so poor that it is very easy to lighten it to the point the wings fold or come off completely.

   This is most common when someone combines their "world's lightest Ringmaster"  effort with other items that actually help - better engines and most important of all, *reducing the control throw*. The usual +-45 degree or more "flipper" elevator will try to turn the airplane at a radius far, far below anything that even the lightest Ringmaster could hope to achieve. So the classic kit Ringmaster/Fox 35 flight is a bunch of level flight interrupted by violent stalls. That's why it has such a bad reputation.

    Trying to solve that problem by just making it lighter is nearly hopeless, you cannot possibly make it light enough to support a 1 or 2 foot corner radius no matter what engine you use - and still be strong enough to stay together in your new super-duper 50G corner.

   There are plenty of kit-wood Ringmasters that fly pretty well as long as you slow the controls enough to keep it from stalling, and you are using a good engine (15FP, Veco 19, etc) in the 30 ounce range or higher - much better than upper teens weight (lowest I have seen is something like 16 ounces) Ringmasters with fast controls and questionable engines. If nothing else even with a good engine and proper controls, the 18-ouncers are far too light on the lines to handle the unexpected upsets.

      The Almighty Ounce is more an article of religious faith than it is practical engineering. Build your Ringmaster in the range of maybe 28-32 ounces with a good engine, set the controls up so you can't stall it with normal wrist movement (which might wind up looking absurdly slow, like +-1/2" - 3/4" at the trailing edge), run it at under 5 seconds/lap on 58-60 foot lines, and it will fly very nicely.

    Brett

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2023, 11:45:14 AM »
If I can ever get the motor suppliers to give me real dimensional information, I will design the electric motor version.

Most electric motor vendors do not even have any dimensioned drawings of the motors and adaptors they sell because they don't make them, they just sell them.

Pat, might I suggest you get a hold of Dennis Adimisim or one of the other electric gurus to maybe supply you with the motor sizes as far as mounting. D>K
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Offline Mike Griffin

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2023, 02:36:07 PM »
Hi Floyd!  Now I know this is probably going to get a lot of guys "spun up" but just curious ... why weight conscious?  What is it about weight that is so worthy of consideration?  I have one that I built from bask in the day (probably 2011) that I have literally flown, crashed and repaired so many times (actually 1029 as of the last Flyathon).  Actually, I have dedicated to to just flying for the Flyathon at this point.  Heavy?  Yep!  Somewhat fuel soaked?  Yep!Globs of epoxy and superglue?  Yep!  I even power it with and old OS Max .40 r/c with muffler!! and that Ol' Blue will still do every maneuver I know how to do ... but I sure have fun.  So, is weight really all that important when it comes to having fun and ringing the Richter Scale?  ;D LL~ LL~

Jim

Jim, I would recommend you contact Dee Rice if you want to learn about weight in regards to a Ringmaster.

Mike

Offline Mike Griffin

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2023, 02:37:10 PM »
  Weight matters (in both directions) and it is probably generally true that up to a point, reducing the mass of your Ringmaster helps. That point is when it starts falling apart - which is a very common occurrence when people are trying to build "really light" Ringmasters. The structural design is so poor that it is very easy to lighten it to the point the wings fold or come off completely.

   This is most common when someone combines their "world's lightest Ringmaster"  effort with other items that actually help - better engines and most important of all, *reducing the control throw*. The usual +-45 degree or more "flipper" elevator will try to turn the airplane at a radius far, far below anything that even the lightest Ringmaster could hope to achieve. So the classic kit Ringmaster/Fox 35 flight is a bunch of level flight interrupted by violent stalls. That's why it has such a bad reputation.

    Trying to solve that problem by just making it lighter is nearly hopeless, you cannot possibly make it light enough to support a 1 or 2 foot corner radius no matter what engine you use - and still be strong enough to stay together in your new super-duper 50G corner.

   There are plenty of kit-wood Ringmasters that fly pretty well as long as you slow the controls enough to keep it from stalling, and you are using a good engine (15FP, Veco 19, etc) in the 30 ounce range or higher - much better than upper teens weight (lowest I have seen is something like 16 ounces) Ringmasters with fast controls and questionable engines. If nothing else even with a good engine and proper controls, the 18-ouncers are far too light on the lines to handle the unexpected upsets.

      The Almighty Ounce is more an article of religious faith than it is practical engineering. Build your Ringmaster in the range of maybe 28-32 ounces with a good engine, set the controls up so you can't stall it with normal wrist movement (which might wind up looking absurdly slow, like +-1/2" - 3/4" at the trailing edge), run it at under 5 seconds/lap on 58-60 foot lines, and it will fly very nicely.

    Brett

This brought back memories of Dee Rice in pursuit of an 18 ounce Ringmaster. 

Mike

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2023, 02:47:38 PM »
  Weight matters (in both directions) and it is probably generally true that up to a point, reducing the mass of your Ringmaster helps. That point is when it starts falling apart - which is a very common occurrence when people are trying to build "really light" Ringmasters. The structural design is so poor that it is very easy to lighten it to the point the wings fold or come off completely.

   This is most common when someone combines their "world's lightest Ringmaster"  effort with other items that actually help - better engines and most important of all, *reducing the control throw*. The usual +-45 degree or more "flipper" elevator will try to turn the airplane at a radius far, far below anything that even the lightest Ringmaster could hope to achieve. So the classic kit Ringmaster/Fox 35 flight is a bunch of level flight interrupted by violent stalls. That's why it has such a bad reputation.

    Trying to solve that problem by just making it lighter is nearly hopeless, you cannot possibly make it light enough to support a 1 or 2 foot corner radius no matter what engine you use - and still be strong enough to stay together in your new super-duper 50G corner.

   There are plenty of kit-wood Ringmasters that fly pretty well as long as you slow the controls enough to keep it from stalling, and you are using a good engine (15FP, Veco 19, etc) in the 30 ounce range or higher - much better than upper teens weight (lowest I have seen is something like 16 ounces) Ringmasters with fast controls and questionable engines. If nothing else even with a good engine and proper controls, the 18-ouncers are far too light on the lines to handle the unexpected upsets.

      The Almighty Ounce is more an article of religious faith than it is practical engineering. Build your Ringmaster in the range of maybe 28-32 ounces with a good engine, set the controls up so you can't stall it with normal wrist movement (which might wind up looking absurdly slow, like +-1/2" - 3/4" at the trailing edge), run it at under 5 seconds/lap on 58-60 foot lines, and it will fly very nicely.

    Brett

Thanks for your patience and your response.  It's much appreciated.

Jim

Online Brett Buck

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2023, 07:29:54 PM »
This brought back memories of Dee Rice in pursuit of an 18 ounce Ringmaster. 

Mike

   Dee certainly knows where to draw the line on "lightening" his airplane so it stays together. Unfortunately, based on what I have seen, a lot of people don't know how to do it safely.

  And, make no mistake, making it lighter would certainly make the airplane turn tighter - if you solved all the other issues that are even more critical preventing it.

  BTW, the lightest Ringmaster I have heard of from plausible sources was around 15 ounces. Note the use of past tense.

   Brett

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2023, 08:47:35 AM »
    I usually encourage new comers to not get carried away with the "lightness" thing thing either. No need to purposely build a flying tank, but also no need to go to the other extreme either. I have rescued several Ringmasters over the years. I have one that I have been flying a lot lately. I goty it several years ago from an add in Craig's List. twenty bucks for the airplane, several Fox engines, and a box of other odds and ends. I usually start out by lengthening the elevator horn to about 1 1/8" to get that magic 20 degree deflection and to slow the throw down.. It's damn near long enough to be the tail skid!. Line spacing then comes down to the 3" range, maybe less, and adjust accordingly to get even inside and outside turns. Fox.35 stunt for power, and finish was dope on the fuselage and monokote. This one may have had the original monokote on it and weight was around 30 ounces.. I have flown it this way for a long time. I have loaned it out a lot, and used it for balloon bust and such. The weekend before my knee rebuild, I went for one more flying session and took this Ringmaster. After a few flights a surprise storm came up with some serious hail. I got everything, including me, into the car quickly but just tossed a folded over sheet of plastic over the airplane. It was pretty old and brittle, and the hail went right through the plastic before it went right through the wings!! No structural damage, though. After surgery I started to rehab the knee and decided to rehab the Ringmaster at the same time. After I pulled the remains of the covering off, I could tell for sure it was a kit built model, with 2" bell crank that Sterling called out for in  the instructions if I remember correctly, and had nice, tight Ambroid orange glue joints that were double glued. It had aboput an ounce and a half of tip weight glued in that came out. I cleaned up the stab/fuselage joint and touched up the paint there. New monokote covering, a new tip weight tube, and I replaced the solid rubber wheel that sometimes came with the kit in the 60's that weighed over 2 ounces with some new light wheels. This moved the balance point back a bit. It didn't have a canopy when I got it so I added one in the rehab and added a few stickers and such to jazz it up. Weight is till in the 30 ounce range and after about 4 trim flights it's ready to serve me well some more. I would  put it up against any "light" Ringmaster in a OTS contest. Fox .35 stunt for power, 10-5 Top Flite prop to get the RPM up, lines are a bit short of 60 feet, lap times 5 to 5.2. Engine is completely stock of unknown origin, it just was one that came with the deal, no muffler. At the RPM it runs at I have no sign of a burp anywhere and it has never missed a beat.
  I have built several Ringmasters from scratch over teh years. I just copy the Sterling kit, but the biggest change is I don't join the leading edge in the middle. The wing span is 42 inches I think, so you need more that one piece of LE stock. Instead of joining it ion the middle, I splice it out towards the tip on the outboard wing. This makes the center section a lot more solid which helps in lawn dart one point landings. If you feel the need to lighten up the leading edge, do the hollowing out beyond the center section sheeting. I usually use 1/8" wire for landing gear also which makes for better landings. The stuff in the kit is too small and springy. I keep the finish minimal and they usually come out in the 25 to 30 ounce range. Three in bell cranks make getting control throws correct a bit easier. When you stand back and look at the parts of a Ringmaster, there really isn't a whole lot there. I agree with Brett in that if you start trying to push that lightness edge of the weight envelope the airplane can become quite fragile. It's original purpose was for training and learning, and survivability in that respect keeps you flying. My models don't glide very well, but that's OK, it's not a glider! But a really light Ringmaster probably doesn't glide very well either dead stick. The design needs to fly fairly fast and I don't think I have ever seen anyone fly one at 5.6 lap times!! I have three Ringmasters ready to fly including a Brodak ARF which I think has alternative construction, but even that one weighs 28 or 29 ounces. Controls are set up the way I usually do and it has a slightly longer control horn that stock also.  I truly believe that the average Joe Bellcrank is much better served to have a little beef in the design to get as much service out of it as possible. There is not much to gain from having the lightest pile of crash debris at the flying field!!
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2023, 07:10:13 PM »
The old DOC built a Ringmaster back when I was going to a McCoy 35 Red Head.  It got me my first trophies a couple of years later in a club beginner meet.   i always loved the look of a Ringmaster and still do.  it is a plane that if set up right can take a raw beginner to flying solo on up to doing pattern maneuvers.  i think my first Ringmaster kit cost me $3.95.   The Firecat was $4.95.  A lot of money for a preteen back then.  Another thing was the kit plans were a lesson on building, finish and flying. D>K
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Offline Joe Gilbert

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2023, 08:50:32 PM »
22 oz has worked well for me for lots of years. I think 25 oz is getting to top side of flying well.

Joe Gilbert
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Offline pat king

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2023, 04:46:35 PM »
The spar and the ribs are contest balsa. The ribs are lightened fairly well. I could take more weight out of the kit, but it would just put cost in. That wing is a lot stronger than the original S1 wing. For high level competition the builder can lighten the airplane as they build it. 

Pat
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Offline MikeyPratt

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2023, 09:36:37 PM »
Hi Floyd!  Now I know this is probably going to get a lot of guys "spun up" but just curious ... why weight conscious?  What is it about weight that is so worthy of consideration?  I have one that I built from bask in the day (probably 2011) that I have literally flown, crashed and repaired so many times (actually 1029 as of the last Flyathon).  Actually, I have dedicated to to just flying for the Flyathon at this point.  Heavy?  Yep!  Somewhat fuel soaked?  Yep!Globs of epoxy and superglue?  Yep!  I even power it with and old OS Max .40 r/c with muffler!! and that Ol' Blue will still do every maneuver I know how to do ... but I sure have fun.  So, is weight really all that important when it comes to having fun and ringing the Richter Scale?  ;D LL~ LL~

Jim

Hi Jim,
Just a note, a sub twenty ounce (26 RTF really) RM is a hoot to fly, snappy and smooth, I think I can get it down to 22 with a LA .15, but we will see I’m trying that on the next one for run. 

Later,
Mike Pratt

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2023, 10:06:44 PM »
"   Trying to solve that problem by just making it lighter is nearly hopeless,  "



 VD~      S?P

Dosnt look bad , actually .

You could sell twice as many wings !

« Last Edit: September 01, 2023, 02:15:39 AM by Air Ministry . »

Offline peabody

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2023, 05:40:06 AM »
I am pleased to see that Pat's has a "polywog" wing.

Online John Carrodus

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2023, 02:59:07 PM »
 With the Ringmaster-athon looming, this topic took my eye. A few years ago I built myself a Ringmaster Profile version of the Imperial Ringmaster. It flies very well for a Ringmaster and I was asked by a friend to build him one for a 4 stroke 30.
Picture below. It is retro clear over raw balsa and wing is covered by light brown - paintable monocoat. Longer tail moment and beefed up spar with cowl cheek. It flies very well as tested by one of NZs top stunters. I have built three of this variation now with pleasing  flying characteristics.

Offline Richard Fleming

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2023, 10:10:03 AM »
nice looking profile Imperial John!
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Online Russell Graves

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2023, 06:23:27 PM »
When someone says 25 ounce Ringmaster, is that the weight of the plane only, or does that weight include the motor and prop and everything ready to fly but no fuel in the tank, or something else?

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2023, 06:48:29 PM »
When someone says 25 ounce Ringmaster, is that the weight of the plane only, or does that weight include the motor and prop and everything ready to fly but no fuel in the tank, or something else?

      Yes, that's with guts, feathers and everything except fuel if it's a internal combustion powered example. I don't know if you can get an electric one that light with batteries. For pull test, electric has to have weight with battery on board, I/C complete with tank but no fuel.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2023, 08:43:56 PM »
When someone says 25 ounce Ringmaster, is that the weight of the plane only, or does that weight include the motor and prop and everything ready to fly but no fuel in the tank, or something else?

   All up with no fuel, basically, what you would get at the model processing weigh-in. That's not a terribly difficult weight to hit and many have been built a lot lighter. But again, do it unwisely and you *absolutely will* fold the wing.

    Fortunately, with a good engine and the proper control setup, you don't need it to be feather-light for decent performance.

     Brett

Offline John Cralley

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2023, 05:29:38 PM »
Got to LOVE this thread!

I have a favor to ask of everyone that reads this post:
Copy and send this to all your friends that fly Control Line!
Be part of the World's largest Control Line Fun-Fly!!! We will all be flying Ringmaster control line model airplanes during the same weekend and adding our flights to the grant total from all over the World! Represent your Nation, State and Local area by participating! There will be thousands of Ringmaster flights but 1 flight or 100+ flights .... they all count as a testimonial to the joy of flying Model Airplanes and to the promotion of the wonderful HOBBY of Model Aviation!!
Here are the Rules:

     
John Cralley
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2023, 04:07:54 AM »
Our club had a competiton Ringmaster that was crashed and patched many times. Often won Old Time. Used a chicken bone for a while to wedge the tank in perfect orientation to a Fox 35. A magic marker was used to ink wins and almost win finishes. After three or four season, no room left to keep score. Dan Banjock flies built Ringmasters retrieved from swaps. Never built one. One of these wonders, certainly not super lite, flew point and turn, uncanny how it followed the handle. Fox 35 power should be mandatory in Old Time Stunt flying a Ringer. Wait. Alas. Tradition is not sacred as it should be. Dan's last Ringer has a four stroke something or other for power.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2023, 07:58:15 PM »
Dan's last Ringer has a four stroke something or other for power.

  I have seen several of them with OS 20 and 26 4-strokes and that is a pretty good combination.

    Brett

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2023, 03:07:20 AM »
Kinda an eye opening moment to see the four stroke pull the Ringer. Perhaps the seemingly constant speed, steady power at all orientations, climbing, diving, turning, works well with these simply constructed, legit old time birds. Especially so when porky.

Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: RINGMASTER S1 OTS
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2023, 05:00:47 PM »
Hello
Seen a couple of four stroke powered S1's in our local club including a Saito 30 which worked well.

Might have a go making a 600 or so square inch gob for a OS58 or Enya 63 or perhaps a Fox 59 for some 'old' engine fun, my son Otto is keen to build another too.
We have a fleet of 7 so far most with Enya 45's.

Regards Gerald


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