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Author Topic: Reno air race incident  (Read 3477 times)


Offline decamara

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Re: Reno air race incident
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2012, 08:39:50 AM »
Please edit as a "past" incident!


Whew
Doc Saldivar

steven yampolsky

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Re: Reno air race incident
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2012, 02:58:05 PM »
http://www.aopa.org/training/articles/2012/120827reno-crash-traced-to-failed-screws-untested-mods.html?WT.mc_id=120831epilot&WT.mc_sect=gan&cmp=ePlt:RdMr

Win at all cost can have a human cost.

I learned the value of a trim tab during my training. The instructor wound the trim tab all the way back and I tried to fly level. Now, 150hp Cherokee in level flight does about 100kt on a good day and even then, it is VERY hard to keep things level without the trim tab. I can only imagine for high performance machines flying at 300kt making 5G turns, importance of properly operating trim is essential.

Offline Bob Whitely

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Re: Reno air race incident
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2012, 03:36:34 PM »
Playing to win at all cost is exactly how you win!  The risks are inherent
in any form of racing and once in awhile things do happen. None of us like
it and try to do everything we can to prevent it but accidents do happen.
We move on. RJ

Offline Douglas Ames

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Re: Reno air race incident
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2012, 03:37:28 PM »
Win at all cost can have a human cost.

I learned the value of a trim tab during my training. The instructor wound the trim tab all the way back and I tried to fly level. Now, 150hp Cherokee in level flight does about 100kt on a good day and even then, it is VERY hard to keep things level without the trim tab. I can only imagine for high performance machines flying at 300kt making 5G turns, importance of properly operating trim is essential.

The problem is these OLD Fighters are operating beyond the trim capabilities of the airframe. The Horsepower has exeeded the airframe's 1940's technology. If the prop could be lightened or redesigned, say -  Carbon/ Kevlar or Titanium blades and a cockpit adjustable stabilizer added to properly trim it out, maybe it would be safer at those speeds?
Modifying 70 yr. old parts has reached it's zenith I think. Just an educated guess.
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Offline Dan Bregar

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Re: Reno air race incident
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2012, 05:03:52 PM »
That very airplane raced in the 1946 & 1947 Cleveland National Air Races maybe even in 1948. Old Dog it was for sure.  :)
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Offline billbyles

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Re: Reno air race incident
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2012, 08:04:53 PM »
The problem is these OLD Fighters are operating beyond the trim capabilities of the airframe. The Horsepower has exeeded the airframe's 1940's technology. If the prop could be lightened or redesigned, say -  Carbon/ Kevlar or Titanium blades and a cockpit adjustable stabilizer added to properly trim it out, maybe it would be safer at those speeds?
Modifying 70 yr. old parts has reached it's zenith I think. Just an educated guess.


"The problem is these OLD Fighters are operating beyond the trim capabilities of the airframe."

Actually they are not.  Leeward's airplane had the trim tabs considerably altered including the trim tab control system.  Instead of a trim tab on each elevator (as was noted in the NTSB report) Leeward elected to go with a trim tab on the left elevator only, with the right hand tab poorly fixed in place.  Further, they used attaching hardware for the tabs that was old & defective.  Two elevator trim tabs are essential for a Mustang going more than 300 mph, and Leeward's was going approximately 440 kts.  Also, as noted in the NTSB report, Leeward's airplane had not been tested at race power & speed prior to the race in which the accident occurred.

The fastest classes are not using an old airplane that was simply taken out of 1945 storage, given a fresh paint job and a new engine, and sent out to race.  They are, as noted, highly modified and completely rebuilt.  Strega P-51 is the fastest airplane on the course for the past few years and the pilot, Stevo Hinton, as he has told us at Chino, seems to think that it flies pretty well.  Granted it is not an airplane that you would want to go sport flying around in because, as Stevo says - it doesn't become really nice to fly until the speed gets over 400 mph where it grooves beautifully and trim pressures are well handled by the (two) trim tabs.  This has to do with modifying the incidence of the wing & stabilizer from stock, among other things.
Bill Byles
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Offline billbyles

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Re: Reno air race incident
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2012, 08:24:58 PM »
Win at all cost can have a human cost.

I learned the value of a trim tab during my training. The instructor wound the trim tab all the way back and I tried to fly level. Now, 150hp Cherokee in level flight does about 100kt on a good day and even then, it is VERY hard to keep things level without the trim tab. I can only imagine for high performance machines flying at 300kt making 5G turns, importance of properly operating trim is essential.

A little over 5,000 flight hours ago I learned to fly in Cherokee 140s and I agree that the stabilator pressure as felt at the yoke gets pretty uncomfortable when you crank the trim all the way back, but it is very doable.

Very few of the pilots in the unlimited races pull more than 3 1/2 g's around the pylons - the induced drag penalty is too great if that level is exceeded.  Also, Leeward's airplane, Strega, and others are going more like 440 kts. & even at that they don't pull more than 3 1/2 g's or so.  I fully agree that properly operating trim is essential.  For those who have not flown a P-51, at speed (over about 300 mph) the airplane has very stiff controls.  The rudder feels like it set in cement, the ailerons require quite a bit of pressure for roll, and the pitch gets pretty firm.

As Leeward's accident showed, without two operating elevator trim tabs the Mustang becomes unmanageable in pitch at race speeds.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 08:18:12 PM by billbyles »
Bill Byles
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Reno air race incident
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2012, 09:02:13 PM »
   It had to be a similar failure to the one that happened to Bob Hanna in Voodoo. After he lucked out and survived, if I have a Mustang of ANY sort or vintage I would have upgraded everything in the trim tabs and controls. A friend of mine that owns a local motorcycle shop, has another customer that has been coming in for years, and we found out this past year that he was on the crew for the Ghost back in the Cleveland days. He was the one that came up with the P-47 water injection from some surplus parts that the government gave to the A&P school that he was an instructor at. Took them a couple of years to get it squared away with the help from some technicians with Skelly and it became the first P-51 with water injection. I think they ever finished second in 1949 at Cleveland, but won several races in Florida with the airplane. The guy, Chuck Garrett, saved all of his credentials, passes, badges tickets and stuff from back then and has it all in a album. Two brother farmers from southern Indiana bought the P-51 for $3600 bucks , if I remember correctly, and when they were finished with it, they sold it for $10,000 and put the money into a Goodyear racer. Chuck has the whole story typed up in the album and I'll have to see if I can get a copy. Still a shame about the Ghost , though. Would have been neat to see it dicing with Strega down the Valley of Speed.
  Type at you later,

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Offline Garf

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Re: Reno air race incident
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2012, 09:46:34 PM »
Playing to win at all cost is exactly how you win!  The risks are inherent
in any form of racing and once in awhile things do happen. None of us like
it and try to do everything we can to prevent it but accidents do happen.
We move on. RJ
Those who live move on.

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Reno air race incident
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2012, 10:33:33 PM »
Please edit as a "past" incident!


Whew

 Yes, Robert here and all others can do all aviation enthusiasts a favor and be VERY careful about starting potential negative rumors about the Reno event. That goes for here on the forums, or anywhere else.

 After Jimmy's terrible accident last year, it's almost a miracle the event is even happening this year. It took significant effort by quite a few people during this past year to keep Reno alive. I thank every one of them.
 
 Jimmy's crash was a very bad deal no doubt, but simply an example of what can happen in almost any sort motorized of racing event. I mean no disrespect to anyone affected by the events of 2011, but people need to understand and accept that this can happen. If you are too worried about something happening, stay home. Do that though, and you'll be missing something great.
 
 The risks are known by essentially all in attendance at these types of events, competitors and spectators alike. Those same known risks are one of the reasons some people attend, it's exciting, much more so than sitting at home eating oatmeal.  

 Currently, there is talk in some circles that if there is any type of crash this year, killing someone or not, that it may mark the end of Reno. I seriously hope that nothing happens that way, but either way, the event should live on.

 Myself, I'm anxiously counting the days. I'm planning on being there Wednesday thru Monday this year. See ya there! H^^
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline Dan Bregar

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Re: Reno air race incident
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2012, 04:21:26 PM »
I should be there Sat. & Sun. for sure, maybe even Friday if I can work it out.  :)
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steven yampolsky

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Re: Reno air race incident
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2012, 09:52:24 PM »
Playing to win at all cost is exactly how you win! 

The team changed the incidence of the stab and did not re-test the elevators and trim tabs for flutter.
The team disabled one of the trim tabs effectively removing the only backup pilot has in case one of the trim tabs breaks off.
The bolts on the only working trim tab were rusted. What's worse, the bolts have cracked a long time ago. NTSB investigators found rust was in the old cracks.

This was not a calculated risk that did not pan out. This was negligence. What's worse, it almost caused the cancellation of the only air races in the US.

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Reno air race incident
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2012, 01:09:23 AM »
What Byles and Steven said, and more.

I have found that even within the racing community of fans, most people either do not read the factual report of the 2011 Reno Air Race accident, or do not understand what they read.
It's not that complex, but it does take an understanding of the terminology, the way airplanes are actually operated and difference, for instance, between a test flight to see if there is an oil leak at the flight school, and having a Lockheed test pilot fly your racer to high IAS and perform a series of flutter tests on the airframe.

The P-51D has a redline of 505 mph indicated airspeed. A Learjet is 380. In race flight, a P-51 indicates about 450. It is not over the redline.

Someone mentioned modern props; The composite propellers designed for turbo props do not have the strength to take the pulses a piston engine produces. It's been tried, they shatter. The only one that has worked is the Constellation/P-3 hybrid prop used on Rare Bear during the nineties. It is very heavy, solid aluminum, and produces so much gyroscopic precession it wears out the airframe. It is not used anymore for pylon racing and is said to be most useful for straightaway speeds in the 540 mph range, good for another 3km record attempt.

Old airplanes; This previously mentioned Bearcat airframe was fully de-mated and inspected by x-ray in 1996 and 2007. About 100 hours of operation between those two dates. When it was reassembled it was done with all new hardware. When I worked with the crew in the mid 80's the aileron bearings were new when it flew to the race, and replaced when it returned to base. About 10 hours of operation in between. The pilot was a Naval aviator, been to NATC test pilot school and was a cross service instructor pilot in Air Force T-38 Talons. Then he built his own flying Bearcat from a wreck.
Many of today's racers are very old airframes, they're made of aluminum and steel and those materials are very well known and it's well know how to test for wear or corrosion. Most racing Mustangs are built up from parts, Stiletto, Strega and Dago Red were wrecks rebuilt from new or serviceable parts. They were built to race at that point. Voodoo and Sumpthin' Else were stock flyers modified over the years to racing form, and this was a path fraught with failure. Stock phenolic material elevator trim tabs were to blame for the failure of the trim system in the case of Voodoo in 1998, however the flutter was excited by mis-rigged flaps.  These lessons come to some through hard experience, on the other hand some teams choose to document the lessons of others and fly an airplane with all of the known components of the most failsafe performance installed up front.

Then there is flight test; Jimmy Leeward's airplane was never flown by anyone with experience in flight test. It was only flown by him. It was never subject to any flutter test flights in it's history since it's wings were clipped to 28 feet by Dave Zueschel in 1983. During that modifcation it was sold from the Wiley Sanders Trucking Company team (who's race pilot was Lockheed Test Pilot School grad/ Air Force test pilot Skip Holm of Have Blue, F-117 fame) to Jimmy Leeward. Jimmy never invited Skip to fly the airplane after the wing clip, never asked anyone about any flight test and refused advise from people that knew some good things came from flight test. (Dave Zueschel built Stiletto the year of N79111's sale to Jimmy and it had the same short wing clip and scoopless fuselage, Skip Holm noted significant peculiarities in the airplane's handling in pitch at high IAS, but praised the wing clip though noting a slow roll rate. Skip won the 1984 Reno final in Stiletto, it's first time out.) No comprehensive or even partial flight test was done on Spectre X, LARS, Galloping Ghost ever in Leeward's ownership from 1983 to 2011.

A good friend and race pilot was crew chief on Spectre X, as Jimmy's racer was known in 1983 and he said he could not make any sense of Jimmy's mental process through the period of Monday through Wednesday of race week as Leeward proceeded to blow one engine per day trying to set a qualifying record with green engines. This man is a well respected warbird restoration specialist and was the back-up pilot for the famous Red Baron RB-51. He refused to work with Leeward ever again.

Leeward was a darling with the RARA officials, and a great realtor. He owned a famous airplane that had raced through the racing era from 1946 to 2011 (maybe, some say it is not really the airframe of the 40's racer), was Miss Candace, and Jeannie and won many races and set many race records. It'd been rebuilt many times (bellied in in 1970 and 1981), but was always a well groomed racer prepared by teams at Sanders Aeronautics in Long Beach, Aero Sport in Chino and then Zeuschel in Van Nuys that worked hard to make it a safe racer with good integrity. These qualities were thwarted by Leeward when assembling a race team under his ownership.

No team is as dysfunctional as was the accident aircraft team. No airplane is as potentially dangerous and no pilot as limited as that embodied in the Galloping Ghost 2011. The teams that elect to race this year will be those ready to submit to the most rigorous inspections of airplane and paperwork that has ever been at the Reno race. I predict all will come through with minimal effort as the effort will have been done before arrival.

It should be a safe 2012 race this month. 2011's fatal accident was an anomaly made up of many factors. One can read/watch about them in the exhaustive NTSB report and hearing video recordings.

Chris...  

 
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 01:35:22 AM by Chris McMillin »

Offline jim gilmore

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Re: Reno air race incident
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2012, 01:46:41 AM »
that seems to document why flight test programs are neccessary and even years down the road.

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Reno air race incident
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2012, 09:14:16 AM »
 Thanks Chris.
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Reno air race incident
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2012, 05:43:23 AM »
I do hope they crack down on the safety.   Will probably never make Reno, but did get to see them one day at the old Olathe Navel Air Station.   Getting to see the planes up close and then hearing them come down the front stretch made for goose bumps like I never had before.   
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Reno air race incident
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2012, 10:28:52 AM »
  Hey Doc;
    Chris and I were there. Not sure what year, maybe 1993? More of an airshow than air race, but was pretty cool. Most exciting thing was Mickey Rupp blowing a Jack Roush Merlin in his Mustang. It was only a 6 mile course, and not much of a scatter zone, so they really couldn't get wound up. All the planes were there , though. They call that the Johnson County Air Park now, I think. Will probably never happen again as too much population there now.
  Type at you later,
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Reno air race incident
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2012, 05:44:19 AM »
I don't think they even fly planes out of there anymore.   At least I haven't seen any the many times I have been out that way.   I can remember  JJ(my son) and the ROTC group leaving in a Navy plane for San Diego for a few days.  Almost didn't let him go.   Can you beleive he is now in his 40's.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.


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