Author Topic: Reno Accident. Not Good. (Read 10956 times)

Steve Fitton · « **on:** September 16, 2011, 06:40:46 PM »

Reports that a P-51 went into the spectators area a short time ago? has anyone heard this?

Bruce Perry · « **Reply #1 on:** September 16, 2011, 06:52:11 PM »

see this....
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2011-09-16/plane-crash-Reno/50436272/1

Bruce Perry · « **Reply #2 on:** September 16, 2011, 06:55:14 PM »

here it is....

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #3 on:** September 16, 2011, 07:04:42 PM »

My heart goes out to all those poor people in the path of that plane and its unfortunate pilot. What a mess.

At some point hopefully Chris or one of the guys out west will have the facts on the incident and not the inaccurate media version.

Mike Keville · « **Reply #4 on:** September 16, 2011, 07:15:03 PM »

Chris McMillin, Bill Byles .... let's hear from you regarding real facts, rather than the usual media hype. Thanks!

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #5 on:** September 16, 2011, 07:55:23 PM »

Well, I'm in Sacramento and close to Reno so coverage may be better than in some places. Plane was "Galloping Ghost" Mustang, Pilot Jimmy Leeward. On eye-witness report who claimed to be an experienced pilot and race fan claimed he saw an elevator fly off just prior to the plane going out of control.

Clint Ormosen · « **Reply #6 on:** September 16, 2011, 08:08:17 PM »

I just watched the video and it's horrible. I almost went this year but I didn't want to miss the Meet N Meat contest. I wouldn't have wanted to see that crash live. Prayers for all involved in this unfortunate accident.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #7 on:** September 16, 2011, 08:27:41 PM »

It was Jimmy Leeward and Galloping Ghost. Still finding out details at this time but getting information from someone who was there it sounds like a structural failure, possibly the tail empannage, causing total loss of control. Rounding the corner for the front straight the plane abruptly pulled up rolling slightly in a Mayday with a visible attempt at correction and then nosed over. It happened at the worst possible point on the course and the aircraft impacted in a near vertical attitude into the box seat area.

I am stunned at this point, I am a huge fan of the Reno Air Races. Condolences to all involved.

Fred Cronenwett · « **Reply #8 on:** September 16, 2011, 09:01:00 PM »

I witnessed the crash of Miss Ashley II from Plylon #2 more than several years ago and will never forget it. I can still see that crash as if I saw it yesterday, everyone that witnessed this crash may have the same reaction I had.

So sad to see this happen, especially with spectators getting killed and injured. Not good. No words can express the grief properly.

Fred Cronenwett

Norm Faith Jr. · « **Reply #9 on:** September 16, 2011, 09:15:40 PM »

We are hearing "flutter." It can happen so quick.
Norm

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #10 on:** September 16, 2011, 09:32:22 PM »

News said he was 80 years old. Regardless how experienced he was or his health, this will surely bring medicals/ age limits back into the spotlight.
It was said that Bill Odom's crash of his P-51C into an occupied house `49 ended the Cleveland Air Races. Hopefully sanity will prevail.

What a tragedy...sympathies to all involved.

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #11 on:** September 16, 2011, 09:41:25 PM »

News accounts of aviation accidents are always wrong. I don't know what Jimmy's age was, but I doubt if he was 80.

Our prayers go out for Jimmy and all those people. I hope that we don't get the typical over reaction and have air racing shut down.

YouTube has already shut down the link.

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #12 on:** September 16, 2011, 09:47:06 PM »

Here's a quick note and link to Mike Keville, I have another I'll post and then to bed. I'm on a trip.
Bad day, bad scene, essentially the end of closed course air racing.
Chris...

Check this one, Mike. Best vid so far. Looks like he may have lost control and pulled nearly vertical while rolling right and ended up inverted over the pits. At point the airplane executed an inside pull to a vertical down line and hit the ground at the front row of box seats on the ramp in front of the grandstands.
Some guys say that it lost it's rudder, some say the rudder was banging back and forth. It would take a tremdous amount of strength to do that with the rudder pedals so it may have had rudder flutter or the observations might have been inaccurate. Or they may be right on. hard to say, I've seen two vids and have remaining questions myself.
Chris...

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #13 on:** September 16, 2011, 09:48:38 PM »

Actually, it looks like an old fashioned high-speed stall to me. But you know more than I do.

M.

It may have been. Once it was inverted, his pulling positive G was the end. I would've been thinking that a push to inverted flight at that point and maintain altitude until stabilizing the roll snatching, as it looks as if it does a bit of twitching in roll throughout the maneuver, then a recovery half roll to upright.
In another film, the one on CNN, as the Bearcat goes by I see Stu Dawson (Bear pilot this year) rolling wings level and then back and forth, totally uncharacteristic at that point on the course where they are usually locked into a left bank. This is at the same time as the accident maneuver of the Mustang. I wonder what the connection of these two odd attitudes by the two racers means. They must have had a close call, a near miss, an unusual thing for them both. We need, and I'm sure there is, a film of the back straight along the valley of speed into turn eight where all of this will be revealed.
Chris...

Elwyn Aud · « **Reply #14 on:** September 16, 2011, 09:50:59 PM »

(AP Photo/Grass Valley Union, Tim O'Brien) MANDATORY CREDIT

A photo taken just before the accident appears to show a missing elevator trim tab. At the 98 races Voodoo Chile lost an elevator trim tab causing a 10G pull up. When the pilot came to he was at 9000 feet and was able to regain control and bring the plane down for a safe landing.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #15 on:** September 16, 2011, 09:57:44 PM »

Are you at Reno Elwyn?

Elwyn Aud · « **Reply #16 on:** September 16, 2011, 10:01:47 PM »

Just found it on Yahoo news

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #17 on:** September 16, 2011, 10:19:03 PM »

Reports now say he's 74.

Look at this pic.
Is he ducking or passed out? (heart attack, blackout?)
You'd think that you could at least see his helmet?

Mike Mulligan · « **Reply #18 on:** September 16, 2011, 10:30:48 PM »

Many of the pilots and crew post in the message boards at Warbird Aero Press (link below). The pic backs up what was reported from the ramp hours ago; trim tab parted the airplane.

I am heartsick and feel kind of like I've been punched in the stomach. I've been a Reno fan since I was a kid and follow the goings-on year round. Jimmy Leeward was a long-time Reno participant and a well-respected and capable pilot. (He was 74, by the way, not 80 as the press seems to be reporting.) My prayers go out to his family and for everyone involved.

http://www.warbirdaeropress.com/

Mike

wwwarbird · « **Reply #19 on:** September 16, 2011, 10:31:02 PM »

I'm not going to speculate at this time. At this point none of it matters. We've suffered an absolutely terrible loss today and speculation usually only fuels the anti-aviation and anti-competition types. We will find out soon enough the exact cause, but at this time we need to think of those injured and people who have lost loved ones. This is a real bad one, I still can hardly believe it.

Mike Mulligan · « **Reply #20 on:** September 16, 2011, 10:38:30 PM »

I agree Wayne. Could not have been better said...

A very sad day.

Mike

billbyles · « **Reply #21 on:** September 16, 2011, 11:37:49 PM »

Quote from: Douglas Ames on September 16, 2011, 10:19:03 PM

Reports now say he's 74.

Look at this pic.
Is he ducking or passed out? (heart attack, blackout?)
You'd think that you could at least see his helmet?

The photo looks strange to me...kinda like it may be an earlier photo that was "photoshopped". Notice the tailwheel was extended while the main gear is shown fully retracted. As to the pilot not showing in the cockpit, I have been in the Red Baron, Dago Red, and Strega and there is hardly enough room to bend down that far, especially considering that the pilot is strapped into a parachute with a five-point harness system fastened tightly on top of the parachute straps. When sitting in the cockpit of a racing Mustang with a small canopy like that your helmet nearly touches the canopy and your shoulders are touching the sides of the cockpit.

Elwyn Aud · « **Reply #22 on:** September 16, 2011, 11:52:42 PM »

http://www.rgj.com/article/20110916/EVENTS05/110916036/Plane-crashes-Reno-National-Championship-Air-Races

More photos here. One shows the tail wheel extended. In the earlier inverted photo it appears the pilot's helmet is all the way forward against the instrument panel.

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #23 on:** September 17, 2011, 12:51:54 AM »

   Similar situation with Bob Hannah's close call in '97 or '98? I saw an interview with him about that one. Fluttered the trim tab off Voodo and the lack of trim cause an abrupt pitch up and he blacked out. He said he had his belts loosened a bit to be able to better reach the instrument panel. That let his upper body bend forward and the G forces pinned his upper body to his lap, but fortunately the planes attitude had it in a climbing spiral. He came to a little bit and could not sit back up. He managed to get his hand up to the throttle and pulled the power back and freed himself up. Still a little groggy he thought he could get back in the race, but soon realized he had a real problem and maydayed out. He retired from air racing after that. Like Wayne said, it doesn't really matter at this point, but I think it helps to understand as soon as possible. As soon as it happened it was probably all out of his hands and he may have blacked out. Hannah was lucky, and this time luck wasn't on anybody's side.
   Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
PS to add;
A bit of tragic irony is that Galloping Ghost finished second in 1949 in Cleveland, I think, the year Bill Odum's crash pretty much ended racing in Cleveland. Might be the same end result here.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #24 on:** September 17, 2011, 08:53:20 AM »

I seen the report on the computorwhen I first logged on this AM. It was tragic and the impact looks like it was not in the box are it self but out a short distance. It is all the debrie that is flying around that I think got to the people. Could have been worse if it had impacted in the box itself. But racing has it's dangers when it comes to motorized racing. Look at NASCAR when a driver went airborne and hit the catch fence. Several people hurt in that one also. Todays racing is so much safer if you go back and look at the old videos of the planes, boats and cars. Maybe if cooler heads prevail the races will continue with the spectators moved a little further back. There have been lives lost in air shows and they still go on. I do hope this does not end air racing.

I did get to attend the one air race at the old Olathe Naval Air Station a few years ago. The planes coming down that long front stretch and feeling the power was awesome. Even that day they had one plane call a mayday and pull up and off the course away from the crowd. He landed safely.

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #25 on:** September 17, 2011, 03:28:26 PM »

Steve Beville's original '"Galloping Ghost", circa Cleveland Air Races 1949.

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #26 on:** September 18, 2011, 07:23:29 AM »

The two high def photos of the Ghost inverted and then straight down are real. They'll be very useful to the investigators. Looks like the trim tab caused the pitch up, and Jimmy suffered GLOC, G Induced Loss Of Consciousness. Same as happened to Voodoo and 44 year old motocross rider and athlete Bob Hanna who was it's race pilot then.
Too bad it didn't happen out on the backside of the course. Bummer all the way around.
Chris...

PerttiMe · « **Reply #27 on:** September 18, 2011, 08:12:41 AM »

I am sure lots of photos have been taken during the flight.

Somewhere, it was mentioned that the Galloping ghost went through hard turbulence during the race start. Also, it was thought that there may have been "wrinkles" in the airframe during the flight.

I'm sure the investigators have lots of material. We don't...

jim gilmore · « **Reply #28 on:** September 18, 2011, 08:53:46 AM »

I would think there is a service notice about trim tabs and checking them under some kind of ultra violet inspection at their attachment points.....but the age of these aircraft might mean that the numbers of service bullitens has diminished and nobody has issued one to this part for the last 40 years. I would think the faa may have issued some but maybe not.
It is a shame that until something breaks such notices are unchecked and at risk.

Joe Gilbert · « **Reply #29 on:** September 18, 2011, 08:07:45 PM »

Chris did that Mustang have the elevator metalized? I don't know that plane.

PerttiMe · « **Reply #30 on:** September 19, 2011, 02:39:06 AM »

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=6c8fe5e9-cf50-4e61-aae2-e56fa5bda288

"""""""""""""""""""""
An NTSB Briefing concluded late Sunday, with additional details, but it's obvious that they have dug in and are giving this matter very serious consideration. In addition to the many reports filed by ANN starting within minutes of the tragedy itself, we now know the following:

•The NTSB has recovered 'components' which may be part of the P-51's horizontal stab and elevator... possibly even the elevator trim tab, which is a specified point of inquiry (as noted in previous ANN reports).

•The NTSB has received a significant amount of photographic and video evidence -- some of which show the process whereby the elevator trim tab separated from the horizontal stabilizer.

•There is no evidence of the much-reported 'Mayday' call.

•The NTSB has completed the onsite portion of the investigation.

•Jimmy Leeward's Galloping Ghost had a telemetry system and cameras on board that fed memory cards as well as a transmitter that reported info to his support crew. NTSB learned about this while interviewing the crew. The ground data is in the hands of the NTSB and is being analyzed while memory cards found at the scene are being examined to see if they come from Leeward's "Galloping Ghost" and if they contain useful data. A great deal of physical evidence is being forwarded to NTSB labs in DC and elsewhere.

•The NTSB did make recommendations in 1972, as regards the issues of aircraft separation from crowds and populated locations. Those recommendations did result in 'acceptable' actions by the Reno Racing officials and that older matter is considered closed.

•A Preliminary Report is expected to be posted to the NTSB website by the end of this week. The Final Report, of course, will take considerably longer.
"""""""""""""""""""""

Mark Misegadis · « **Reply #31 on:** September 19, 2011, 04:53:41 PM »

This was my first Reno event.

I was there Wed-Thurs with my Wife and had to fly home Friday morning. We had a blast on those two days and I was making my plans to go back all the way home. I am still in shock at this terrible news and the loss.

The post relating to VooDoo is correct in my opinion. I had a talk with a Pilot friend of mine who gave me that "Old guy in a 51.. bad idea" line. I have a background in motorsports and can tell when something breaks and leaves you with limited options. He as since recanted.

I am going to remember the good stuff, Pray for everyone that has lost a loved one and the ones who were lost and continue to make my plans to go back with a good buddy of mine when this shakes out. I met Jay Jones who ran "Quad Nickel" and "Last Lap Player" in the F1 class. I have an invite to come up and chat airplane racing. Damn nice guy as was everyone I met.

Here are the links to my two Picasa folders for both days for the rest of you. There are nice photos of the Ghost. I hope they make you all smile.

Mark

https://picasaweb.google.com/108510903214451052726/RenoAirRace09142011?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCNH18NWQt7-BEw&feat=directlink

https://picasaweb.google.com/108510903214451052726/RenoAirRace09152011?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCMba3LrtveD0xAE&feat=directlink

Dan Bregar · « **Reply #32 on:** September 19, 2011, 07:58:57 PM »

I arrived 40 min. after the crash. The mood was somber & silent around the pit area. My first time at Reno and it was sad. More will be revealed. Hope it comes back next year.

Fred Cronenwett · « **Reply #33 on:** September 19, 2011, 08:31:04 PM »

Mark,

Awesome pictures, the F2G was interesting along with the firefly.

The kid in the Grandstands with hearing protectors flying his toy airplane is a classic, that says it all.....

Fred C.

Chad Hill · « **Reply #34 on:** September 19, 2011, 08:45:05 PM »

I have this from a source acquainted with several P-51 pilots with prior race time:

"In 1989 this type of thing happened to another pilot but he lived to tell the story. When flying a P-51 at 450+mph you need to have full nose down trim to keep the plane level. The elevator trim tab broke off and the aircraft immediately went into a 10G climb, confirmed by the G meter. The pilot came to from the sudden blackout and was able to reach the throttle, pull it back to slow down, recover and land".

Regarding the widely seen photos of Galloping Ghost just prior to impact with its tail wheel extended:

"The tail wheel is held up by hydraulics only with no mechanical uplock, thus indicating a high G force causing it to extend".

Dwayne · « **Reply #35 on:** September 19, 2011, 09:20:53 PM »

Quote from: Chad Hill on September 19, 2011, 08:45:05 PM

I have this from a source acquainted with several P-51 pilots with prior race time:

"In 1989 this type of thing happened to another pilot but he lived to tell the story. When flying a P-51 at 450+mph you need to have full nose down trim to keep the plane level. The elevator trim tab broke off and the aircraft immediately went into a 10G climb, confirmed by the G meter. The pilot came to from the sudden blackout and was able to reach the throttle, pull it back to slow down, recover and land".

Regarding the widely seen photos of Galloping Ghost just prior to impact with its tail wheel extended:

"The tail wheel is held up by hydraulics only with no mechanical uplock, thus indicating a high G force causing it to extend".

Yup just saw a report that says the same thing, the plane you are talking about was the VooDoo it lost it's trim tab at speed causing the plane to pull straight up causing the pilot to black out, it is now believed that the same thing happened to the Galloping Ghost it lost a trim tab at speed pulled straight up knocking out Jimmy Leeward but this time the Galloping Ghost turned over sending it straight down into the tarmac,at anyrate it looks like Jimmy may not have known he was going to crash he was probably unconscious

wwwarbird · « **Reply #36 on:** September 19, 2011, 09:45:12 PM »

Awsome group of photos Mark, thank you for sharing.

Air Ministry . · « **Reply #37 on:** September 20, 2011, 02:20:55 AM »

Anyone with aeronautical intrests can be gratefull it didnt pan out like Pierre LeVaughs Le Mans prang ,
it looks like the engine went hurtling across the airfield at a great rate of knots .
In light of the potential damadge , casulties were very light , and thankfully no fireball on impact .

john e. holliday · « **Reply #38 on:** September 20, 2011, 08:52:18 AM »

Thanks for the great pictures of some beaultiful airplanes. Lots of ideas for schemes for painting our planes. Hope this doesn't end the Reno Air Races. My thoughts to the pilots family and all the families involved in this trage H^^ty.

Serge_Krauss · « **Reply #39 on:** September 20, 2011, 01:25:53 PM »

Mark-

Thanks for posting those marvelous pictures. They portray the spirit and wonder of the event and certainly would discourage that over-repeated "vintage plane" insinuation so obvious in one of the AP articles authored by a couple yellow-press ignoramuses. Your pictures make me wish I'd witnessed some of these events. I hope we all will be able to continue to do so.

SK

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #40 on:** September 20, 2011, 02:49:31 PM »

Quote from: Chad Hill on September 19, 2011, 08:45:05 PM

I have this from a source acquainted with several P-51 pilots with prior race time:

"In 1989 this type of thing happened to another pilot but he lived to tell the story. When flying a P-51 at 450+mph you need to have full nose down trim to keep the plane level. The elevator trim tab broke off and the aircraft immediately went into a 10G climb, confirmed by the G meter. The pilot came to from the sudden blackout and was able to reach the throttle, pull it back to slow down, recover and land".

Regarding the widely seen photos of Galloping Ghost just prior to impact with its tail wheel extended:

"The tail wheel is held up by hydraulics only with no mechanical uplock, thus indicating a high G force causing it to extend".

A strong case for an adjustable stabilizer.
These airframes are being pushed beyond the limits they were designed for. MISS ASHLEY II was a bold attempt at a scratch built Air Racer, I'd really like to see all the big players get together and design a spec. airframe that will take a Radial or V-config engine.

Doug Moon · « **Reply #41 on:** September 20, 2011, 09:22:19 PM »

The accident is horrifying. The deaths are even worse. I was shocked to see this.

But then reading the plane has to have full down trim to fly at the speeds makes me think there are some issues there with the airframes at those speeds. Has to be a way that the airframe can be modified so it can be manageable should the trim tab become damaged or unresponsive. I am sure the engineers have thought about it. But it just seems weird that the whole plane at those speeds relys on that tiny little tab...

Mark,

Those are really great pictures. I really like Relentless and Big Frog. Those are really cool looking planes.

billbyles · « **Reply #42 on:** September 20, 2011, 10:27:34 PM »

Quote from: Chad Hill on September 19, 2011, 08:45:05 PM

I have this from a source acquainted with several P-51 pilots with prior race time:

"In 1989 this type of thing happened to another pilot but he lived to tell the story. When flying a P-51 at 450+mph you need to have full nose down trim to keep the plane level. The elevator trim tab broke off and the aircraft immediately went into a 10G climb, confirmed by the G meter. The pilot came to from the sudden blackout and was able to reach the throttle, pull it back to slow down, recover and land".

Regarding the widely seen photos of Galloping Ghost just prior to impact with its tail wheel extended:

"The tail wheel is held up by hydraulics only with no mechanical uplock, thus indicating a high G force causing it to extend".

Not the case; the tailwheel has a mechanical uplock - the hydraulics actuate the tailwheel up & down.

Mark Misegadis · « **Reply #43 on:** September 20, 2011, 10:29:00 PM »

Guys I am glad you all like the pictures.

That little guy with the biplane was a busy kid and very cute. There was another just like him in a group of folks that were part of the racing community and was known to be able to name nearly any plane on site. While the Biplanes were staging Dad said to him.."Wow thats a pretty cool plane... Looks like a Stearman to me." The little guy sounded very offended and said.."Thats not a Stearman!"
These little ones are the future thats for sure.

Mark

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #44 on:** September 21, 2011, 12:31:08 PM »

Quote from: Joe Gilbert on September 18, 2011, 08:07:45 PM

Chris did that Mustang have the elevator metalized? I don't know that plane.

Yes, most D models and thereafter had metal elevators. Early ones had fabric but were retrofitted. The trim tabs were phenolic stock, but they are usually replaced with metal ones, too.
Chris...

Elwyn Aud · « **Reply #45 on:** September 21, 2011, 05:27:43 PM »

Here is a link to the clearest video I've seen of the accident. Caution- It's fairly graphic.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2011/09/20/von-reno-air-crash-new.kgw?hpt=hp_t2

jim gilmore · « **Reply #46 on:** September 21, 2011, 06:59:56 PM »

Just one point of interest..In movies every crash results in a fireball and the reality is not the same.
It can but not always....
Thank goodness that the casualties were low.

Dan Bregar · « **Reply #47 on:** September 21, 2011, 07:08:32 PM »

Not low enough, unfortunately.

Bill Ervin · « **Reply #48 on:** September 21, 2011, 07:16:32 PM »

Elwyn, I had not seen that video version before you posted the link, thank you.

Man, it really put a lump in my throat.

Elwyn Aud · « **Reply #49 on:** September 21, 2011, 07:17:17 PM »

I read where one victim reported getting sprayed with avgas.

Author Topic: Reno Accident. Not Good. (Read 10956 times)

Dwayne