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Author Topic: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American  (Read 2796 times)

Offline Sean McEntee

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Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« on: April 12, 2012, 07:47:13 PM »
         In the heat of all of the discussions reguarding Mr Villasensor's first article, he contacted me via email about a month ago, and weve been trading emails up until this past monday.  It was at that time that he told me that he was writting a follow-on article on the difference between model aircraft and UAVs, and wanted my input.  He called me Wednesday afternoon and went through his draft, and made a few tweaks, but overall I thought it was a good article, from both the model aviation and the UAV side of the fence.  The article went live on the SA website this morning.  The link is posted below


http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2012/04/12/what-is-a-drone-anyway/

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2012, 08:00:31 PM »
Start flying planes like this and don't mess wid Homeland !!!
Paul Smith

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2012, 08:13:53 PM »
It seems a fair, descriptive article.
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2012, 08:14:45 PM »
Sean,
Thanks for posting the link to this article, and for your obvious involvement and influence in the product.
I admit I owe Mr Villasenor an apology.  Not for criticism of his original article of course but for his honesty and realization that his previous views were not not the whole story.  This article ceratinly goes a long way to draw a careful separation between autonomus flight vehicles and model airplanes.
For that I applaud him.
I'm not sure it does anything to lessen the impact the "drone" situation will have on modeling but at least it presents an honest picture.

Randy Cuberly
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Offline dave siegler

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2012, 08:51:15 PM »
Sean,

You are a gentleman and a scholar.  Great job.  I just worry that the damage has been done already.  Everyone remembers the first shot, and the media has put drones as bad. 

Will you be up at Oshkosh this summer? 

Dave 
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Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2012, 09:48:05 PM »
           Well, leave the UAV side of it to us professionals to fix H^^  But as far as the modeling end goes, I would like to do more stuff like this.  People wont see CL as a "dying pastime" if they see folks in their 20s doing it.  Being one of only a handfull of folks in that position, I have my work cut out for me  %^@

           Dave, planning on it.  Going to put my paperwork in next week with all intentions of going.  I PCS to Ft Hood next month, and its up to my new command to let me go.


Cheers,
Sean

Offline john villasenor

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2012, 09:53:32 PM »
Sean - thanks very much for taking the time to discuss these important issues on the phone. I'm hoping that this article will serve as a reference point to convey to the wider public two very important things: 1) that model airplanes and "drones" are not at all the same thing, and 2) military aviators like you are extremely skilled and highly trained, and are extremely important assets to our military and our country.

Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2012, 10:54:47 PM »
Start flying planes like this and don't mess wid Homeland !!!

         If I ever make it around to indoor FF, my first rubber scale project is going to be done up like Kyle Franklins PA-18 Super Cub.  Only problem is it would have to be in REALLY poor trim in order to fly "realistically".  Youtube "Kyle Franklin Comedy Act" if you don't know what I mean  LL~

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2012, 01:26:51 AM »
And by strict definition, C/L models are not "model aircraft".  They are "tethered devices".  They NEVER are unattached to the ground (if everything is going well, of course).  As such, we don't actually have a dog in this fight.  They are comparable to flying a kite, or even casting a lure into the hot spot on a river.  NOTARs should have no affect on us, except in the unfortunately narrow view of the park administration where we fly.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

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Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2012, 02:49:46 AM »
And by strict definition, C/L models are not "model aircraft".  They are "tethered devices".  They NEVER are unattached to the ground (if everything is going well, of course).  As such, we don't actually have a dog in this fight.  They are comparable to flying a kite, or even casting a lure into the hot spot on a river.  NOTARs should have no affect on us, except in the unfortunately narrow view of the park administration where we fly.

        Hey Larry!

        Was great to see you and Jim at VSC!

        NOTAMs SHOULDNT affect us...but they do.  Last fall, Dad was preparing to do a demonstration at a high school when a TFR went up over St Louis thanks to our Commander in Chief.  We didnt take any chances and planned accordingly by observing the posted times in the TFR, bringing a copy of the NOTAM to the demo in case the local boys in blue showed up, and called Lambert Intl. Approach to check for changes.
        The general public doesnt know the difference....a model airplane is a model airplane to most people, including the FAA.  So to tune out this particular problem that the AMA is having with the FAA regulations on sUAS would not be prudent.
        And you cant exactly fly kites anywhere either.  We had Afghans flying kites in our approach paths to try to mess with our operations.  Im sure stateside ATC would appreciate it about as much as we did.

Offline Douglas Ames

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2012, 11:27:34 AM »
Well written and researched.

To bad the rest of the news media can't do this either because of censorship from their superiors or just incompetence. AOL's Huffpost is a good example. You'd think it was written by high schoolers.
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2012, 12:22:52 AM »
When you outlaw guns only outlaws will have them. Terrorists are not going to license anything. So why worry. Please bring back the greatest generation WW2 vets. We need to take a stand. if they are going to get you they will. No need to worry about it. We are the only nation of pansies that have a color coded terrorist alert system. Its only to keep you in fear. So is this nonsense!
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Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2012, 03:43:20 PM »
When you outlaw guns only outlaws will have them. Terrorists are not going to license anything. So why worry. Please bring back the greatest generation WW2 vets. We need to take a stand. if they are going to get you they will. No need to worry about it. We are the only nation of pansies that have a color coded terrorist alert system. Its only to keep you in fear. So is this nonsense!

       Bob I think you either read the wrong article, or you misunderstood this one.  Nowhere in this newer collumn does John mention the "federal licensing" idea that was mention in his previous writings.  Through the past threads, it has been well established that any type of regulation beyond the AMA is redundant, as well as failing to meet the needs of counter-terrorism.

       This article attempts to clearly define the point at which a model airplane stops being a model airplane.  That line has started to get blurry over the years, especially with FAA-imposed regulations on sUAS.  For the first time, I feel that my AMA dues are getting put to good use with all of the lobbying in Washington and the FAA.  This and other future articles (I plan on sitting down and writing one or two of my own here in the future) will go a long way to ensure that modeling as we know it stays intact.  Many have stated that the CL community shouldnt have to worry, and this is true.  However, is Free Flight safe...particularly some of the larger-sized gas models?  They climb up to to almost 1000 feet in a matter of seconds and, if all goes well, will fly for several miles before DTing....all UNCONTROLLED. Also, would it really be a good idea, in our own interest, to let RC get thrown under the bus? 

Offline john villasenor

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2012, 06:33:54 PM »
Sean - Thanks for clarifying.

One of my goals in writing this was to clearly convey that, whatever definition of "drone" someone might adopt, that definition should not include traditional model airplanes. I think that it's an important distinction to make, particularly among the broader public, who may tend to think that anything that flies without an on-board pilot must be a "drone."  The AMA has put a link to this article on the upper right of the AMA home page.

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2012, 06:55:03 PM »
Also, would it really be a good idea, in our own interest, to let RC get thrown under the bus?  

Absoluty not! I am just to sick of this parnoia. There is no way to protect us from everything. Laws like locks , Keep honest people honest and make it tuff on those people who are!
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 10:10:27 PM by Robert Storick »
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2012, 09:36:01 AM »
My Dad used to tell me the same thing in different words.     Locks, gates and fences keep out the honest people.    H^^
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Online EddyR

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2012, 01:30:34 PM »

Gone
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 01:13:31 PM by Ed Ruane »
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2012, 03:20:23 PM »
My Dad used to tell me the same thing in different words.     Locks, gates and fences keep out the honest people.    H^^


       When you were a kid, and your HLG landed in someone elses fenced in back yard...did it keep you out?  Not me....  LL~  LL~  LL~

Online EddyR

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2012, 10:05:29 AM »
Figuers NPR = Libral Pro Obama loose your rights agenda.


Gone y1 f~
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 01:14:29 PM by Ed Ruane »
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Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2012, 06:01:17 PM »
Here is the link to the interview:

http://www.npr.org/2012/04/17/150817060/drones-move-from-war-zones-to-the-home-front

    I thought it was a very good discussion, both between Conon and Villasensor, as well as the callers.  The line between models and UAVs were clearly established right away, which is good for the modeling community.  As far as the discussion on UAVs go, all the points that were hit were valid.  There is a great potential for UASs in the civilian market.  Technologies that could possibly develop from UASs could cross over and impact our daily lives.  Also there were allot of merit in the topics of the challenges the FAA has with integrating sUASs into the class E with VFR GA traffic, as well as the potential privacy issues that, if gone unaddressed, could be problematic.

    The big topic that was discussed as far as privacy is that of celebrities, and as much of an eye-roller as that topic can be, celebrities are people too.  One caller expressed her concerns about private investigators using UAVs.  I think that is out of the realm of possible uses.  UAVs are incapable of collecting audio inteligence due to engine and propeller noise.  There are also allot cheaper ways of doing things like interecpting phone calls and emails.  A cell phone, a laptop, and some software is all you need to interecept cell phone calls (im keeping the "how" to myself  :) ) And there are tons of people out there with the knowlege needed to hack into someones computer and email.  So there are things that UAVs COULD do, but are cost prohibitive to do them with unmanned platforms.

     I might just submit my own story idea to NPR....
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 07:41:12 PM by Sean McEntee »

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2012, 11:14:03 PM »
Robert I found your comments to me to be offensive and out of place since the thread is about model aircraft and possible restriction of them. What station one listens to on the radio in not important to the topic. You seem to be going against your own counsel to keep politics off the forum.
 I will certainly keep my comments from now on to myself.
Ed


First off it was not directed specifically to you! The reason I even made the statement Has nothing to do with you it has to do with the liberal knuckleheads. I listened to the show and he did separate model aircraft from drones. I do not like NPR how they always spin things and I use to listen everyday to Dianne Ream and the rest of them but quit because of how they paint the picture. I know why we don't have flying cars, could you image everyone flying a car? they now cant operate them on the ground.

I don't link red light cameras. I don't like the idea of spy drones. Every one better wake up! We will be under siege soon.

This issue has tremendous abuse possibility's. If the want to use them to patrol boarders fine they should not use them in urban areas. Its like stalking and also will be dangerous to Real aircraft. Someone will get killed.

He talked about a model plane first person view flying. Line of sight. But failed to mention Line of transmiter output.

I am glad I will be dead when we become a county thats diffrent than the one I grew up in. Think of your KIDS! They will still be here.
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Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2012, 03:22:46 AM »

I don't link red light cameras. I don't like the idea of spy drones. Every one better wake up! We will be under siege soon.

This issue has tremendous abuse possibility's. If the want to use them to patrol boarders fine they should not use them in urban areas. Its like stalking and also will be dangerous to Real aircraft. Someone will get killed.

      Bob I have to say im dissapointed in this post.  People fear what they dont understand, and from there that fear takes on a mind of its own.  People need to realize that no police department has the budget--especially NOW in the current economy--to purchase UAVs for every man, woman and child in their jursidiction.  What UAVs that are operated by police will cost money every time that they are flown.   Back in my Shadow days, I did the math.  With fuel, maintenance and so on, it costs Uncle Sam almost $3,000/hour in the air to operate.  With that pricetag, there's no way that you are going to see UAVs swarming over cities by the thousands.  They will be used for things like hostages, high speed chases, highway patrol, and providing situational awareness for things such as raids on drug houses.

     As far as news media's use of UAVs go, then yes, there will be issues of personal privacy until existing laws can catch up.  How many years did cell phones exist before laws were passed that prohibit texting while driving?  This happens any time a radically new technology is introduced in large quantities.

     In reguards to aviation safety, one must be realistic.  Near misses and close calls between manned aircraft occur everyday.  Actual contact also a reality when pilots are disoriented or distracted in the cockpit.  While it would be great if we would never have any sort of collision or near miss between manned and unmanned aircraft, it will happen.  It already does happen when military aircraft and UAVs share airspace.  If I'm in the air, and I know that there is other traffic in the pattern, I establish communications with the pilot, we exchange our location and our intentions, and we work around each other.  Any operator--or pilot for that matter-- worth his salt will do the same.  Even all of this isnt bulletproof.  I've participated in my share of HATR (Hazardous Air Traffic Report) investigations, and have known dozens of operators who have done the same.  After all these years, and after all the incidences that I have seen, not one has been the fault of the operator.  I would estimate that 70% of the investigations find that the pilot was wrong place or altitude at the wrong time, not monitoring his/her radio, or misinterpreting ATC instructions.  The rest were atributed to lack of situational awareness by the traffic controllers themselves.   I recently experienced this here at Huachuca.  I called tower to announce my turn for, esentially, a touch-and-go.  Tower came back with "Titan11 cleared for full stop only.  Traffic is unmanned training aircraft in the pattern".  That unmanned training aircraft was ME!!!  There was no issue with other traffic, but its shows that the human factor is still very prevelant in manned as well as unmanned aviation.  The FAA certainly will be earning their paycheck in the seperation of UAS in national airspace.

He talked about a model plane first person view flying. Line of sight. But failed to mention Line of transmiter output.

    The term "line of sight" isnt restricted to visual observation.  Any device that transmits or recieves a signal needs "line of sight" with its source.  When your cell phone drops a call while in a remote area, its because it doesnt have "line of sight" with the cell phone tower.  An RC airplane that is flown in such as way that a large obsticle passes between the transmitter and the model will lose "line of sight" and thereby lose control.  Bigger UAVs that use either a sattilite system to control the aircraft or a preprogrammed flight plan does not need line of sight with its controller.  Thats's one of the boundery lines that John Villasenor was refering to.  Recreational RPV models are able to operate under that classification as long as it is in direct control with the modeler.  The minute it is able to fly past line of sight and continue to fly, then it crosses the into the description of a UAV.

 
I am glad I will be dead when we become a county thats diffrent than the one I grew up in. Think of your KIDS! They will still be here.
 I guess well just have to clean up the mess then.  Thanks....

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2012, 07:11:42 AM »
Once you loose all your rights you will never get them back. NEVER! I also do understand fully. I'm sorry we disagree but we will just have to agree to disagree.. I will say that UAV's at the boarders in UN populated areas would be good. But to have surveillance in city's no way. Soon we will have big brother watching every move you make. Whats next surveillance in the home? Once the cat is out of the bag its hard to catch him and get him back in. Just look at our own BOM.

  I guess well just have to clean up the mess then.  Thanks....

I just hope the voting public wakes up before its too late.



Tell me who this looks like?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 07:56:09 AM by Robert Storick »
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Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: Rebuttle article by John Villasensor in Scientific American
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2012, 06:57:50 PM »
     We can at least agree that the videos were good.  When Obama is walking out the back door of the White House, and is no longer my CIC, then I will share my sentiment  H^^


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