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Author Topic: Pull-pull control surfaces.  (Read 2550 times)

Offline Curare

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Pull-pull control surfaces.
« on: June 05, 2023, 10:54:39 PM »
Hi guys, I was having a think last night about the method of actuation we use for our control surfaces, namely pushrods and torque rods, while this used to be commonplace on most radio models too, there's been a quantum shift in favour of pull-pull cable actuation, especially in aerobatic circles.

 I wonder whether there's any scope to do this in stunt models. More specifically cable actuated flaps, not unlike full-size ailerons. I would have thought some simple geometry ciphering should yield a useable geometry, and allow us to operate the flaps from a more mid-span position, rather than relying on the horn and flap to be stiff enough to not suffer from blow back, and/or backlash.

So what am I missing? Why hasn't this been done in the past, and/or why is it a bad idea?

Greg
Greg Kowalski
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Re: Pull-pull control surfaces.
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2023, 01:07:41 AM »
A cable run (one for bottom, one for top) to the mid-span of the flaps would certainly add complexity. Also, an inspection of the runs would be difficult to arrange. Some sort of bearings would also be needed inside the wing. I doubt there would be real benefits for control.

Modern aerobatic R/C models do not use cables for ailerons. I think it is primarily for the rudder when you get perfectly straight cable runs. Extremely light indoor models are another matter. There, you save weight using kevlar threads from centrally mounted servos.
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Pull-pull control surfaces.
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2023, 05:36:25 AM »
I have used a "semi" pull-pull system.

On larger models I used the long 2/56 Dubro rods, top & bottom to the flipper.  They get limited push action, but mostly pull.
That way I don't need guides or heavy rods.

This plane has been working just fine for 15 years with a FOUR pull rod system, two each to the flaps and flippers.
Paul Smith

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Pull-pull control surfaces.
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2023, 10:34:35 AM »
I think it may be time for me to try this system in a new plane... Thanks Paul for the push to do that.  #^

Later - Bob Hunt   
And you guys think that a Canard is crazy....  ~^   I did the pully thing in the '70's and Bob is right about tension.  It was an elevator only on a double pully circular bellcrank.  It worked but was not any better than a bellcrank. Slop some days, tight others.  Too young to make the weather connection so I never tried it again.  I did keep the circular bellcrank.  I would think that we could use very thin, even as low as .025 wire, maybe RC Servo cables.  Making adjustments is the Devil in the Details. >:D  If anybody tries this PLEASE document it here, pictures, testimonials, post mortems.

Ken
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Offline Curare

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Re: Pull-pull control surfaces.
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2023, 11:00:09 PM »
So this was borne out of Howard Rush's thread in the Stunt Design Colum, about Flap Experiments: https://stunthanger.com/smf/stunt-design/some-flap-experiments/

Trying to actuate flaps via bellcranks (at least in my opnion) is a great way to introduce vague movements and slop, so i was thinking pull pull.

As another idea, would there be any benefit in having longer, stiffer torque rods (or torque tubes), to supply the actuation force closer to mid span?

Greg Kowalski
AUS 36694

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Pull-pull control surfaces.
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2023, 12:36:51 AM »
A few things to think about when comparing a pull-pull system to a pushrod system:

1.   The details of the installation may make all the difference. It might work in some situations and in others might be a step backwards.
2.   Cables will not like the relatively sharp bends that might be desired for a compact installation. (Like a mid-span flap actuator.) A prior posted comment about needing a straight run supports this. Cable manufacturer’s list the minimum bend radius for reasonable life. The larger the diameter of the cable the larger the pulley radius needed. Cables with smaller strands but higher strand counts bend more easily but the strands are damaged more easily. The same tradeoff we see with flying wires. Compare solids to 1x7, to 1x19 in the same nominal diameter.
3.   You have to have a guaranteed way to keep cables on a pulley or you are going to have a fouling issue. The more guides and guards you install (that actually do something) the more friction you will have in the system. In all the full scale systems I have seen cables always have more friction than suspended pushrods that use bearings.
4.   The structural/weight advantage of a pull-pull system is nebulous. To avoid “soft” controls you will need to preload the cables. That preload—however much you decide you need in order to avoid soft controls—is reacted 100% of the time thru the structure. Therefore, as one example, your aft fuselage will have compressive forces in it even in storage unless you “unrig” it after flying and before you hang it on the wall. By doing that, you risk losing your trim. So you will need a reliable way to get that back each time, or a setup that tolerates the preload for the life of the model. Springs in series with the cable, or a spring-mounted crank are some traditional solutions. But the stiffness of the spring needs to be high enough that the applied flight loads don’t overcome it. Or else you get soft controls at peak loads. The structure spacing out the controls (ie. the length of the aft fuselage) has to be even higher stiffness.
5.   Loads on some components will be higher. If it took x-pounds of pull on the elevator horn with a traditional system, it will take x+preload with the pull-pull system. So there’s going to need to be a sweet spot for the tension adjustment. Looser is bad; tighter is broken.
6.   The more work you put into a wire/cable system to eliminate stretch, the more your primary structure is going to have to give to prevent overloading something. In full-scale light planes, the rudder is often actuated by cables. These sometimes have preload springs, and sometimes the preload is supplied by the pilot’s legs.
7.   I have not seen a full-scale aerobatic plane that used cable controls for anything but the rudder. That may have changed with more modern aircraft? A ball bearing supported lightweight pushrod gives great control stiffness with little drag.
8.   I wonder how old-school conventional wisdom would reconcile this: “We can’t use R/C clevises on control line planes because our control loads are higher,” vs. “they are using pull-pull systems on a lot of R/C planes….”

I suspect that a pull-pull system on a control line plane will have some teething problems. If a simple, reliable system was demonstrated, I might reconsider building the great Panther sport-carrier design by Joe Demarco as published in Model Aviation. The high tail and the resulting push-pull cable seemed problematic....

Offline Curare

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Re: Pull-pull control surfaces.
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2023, 06:55:19 AM »
A few things to think about when comparing a pull-pull system to a pushrod system:

1.   The details of the installation may make all the difference. It might work in some situations and in others might be a step backwards.
2.   Cables will not like the relatively sharp bends that might be desired for a compact installation. (Like a mid-span flap actuator.) A prior posted comment about needing a straight run supports this. Cable manufacturer’s list the minimum bend radius for reasonable life. The larger the diameter of the cable the larger the pulley radius needed. Cables with smaller strands but higher strand counts bend more easily but the strands are damaged more easily. The same tradeoff we see with flying wires. Compare solids to 1x7, to 1x19 in the same nominal diameter.
3.   You have to have a guaranteed way to keep cables on a pulley or you are going to have a fouling issue. The more guides and guards you install (that actually do something) the more friction you will have in the system. In all the full scale systems I have seen cables always have more friction than suspended pushrods that use bearings.
4.   The structural/weight advantage of a pull-pull system is nebulous. To avoid “soft” controls you will need to preload the cables. That preload—however much you decide you need in order to avoid soft controls—is reacted 100% of the time thru the structure. Therefore, as one example, your aft fuselage will have compressive forces in it even in storage unless you “unrig” it after flying and before you hang it on the wall. By doing that, you risk losing your trim. So you will need a reliable way to get that back each time, or a setup that tolerates the preload for the life of the model. Springs in series with the cable, or a spring-mounted crank are some traditional solutions. But the stiffness of the spring needs to be high enough that the applied flight loads don’t overcome it. Or else you get soft controls at peak loads. The structure spacing out the controls (ie. the length of the aft fuselage) has to be even higher stiffness.
5.   Loads on some components will be higher. If it took x-pounds of pull on the elevator horn with a traditional system, it will take x+preload with the pull-pull system. So there’s going to need to be a sweet spot for the tension adjustment. Looser is bad; tighter is broken.
6.   The more work you put into a wire/cable system to eliminate stretch, the more your primary structure is going to have to give to prevent overloading something. In full-scale light planes, the rudder is often actuated by cables. These sometimes have preload springs, and sometimes the preload is supplied by the pilot’s legs.
7.   I have not seen a full-scale aerobatic plane that used cable controls for anything but the rudder. That may have changed with more modern aircraft? A ball bearing supported lightweight pushrod gives great control stiffness with little drag.
8.   I wonder how old-school conventional wisdom would reconcile this: “We can’t use R/C clevises on control line planes because our control loads are higher,” vs. “they are using pull-pull systems on a lot of R/C planes….”

I suspect that a pull-pull system on a control line plane will have some teething problems. If a simple, reliable system was demonstrated, I might reconsider building the great Panther sport-carrier design by Joe Demarco as published in Model Aviation. The high tail and the resulting push-pull cable seemed problematic....

Ahh this is the type of response I was looking for, thanks Dave. There's bit more to consider in the system than I'd first considered, namely the inherent stress from pre-tensioned cables, AND the required minimum radius of the cable. Having a think about such things now, the complexity of having a reliable, slop-free system does seem to outweigh any specific control advantages, if there are any.

This is all a bit academic at the end of the day, truth be told I've been doing a lot of menial work recently, which does allow the mind to ruminate on things like this.

Probably best to let it ruminate on something else!

Greg Kowalski
AUS 36694

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Pull-pull control surfaces.
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2023, 03:29:14 AM »
Greg,

I'm not saying it won't work. I'm just saying that you are trading a known, well-matured system of low-friction pushrods for a different system. The different system can take advantage of much of the R/C parts and knowledge but there are going to be some new issues due to the different application. Except for an installation that would require sharp cable bends, I don't see anything that isn't feasible at first glance.

This leaves us with the typical designer's conundrum: do we go away from the matured system and explore via prototypes a different approach with the hope of a noticeable improvement after maturation? Or do we spend the time and effort on some other kind of improvement? And, the big unknown is whether the teething issues will cause crashes. The way to assess that problem is to consider that the cost function is the probability of each type of incident multiplied by the damage from the incident. For a control system, the potential for catastrophic damage seems pretty high. Which means we have to shoot for very low probability of occurrence or plan on spending way too much time building/rebuilding.

Dave

Offline Robert Zambelli

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Re: Pull-pull control surfaces.
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2023, 06:35:24 AM »
Right on, Dave!
You’ve described what’s known as the Lamborghini approach.
Bob Z.

Offline Curare

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Re: Pull-pull control surfaces.
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2023, 06:23:04 PM »
Exactly, I see it as a risk/reward scenario. If there is a substantial reward to be gained from reinventing the wheel, then the development process is worth the risk (and a phyisical risk to the models in this instance). 

As I see it, the risk is large and the reward is small, so probably not worth the effort of undertaking. We've developed the pushrod/torque horn system to the point where it's practically slop free and bullet-proof, so probably not worth stepping away from.

Still, I can't stop myself from considering all aspects of miniature aircraft design, and no doubt I'll probably pester you guys about other hairbrained schemes in the future.

Greg Kowalski
AUS 36694

Offline Ty Marcucci

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Re: Pull-pull control surfaces.
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2023, 07:02:19 PM »
Waaaayyy back in the olden days, the Victor Stanzel Co. had a Baby V Shark that uses a pull/ pull system..  The lead outs  went to a roller just inside the root, then to a pully mounted under the cowl. that lead to a pull/pull control horn on the elevator. I have a partial fuselage, a kit and keep shaking my head at this system.. It uses heavy button thread, not cable. D>K
Ty Marcucci

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Pull-pull control surfaces.
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2023, 09:07:46 PM »
If you are going to mess with an internal pull-pull cable system that has to go around sharp angles you should consider using Spectra. We did a bit of research on this for an aerospace project. It gave us many more packaging options than stranded steel cable due to the larger pulleys required. The question I have is whether you can forgo the pulleys and use a brass guide tube and (a) keep the friction low enough; and (b) get the life/reliability that you need. For a 1/2A project I wouldn't hesitate to try this, but fair warning, I have built some very unconventional 1/2A's.....

Dave

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Pull-pull control surfaces.
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2023, 09:19:01 PM »
If you are going to mess with an internal pull-pull cable system that has to go around sharp angles you should consider using Spectra. We did a bit of research on this for an aerospace project. It gave us many more packaging options than stranded steel cable due to the larger pulleys required. The question I have is whether you can forgo the pulleys and use a brass guide tube and (a) keep the friction low enough; and (b) get the life/reliability that you need. For a 1/2A project I wouldn't hesitate to try this, but fair warning, I have built some very unconventional 1/2A's.....

Dave
That will work on a flapless system up to about a 20z plane. Over that and I would worry about friction burns on the spectra.  Worth a try.

Ken
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Offline Brad LaPointe

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Re: Pull-pull control surfaces.
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2023, 06:56:19 AM »
The first application of a pull - pull system I witnessed was in Ed Bryze’s big foam combat models. Ed was able to make it work using 90 degree tubing instead of pulleys. The leadouts were connected to the horns on one end and the lines on the other . No slop and very light .

It worked well enough for Ed to win a lot of matches!

Brad

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Pull-pull control surfaces.
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2023, 03:21:01 PM »
Waaaayyy back in the olden days, the Victor Stanzel Co. had a Baby V Shark that uses a pull/ pull system..  The lead outs  went to a roller just inside the root, then to a pully mounted under the cowl. that lead to a pull/pull control horn on the elevator. I have a partial fuselage, a kit and keep shaking my head at this system.. It uses heavy button thread, not cable. D>K

I have a hunch that Stanzel wasn't really serious about that.  He just wanted to avoid royalties and lawsuits from Jim Walker.
Paul Smith

Offline Brent Williams

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Re: Pull-pull control surfaces.
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2023, 03:46:23 PM »
In a world of light, stiff carbon pushrods, for what problem would these pull-pull pushrod arrangements be the proposed solution?  Seems like a fair amount of Rube Goldberg complexity being applied to well solved problems. 
Laser-cut, "Ted Fancher Precision-Pro" Hard Point Handle Kits are available again.  PM for info.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/brent-williams'-fancher-handles-and-cl-parts/ted-fancher's-precision-pro-handle-kit-by-brent-williams-information/

Offline Ty Marcucci

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Re: Pull-pull control surfaces.
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2023, 05:09:21 PM »
Right on Paul.  At least the plans don't say "use your favorite control system"with a big blank space.... LL~
Ty Marcucci

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Pull-pull control surfaces.
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2023, 02:47:28 AM »
.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2023, 08:54:52 PM by Lauri Malila »

Offline M Spencer

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Re: Pull-pull control surfaces.
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2023, 06:54:00 PM »


This original 1952 model was recently recovered , with its pulley / cable control system .

Slacknes , temperature related , is a  issue . Particularly as wood and steel have differant moisture contents .
A bloke here uses wooden push rods . As SOME planes the neutral flap to elevators always shifting ,
with the humidity .
And someone else says using a hardwood pushrod STOPS the differential expansion ,
this gives us a new tree to bark at .  ;D

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=9228

Id think the term ' stunt ' would be nominal .

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