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Author Topic: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster  (Read 1530 times)

Offline Marty Hammersmith

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Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« on: December 30, 2023, 07:24:00 AM »
I'm getting ready to cover my scratch built Sig Akromaster. It will be average weight or slightly more as it will be a full dope finish. It has the extended wing. Power is a ball bearing and baffled piston Veco .19. I'm thinking 9 X 5 prop to start with. How thirsty are these engines? I have a 2oz and modern OS15LA on my kit built Akromaster and the runtime is such that I don't quite fill the tank with 8% nitro 21% oil.
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2023, 08:47:11 AM »
Marty I'd start with about a 9-4.  The VECO .19 bb is really almost too much engine for that airplane.   Keep the needle rich.   I doubt you can find one but I'd almost say 9-3.  I built two of them for the grandkids and do really great on Enya .15s and 52' x .012 lines.

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Offline Marty Hammersmith

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2023, 09:43:28 AM »
Im counting on the Veco 19 to be less power than my OS15LA Akromaster.  I think the Veco power will be fine. It is crossflow, not Schnuerle ported. Im currently flying the OS15LA Akromaster on .015 x 57ft lines. They were intended for a larger ship and supposed to be 60ft but came up short.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2023, 09:54:56 AM »
Im counting on the Veco 19 to be less power than my OS15LA Akromaster.  I think the power will be fine. Im currently flying the OS15LA Akromaster on .015 x 57ft lines. They were intended for a larger ship and supposed to be 60ft but came up short.

    The Veco 19BB is *much more* powerful than the 15LA. You can fly most of the smaller 35-sized airplanes with a Veco 19BB, like Dolphins, Banshees, Twisters, etc, even light Noblers (although there will be other issues with that). It is great overkill for a Ringmaster - the 35-sized version, not the "Jr.". I flew the Skyray 35 with it, it flew that with authority.

    I don't mean to be discouraging, but I do not think this will be a good match for the (1/2A-sized) Akromaster. I am kind of surprised you are not screwing yourself into the ground with the 15LA.

     Brett

Offline Marty Hammersmith

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2023, 10:07:46 AM »
The Sig Akromaster I am building is designed for .15-.19 size engines. The OS15LA flies my kit built 35" wingspan Akromaster very nicely on 8% nitro. I will be very surprised if my Veco .19 has even more power. (I haven't mentioned the venturi inner diameters).

This 39" wingspan Akromaster will have slightly more drag with it's extended wingspan and ever so slightly fattened airfoil. I guess we will find out if the Veco is too much.  LL~

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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2023, 10:25:54 AM »
The Sig Akromaster I am building is designed for .15-.19 size engines. The OS15LA flies my kit built 35" wingspan Akromaster very nicely on 8% nitro. I will be very surprised if my Veco .19 has even more power. (I haven't mentioned the venturi inner diameters).

   It was designed for 15-19 engines of the 60s, that is, Max I/II/III .15, OS-20S (not FP!), McCoy 19 Redhead, etc. which were rather feeble. Not 15-19 engines from the 2020s, or the really hot 15s of the 60's.  The Veco 19BB is a wild exception, stock, it is nearly as powerful as a 20FP. I would guess maybe twice the power of a McCoy 19, anything other changes aside, that will be about 25% faster.

     Most good 1/2A stunt planes are around 220-270 square inches, the (stock) Akromaster is 250. This is a reflection of the 15-sized engines of the day - it's small because of the weak power, but is built much more sturdily than most 1/2As to take the vibration.

  I strongly suggest starting with a 9-4, 10-4, or 10-3 to keep the speed in the subsonic range. That will reduce the need to try to needle it down, or a tiny venturi.

     Your decision, of course, and if you start modifying things, you can some up with something workable. Since we did the small engine experiments for the last 30ish years, I know what the likely issues are going to be.

    Brett


Offline Marty Hammersmith

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2023, 10:33:12 AM »
Leave it to me to find the exception. lol.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2023, 11:11:03 AM »
Leave it to me to find the exception. lol.

  The Veco 19BB is a *great* engine, one of the very few that can come close to a modern 20. I think you could find a much better use for it, like a Skyray 35, which will be generally a much better airplane overall.

    But I note that it is the super-hot-rod of its day, and it still can't match a low-ball economy engine from the 90s, the OS-20FP ABC, and engine once commonly available for a mere $47. There are much, much more powerful 20s used for RC cars, Picco, other OS car/"buggy" engines, and many 15s that are much more powerful than a Veco 19BB.

     I would guess the Akromaster kit came out in the late 60's/early 70's, when a Max III 15 was a typical engine for it. That's the problem with specifying it by engine size, a "15" could mean anything from a Enya 15 baffle-piston engine not much stronger than a Tee Dee 049  to a Fora 15 F2D engine that is putting out more actual power than a piped PA 75 in a typical stunt application.

   So, I think you might have some problem keeping the speed in check. I have flown a full-size Ringmaster (370 square inches) with a Veco 19bb/10-5, the first flight was something around 3.0 seconds a lap on 60 foot lines. The wings were probably pulling in 3-4 inches of dihedral in the round loops, or at least for the short periods I saw the airplane well enough to tell. We got a 10-4 for the second flight, that bumped it down to about 3.5. Similar results with the "20-point" Ringmaster, which is the box art picture for the RSM Ringmaster kit, 4.2 seconds a lap with a 9-4 APC. We switched to a 20FP, same prop - and it went down to 3.8 seconds/lap.

     Brett

Offline Colin McRae

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2023, 11:30:29 AM »
Marty I'd start with about a 9-4.  The VECO .19 bb is really almost too much engine for that airplane.   Keep the needle rich.   I doubt you can find one but I'd almost say 9-3.  I built two of them for the grandkids and do really great on Enya .15s and 52' x .012 lines.

Dave

APC does make a 9-3 prop. And Brodak sells a BY&O design wide airfoil 9-3.

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2023, 05:21:04 PM »
Marty, I'm guessing you refer to the Veco Series 100 .19, considerably older than the .19BB engine.  The Akromaster was designed around the Fox 15X if I'm not mistaken, and word has it the airplane flies quite well with that power.

I have to agree with Brett's comments on the 19BB - I had a Brodak ARF Super Clown with that engine and it was really more power than needed on 52' lines.

The true test will be putting yours in the air.  Good luck, have fun!

Dennis


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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2023, 05:27:08 PM »
Marty, I'm guessing you refer to the Veco Series 100 .19, considerably older than the .19BB engine. 

   He said it was a ball-bearing engine.  But even the series 100 (plain-bearing) was a pretty hot FF engine.

      Brett

Offline Motorman

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2023, 05:36:22 PM »
Wouldn't the Veco 19bb be tremendous nose weight on an Akromaster.

 

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2023, 05:43:25 PM »
Wouldn't the Veco 19bb be tremendous nose weight on an Akromaster.

  Yes, that too. And I will note that it is absolutely ear-splitting without a muffler, so you don't want to be leaving that off.

     Brett

Offline Marty Hammersmith

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2023, 06:31:54 PM »
Wouldn't the Veco 19bb be tremendous nose weight on an Akromaster.

OS15la with muffler is 6.37oz. Veco 19bb with no muffler is 6.3oz. I just weighed the Veco. I got the OS weight from Horizon website as my OS15la is mounted. Not worried about the noise.





« Last Edit: December 30, 2023, 07:13:43 PM by Marty Hammersmith »
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Offline Chris Brainard

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2023, 09:18:10 PM »
I live west of Denver. Our flying field is 6000 elevation, which means thin air and loss of power. My Veco .19 with a tongue muffler had no problem flying my 32 oz. (430 sq. inches) Fancy Pants on 10/22 fuel and an APC 10-4 prop (60’ .012” lines). The .19 replaced an OS.35S on that model. I also built a kit SIG Akromaster which was powered with a TeeDee .09. Brett knows what he’s talking about when he points out that the Veco .19 was not comparable to other .19’s of that era.

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2023, 09:56:38 PM »
We run the Veco Series 100 plain bearing .19 all the time on our trainers.  My prop of choice is an 8-4.  The light load of the 8" prop makes the needle easy to set.  Hauls .015 lines, no problem, though I'd use .012 if the lines were treated more carefully.  The metallurgy of your engine calls for some oil, btw.  I'd say minimum oil 20% total, with some castor.

Peter 

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2023, 09:56:51 PM »
 Marty,

 You would be very wise to listen to Brett on this one, the BB Veco .19 is a lot more powerful than you're thinking and would be serious overkill for an Akromaster. I don't think you'd even be able to "slow it down" enough to have a comfortable and happy combination. It's true that back in it's day a lot of guys ran them on .35 size designs with great success. An LA or FP.15 would be great on an Akromaster, even with your stretched wing.
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2023, 06:24:32 PM »
I'd suggest looking at Bob Baron's "Humbug" article (AMA plans service...you might be able to read the text without buying the plan). My recollection is that he used an 8-5 prop, but while I don't think he specified brand, my guess would be Rev-Up or possibly a reworked paddle blade Top Flite. Both tend to be lower pitch than stated.  H^^ Steve

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Offline Marty Hammersmith

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2024, 03:29:12 PM »
So, what about the second part of my question? How thirsty is a Veco .19? Can I still run a 2oz tank?
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2024, 04:06:58 PM »
So, what about the second part of my question? How thirsty is a Veco .19? Can I still run a 2oz tank?

  Depends on how long you need it to fly. I would guess more like 3.5 ounces for a full AMA stunt pattern, but I don't know for sure since I didn't pay much attention to the run duration when I was testing it - 30 years ago. The engine is powerful but it's still baffle-piston, it's tossing a fair bit of the fuel out the exhaust.

     Brett

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2024, 04:11:59 PM »
So, what about the second part of my question? How thirsty is a Veco .19? Can I still run a 2oz tank?
Oh sure.  Two ounces should run at least 6 minutes unless the venturi is unusually large in which case it will be even faster.  You may consider sleeving down the venturi some with some telescoping aluminum tubing as a means to tame the engine.  That will also extend your mileage. 

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Offline Motorman

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2024, 04:13:45 PM »
I had a Veco 19 on a ringmaster 9-4 apc with a 3oz tank .015x60 and mine had a muffler. Had to run it flat rich to make it work but it would buzz a little two stroke straight overhead sometimes. Power was no problem, Veco 19bb is a torque monster. We use to put those on Flying Clowns for racing.

MM 8)

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2024, 08:06:40 PM »
  You may consider sleeving down the venturi some with some telescoping aluminum tubing as a means to tame the engine. 

 Or keep it simple, put it back on the shelf and run your .15.


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Offline Marty Hammersmith

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2024, 02:45:48 PM »
     I maidened my new scratch built Veco .19 powered Akromaster today. No offense guys but the Veco .19 is awesome on this airplane! It tunes so easily and has a very wide needle making it easy to adjust the power and lap time while maintaining a predictable 4-2-4. I'm running 8% nitro and a 10 X 4 Master Airscrew propeller. It definitely has the ability to be more power than this airframe needs but it's not the catastrophe I was lead to believe it would be. It also balanced right on and the noise was not out of line at all. Lines are 57ft .015".
After 4 flights, it's a keeper!

I don't think I have mentioned this before, my Veco .19BB is converted from R/C.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2024, 04:08:12 PM »
     I maidened my new scratch built Veco .19 powered Akromaster today. No offense guys but the Veco .19 is awesome on this airplane! It tunes so easily and has a very wide needle making it easy to adjust the power and lap time while maintaining a predictable 4-2-4. I'm running 8% nitro and a 10 X 4 Master Airscrew propeller. It definitely has the ability to be more power than this airframe needs but it's not the catastrophe I was lead to believe it would be.

  Until it takes off lean.

  Brett

   

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2024, 04:16:24 PM »
 
  Until it takes off lean.

  Brett

   
LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~  I thought the same thing about mu OS46FX until IT took off lean.

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Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2024, 06:45:45 PM »
  Until it takes off lean.

  Brett

 

Sort of like my Ringmaster on Tuesday that went lean, it has a Enya 45 on it with small venturi and stack muffler . Was running it normal tame relaxed rich run suddenly went lean and speed up but then got so hot and it was nearly falling out of the sky so I slowed it down with some violent turns and put it down but when the prop touched the ground it spit off the spinner prop nut etc and went into a shaft run but was already so hot the engine just stopped and the model rolled to a gently stop. Turned out the uniflow brass vent tube in the tank had broken off and was rolling around inside the tank.

Regards Gerald

PS My brother had a Ackromaster with a PAW 19 diesel which went well 30 years ago.

Online John Skukalek

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2024, 07:44:19 PM »
Did the overheating of your Enya 45 damage it Gerald?

Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2024, 04:10:32 AM »
Did the overheating of your Enya 45 damage it Gerald?


Hi John Looks like the Enya survived as the compression/feel is still the same but the head did burn some castor on. I have learnt not to hang about and land them when something goes wrong, just got to slow the model down as much as you can beforehand and hope you only break the prop or landing gear.

Online John Skukalek

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2024, 07:53:13 AM »
makes sense Gerald

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2024, 08:40:45 AM »
Marty,
So like you have a good setup. One thing you could go to 0.012" diameter SS cable and be just fine, take some tip weigh out. Maybe try the 9 to 9 1/2 x 4 ish APC prop in the 2-2-2 and see how you like it.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Marty Hammersmith

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Re: Prop suggestion for Veco 19 Akromaster
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2024, 09:13:18 AM »
Marty,
So like you have a good setup. One thing you could go to 0.012" diameter SS cable and be just fine, take some tip weigh out. Maybe try the 9 to 9 1/2 x 4 ish APC prop in the 2-2-2 and see how you like it.

Best,   DennisT

Yeah. Thanks Dennis. I understand about the lines. I just happened to have 57ft .015 cables sitting here. I do intend to drop to .012 but my existing lines are 50ft.
Marty Hammersmith
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