Pre-made 7 Strand SS flying line Question

[UPS 767]

I am getting back into the hobby after a 35 yr absence, so I am buying much needed flying tools, etc.
I recently ordered some pre-made SS .018 x 60 ft lines and have a question?
The lines are crimped, but they have a circle the size of a nickle of extra cable looped at the crimp ? See 1st photo.
I remember back in the old days the lines coming crimped, but without the nickle size loop of wire. See 2nd photo.
Even the instructions that come with flying lines that I would have to assemble/crimp shows everything snugged up without the loop. See 3rd photo
What am I missing here ?
Thanks

[Dave_Trible]

That is really poor workmanship,  likely from a worker who has no interest nor understanding of what they do.  My main concern would be the lines getting snagged with each other while flying.  The crimps don't really have a great track record for safety these days.  I'd just snip the ends off and do a re-wrap with fine copper wire-no crimp.  THEN use model cement or even dope applied to the wraps to keep them from unravelling.  Some use shrink tubing.   To use solder or even epoxy creates a hard spot that will enable cable strand breakage to occur right where the epoxy stops.  The AMA rule book shows the best wrapping method.  Maybe someone will paste it up here-I'm not savvy enough to do that.

Dave

Also you should be able to reused the eyelets you have there.

[Jim Svitko]

I never trusted crimped lines.

During a pull test, I saw a crimped connection fail.  I have never seen a wrapped connection fail, even if the wrapping was not very good.

You are better off getting the lines and thimbles separately and cutting to the length you need.  Then wrap per AMA recommendation.

[Colin McRae]

I agree those Sullivan lines are poorly made up and may tangle during flight and possibly cause a crash. The big loops probably won't be a problem at the handle end, but I would be more concerned with the model end where they are relatively close together.

I know guys that have used crimped lines for years and years with no issues. My understanding is that if the lines are crimped with extreme force the lines can be weakened or damaged (just can't see the damage under the sleeve). It should be a good and secure crimp, just not overly squeezed too hard with excessive force.

But I agree that tied lines are better and what most experienced pilots use. Not hard to make up with a little practice.

Something else you might consider is to try Spectra lines. PowerPro Spectra is a type of high strength fishing line that I have used. It is OK to use per the AMA. 65# test line is OK to use for models up to 60 oz and 40 size engines.

If interested there is a post called Adventures in Spectra with lots of good info in how to make up the lines. Also, lower cost.

[Dan McEntee]

  I have lost three models due to factory crimped lines breaking at the handle and that was enough for me!! These were Sullivan brand. i just would not use them at all. Good reason and time to learn how to wrap lines as per the AMA rule book. If you do not have the proper crimping tools, and more importantly I think, proper crimp ferules, wrapping just makes sense. Or as mentioned already, look into the new fishing lines.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Brett Buck]

I am getting back into the hobby after a 35 yr absence, so I am buying much needed flying tools, etc.
I recently ordered some pre-made SS .018 x 60 ft lines and have a question?
The lines are crimped, but they have a circle the size of a nickle of extra cable looped at the crimp ? See 1st photo.
I remember back in the old days the lines coming crimped, but without the nickle size loop of wire. See 2nd photo.
Even the instructions that come with flying lines that I would have to assemble/crimp shows everything snugged up without the loop. See 3rd photo
What am I missing here ?
Thanks

  That is some poor-quality work and I would at least send Sullivan an email about that, even if you (as you should) go ahead and fix it yourself. They may not care, but they also might not know about it, and given the very limited market they can't afford to lose their otherwise pretty-good reputation among such a small group .

     Brett

[Ken Culbertson]

Are they Sullivan?   The Ukraine lines came that way for a while.  I was testing his new 3 strand and what he sent was wrapped with the big loop.  He had a reason, but I forgot what it was. Your loop is much bigger.  I told him that most of us would not use them that way.  They also sell 7 strand steel on Amazon.

Bottom line - rewrap them.

Ken

Sorry, I missed the 2nd picture, they are Sullivan.  Did you get them on Ebay?  Maybe they were a kit that somebody assembled wrong getting passed off as new.  Those are not factory crimps.  Don't use them!

Wrong again, Colin's post shows that they are factory crimps.  Sullivan must have new owners because that is crap.

[Colin McRae]

  That is some poor-quality work and I would at least send Sullivan an email about that, even if you (as you should) go ahead and fix it yourself. They may not care, but they also might not know about it, and given the very limited market they can't afford to lose their otherwise pretty-good reputation among such a small group .

     Brett

It is poor quality, but not a one-off. The big loop is how Sullivan makes up the lines. Not good. See link to the Sullivan website.

https://sullivanproducts.com/product/cont-lineinst-018d-x-2-60u/

[UPS 767]

For what it's worth, the supplier has bent over backwards trying to rectify/get me the correct lines.
Just thought I may be missing a possible reason for the loops. Already decided to wrap my lines.
 Thanks everyone for the input.

[Brett Buck]

It is poor quality, but not a one-off. The big loop is how Sullivan makes up the lines. Not good. See link to the Sullivan website.

https://sullivanproducts.com/product/cont-lineinst-018d-x-2-60u/

    OH, i am sure whatever contractor Sullivan got to make them did it on purpose. If nothing else, they used to do this differently, without looping around the tube at all, so something has changed. That doesn't mean that the customer service or whoever is running it is aware that it is like this, and/or that it is a problem. So a line of caution is worth 30 seconds to send an email.

    You have to remember that the people in charge may have never seen a control-line model fly, how it works, or at least not seen it enough to know that this is clearly unacceptable.

      Brett

[Jim Svitko]

Many do not realize what it takes to do something properly, regarding our hobby.  Some only sell things to us.  Others might dabble in actually building and flying, but, luckily, have not experienced a disaster due to a faulty component.

You will never regret doing something right, the first time.  You will always look back and remember the time when you cut corners and it cost you, big time.

No crimping on the leadouts, either.

[Fred Cronenwett]

The wrapped line ends are best way to terminate the ends. Also remember that the health of your lines will determine the condition of your model after the flight is done. That line wrap from the reel is not what I would call acceptable. I buy my flying line on a bulk roll and create my own set of lines.

https://www.mbsmodelsupply.com/





Fred

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

That's a good video on wrapping, though I find the jig not required.  I'm comfortable holding the lines with my non-dominant hand while wrapping with the other.

Wow, great chorus of "wrap your lines."  There is plenty of enthusiasm here to get everyone flying.

Question:  Why .018?  Seems a bit heavy for a stunter.  I'm fine with .015 from MBS.

Peter

[UPS 767]

Being new I used mfg recommend chart.

[UPS 767]

FYI- although this chart for line size has Brodaks name on it,
that is not where the lines came from.

[Ken Culbertson]

Do yourself a favor.  If you are not heavily invested yet in steel lines yet use Spectra.  100Lb. test spectra lines are thinner, lighter and 2 1/2 times stronger that .018 steel.  65 or 85lb is still stronger if you are not flying something over 65oz.  The stretch is about the same once they are conditioned.  Basically, they fly the same or slightly better than steel.

Ken

[Dan McEntee]

Being new I used mfg recommend chart.

     It used to be that anything over .40 displacement required .018" lines. When the .40 tuned pipe with it's increased performance came into being, there was some concern that .015" wasn't adequate for that, but I don't recall any major problems or any other changes in the rules at that time. These days, it's just model weight and pull test requirements. The rise of the electric power plants made way for a big change in the rule book that actually favored internal combustion, I think. I also ways flew my ST.51 powered Shark.45 with .018" as per the then current rules, but by today's rule, it's light enough that I could fly it on .015" or similar Spectra lines.  That chart will get you air borne but really isn't relevant for best performance. Your original post doesn't say what model or engine you are working with, but I'm guessing it's something along the profile .40 type stunt model? You can fly it on those lines, but you will notice less line drag with .015" or the appropriate Spectra lines.
 
   To quote Sgt John McClane, 'Welcome to the party , pal!!"

    Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Paul Smith]

This all comes back to the tradeoff of safety vs the improved performance of marginal lines.

The "rock on a string" formula does not include the downwind forces on the fuselage.

If subscribe to  "anything that passes the pull test", you better do to pull test.

[Brett Buck]

This all comes back to the tradeoff of safety vs the improved performance of marginal lines.

The "rock on a string" formula does not include the downwind forces on the fuselage.

  Right, because those are generally small to infinitesimal.

     Brett

[Howard Rush]

Sullivan lines historically were way too long. Be sure to measure the lines before putting new ends on them.

[Brett Buck]

Sullivan lines historically were way too long. Be sure to measure the lines before putting new ends on them.

  That, too. I almost bought the farm at a contest in Lodi when someone went to fly on Sullivan ".015x60" pre-made lines. They warned on the package that the lines themselves were 58', to line up the fuselage at 60. Guy takes off and starts around the circle, I am watching and it goes *far behind my head" while I dove out of the way. Actual length was about 85-90' and the guy had been flying with them and wondering why his airplane was so hard to control.

     I have been around for a surprising number of incidents where someone either got hit, or had a very close call. I can think of about 5 of them right off the bat.

     Brett

[Dan McEntee]

  That, too. I almost bought the farm at a contest in Lodi when someone went to fly on Sullivan ".015x60" pre-made lines. They warned on the package that the lines themselves were 58', to line up the fuselage at 60. Guy takes off and starts around the circle, I am watching and it goes *far behind my head" while I dove out of the way. Actual length was about 85-90' and the guy had been flying with them and wondering why his airplane was so hard to control.

     I have been around for a surprising number of incidents where someone either got hit, or had a very close call. I can think of about 5 of them right off the bat.

     Brett

       I got to the SIG contest site one Friday afternoon like usual, hopped out to stretch my legs and found Gretz and Pratt at the main circle where the Expert class usually flew. The circles were on the grass runway at SIG Field behind Hazel and Maxey's house. The circles were seperated from the pit's/set up area by a short plastic snow fence. There was about 3 feet, maybe more between the snow fence and the chalk line for the circle. This was more than enough room for 70 foot lines  of the typical handle to model center line variety. They were helping a new guy with a Magnum. He had his lines from the center of the circle ( we thought!) to the modle, hooked up, fuels up, started up and took off. We still had not noticed where he was standing. The guy greased a nice takeoff, and the model came around and as Brett describes, we could tell in the nick or time the airplane was now BEHIND us !! We all hit the deck and rolled off the circle after he over flew us. We waved him back away from the snow fence, and he could tell something was wrong as the model wasn't flying correctly and just flew the tank out and landed. We aske him how long his lines were and he said "70 feet!. I just bought the lines from the hobby shop trailer and made them up!"  SIG never sold premade lines as far as I can remember other than Sullivan. SIG lines were a kit that you had to make up. He showed us the packaging and it was for 70 foot lines but they give you about 75 feet of cable in the package at that time. He just terminated the ends and headed to the circle!! He really didn't know he was supposed to measure them , nor that the rule was 70 feet from handle to model center line. I have seen a few others at out field over the years that started to set up a model and could tell from where the model and handle was that they were too long and asked them to measure. That was back in the days where the trend was to fly on long lines right up to the limit. !00 foot tapes measures are not that expensive and if you fly a lot or fly competition you need to know where they stad in over all length.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee 

[Ken Culbertson]

Line length is important to me.  If I am holding it is a guess if I will be able to get up and out fast enough.  Most of my crowd can tell you to the inch how long their lines are.  In all the years I have been doing this I don't think I have ever seen lines measured at a contest.  I flew some large .40 size planes on 70' back when that was popular and I just bought SIG kits.  I will bet I was actually flying on 72 or 73.  All of my lines are 65' e2e.  Simpler that way. What you learn here about what you thought you knew, amazing.

Ken

[Fred Cronenwett]

I have models that use solids and braided lines. the smallest set of lines I use on a regular basis are .015 diameter, the largest is .024 diameter. The line diameter is based upon the weight of the model. So when I fly the 14 lb B-29 that flies on .024 wires it because it pulls at least 30 lbs during the flight. My small model with a .35 size engine flies with .015 lines, as they get heavier the line diameter gets larger.

My line wrapping tool might be overkill but I don't have to hold the line material in my hand. that way I can control the quality of the line wrap.

Invest in a 100' tape measure, I have mine in the line wrapping kit. Always measure your line length. Cut long and then you trim them shorter if needed.

Fred

[john e. holliday]

Ken, you have not been to the VSC(Vintage Stunt Championships).  They measure length and diameter plus pull test before each flight.  At least all that I attended.

[Trostle]

Ken, you have not been to the VSC(Vintage Stunt Championships).  They measure length and diameter plus pull test before each flight.  At least all that I attended.

There are no longer any diameter requirements in the AMA rules for CL Aerobatics.  From the AMA rule book for CL Precision Aerobatics:

Paragraph 4.1: "There are no requirements for specific materials, construction, test ratings, or dimensions for CL Aerobatics lines.  The minimum line length shall be 25 feet, and maximum line length shall be 70 feet, as measured from the grip of the handle to the center of the fuselage."

Keith

[Ken Culbertson]

 

Ken, you have not been to the VSC(Vintage Stunt Championships).  They measure length and diameter plus pull test before each flight.  At least all that I attended.

Never been to the real one, I am pretty much stuck in one place by life's twists and turns.  But we hold an informal one every week.  How old do you have to be to qualify as "Vintage"?   

Ken