Post your displeasure on this matter to AMA

[RC Storick]

My post on the AMA forum http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/amagov/2015/12/14/ama-and-the-faa-registration-process/#comment-3304 posted here in case its not approved for view. Censorship at it's finest. The posts need approval before posting. If they agree they post.

Robert Storick December 15, 2015 at 11:23
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
We are discussing this mater of control line right now on http://www.stunthanger.com and the 4500 members there are 95% in the thinking this is overreach for something that is not in the US airspace. My feeling this is nothing but a money grab. $5 this time $25 next time and so on.

How will they identify a near miss from a drone when is speeding past a aircraft at 300 MPH and the number is less than 1/2 inch tall? This is going to be a super problem that we should have been detached from, from the beginning.

The control line community is not pleased in general with another fee for toy airplanes.

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[Mike Griffin]

Great comment Robert.  Let's see if they approve it. 

Mike

[RC Storick]

My vote is to lobby their Butt out if they don't fix this. We should have not been lumped into the drone community from the start. Modelers have a long history in the US airspace with few incidents where drones have but a minute and every millisecond of that minute is a close call of some sort.

[Garf]

My Email reply from the AMA said that C/L is not involved. If this turns out otherwise, we will know all we need to know about the AMA.

[Mike Griffin]

Phil I hope that is true but when you have the DOT and FAA also involved, anything is possible.

Mike

[peabody]

Sparky....do you read any of the FAA stuff? The AMA got shut out.....they are unhappy with the ruling themselves.....why clutter up their space? If you vote, let your Senators and Representative know how you feel.

The AMA is NOT our enemy here.....and the crap about "control line community" doesn't mean a rat's a** when the CL community only represents 5% of their membership.....the RC guys are REALLY upset....

Quit the AMA and your voice does not deserve to be heard.....

[RC Storick]

Sparky....do you read any of the FAA stuff? The AMA got shut out.....they are unhappy with the ruling themselves.....why clutter up their space? If you vote, let your Senators and Representative know how you feel.

The AMA is NOT our enemy here.....and the crap about "control line community" doesn't mean a rat's a** when the CL community only represents 5% of their membership.....the RC guys are REALLY upset....

Quit the AMA and your voice does not deserve to be heard.....

Rich in my opinion the AMA lets us down at the very start of the drone epidemic with not realizing these people are not modelers. They were only in it for the advertising revenue. Sense when does the FAA over ride congress. I guess the wheel didn't squeak loud enough.

[peabody]

They may not be modelers by your definition, but there are some really high tech drones out there that are marvels of engineering....

The AMA spent a TON of money last year trying to make sensible talk to the FAA/Homeland Security folks.....to argue at that time that CL was a different animal would have been folly....

[RC Storick]

They may not be modelers by your definition, but there are some really high tech drones out there that are marvels of engineering....

The AMA spent a TON of money last year trying to make sensible talk to the FAA/Homeland Security folks.....to argue at that time that CL was a different animal would have been folly....

You missed my point. Had the AMA distanced it's self from drones there would have been no need to talk to the FAA at all biased on the AMA past safety record. IMHO all they saw was advertising dollars. So now we have to figure out how to get out of the mess we were drug into without a vote.

[Robert Zambelli]

Didn't the ama president state that drones were the future of model aviation?

I guess that all our dues will go to supporting drones and paying for their (potential) lawsuits.

  Bob Z.

[peabody]

No Spark....you missed my point.....months ago.
Chuck Schumer or Mitch McConnell no not the difference between a CL model, an RC plane, an RC Heli or a drone....ESPECIALLY when talking about load (read bomb) carrying capacity.....
They worked hard to try to educate to no avail.....(not enough money, I guess).....and I am certain that they are continuing to educate legislators...

They are our ONLY voice

[beercamel]

My Email reply from the AMA said that C/L is not involved. If this turns out otherwise, we will know all we need to know about the AMA.

Garf,

 As incompetent as the AMA is.. this is NOT their fault..  Its the Federal Governments fault.. the FAA in particular..

VM

[RC Storick]

If registration were only about knowing who owned the aircraft the AMA number should have been enough but its not about that. it's about putting everyone in a database and charging you do do so.

[peabody]

The AMA is working on being able to use your AMA number as your Federal ID....so far, the Feds want to do it apart.
The AMA doesn't get the $5.00
And, I wager, registering someone for ANYTHING Federally costs more than $5.00.....

[RC Storick]

The AMA is working on being able to use your AMA number as your Federal ID....so far, the Feds want to do it apart.
The AMA doesn't get the $5.00
And, I wager, registering someone for ANYTHING Federally costs more than $5.00.....

I told the story abut the Juke box registration and this is the same $5 this time $25 next time and so on. Your SSN would be fine and everyone has one for free.

[Jim Dincau]

Your SSN would be fine and everyone has one for free.

I go to a lot of trouble not to expose my SSN to public view. I certainly don't want to put it on my airplanes.

[Jim Carter]

You guys are getting wrapped around the proverbial axle for nuttin"!!   It's no big deal!!   No big deal at all!!   If we as modelers participate en' masse',  it'll flood their computerized sign-in system (like the National Healthcare registration), then it will become unmanageable, too costly and unprofitable as did the requirement to register for CB radios!  And .... if all it takes is $5 to screw up an already perfectly "screwed up system" .... I'm up for a cheap laugh!!  Probably, within 3 - 5 years the Liberal of the ACLU will partner with the cut/cut REPUBLICANS calling it "a big government intrusion on civil liberties" and a threat to the 1st, 8th and 9th Amendments, then call for budget cuts and thereby eliminate the funding for the program with all its new, fancy, hi-tech equipment and it too will end up as a wild and weird memory of democracy at work!  R.O.T.F.L.M.B.O.!!  

[RC Storick]

They must be getting hammered as the rss feed is down.

[peabody]

The release today expressed their displeasure....I reached out to Rick to see if he felt that CL had to register.....he hasn't gotten back.

[Paul Smith]

We should just define model airplanes as WEAPONS and join the NRA. They do a good job of staving off the feds.

[wwwarbird]

You missed my point. Had the AMA distanced it's self from drones there would have been no need to talk to the FAA at all biased on the AMA past safety record. IMHO all they saw was advertising dollars. So now we have to figure out how to get out of the mess we were drug into without a vote.

 Exactly what I've been saying all along, the AMA should have been wise enough to create clear and definite separation from the drone community RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING. However, their all out greed far outweighed any common sense and/or their loyalty to the modelers who have supported the organization from it's inception. Any idiot should have been able to see this problem coming LONG ago.

[wwwarbird]

Didn't the ama president state that drones were the future of model aviation?

 Yes, he did:

 http://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/from-your-ama-president/

[wwwarbird]

Rich in my opinion the AMA lets us down at the very start of the drone epidemic with not realizing these people are not modelers. They were only in it for the advertising revenue.

 Precisely folks.  

 I held off on adding this here until now, but here is the letter that I sent the directly to the "President" after reading his November regurgitation...


Hello Mr. Brown,

 

 I am a 51 year old lifelong flying model builder/enthusiast, and am also a paying AMA member. As you know, the hot topic and debate for a time now has been drones and/or quadcopters and their relevance to model aviation. For quite some time the AMA's blatantly clear, continued, and expanding support of these flying toys has also had me debating my continued support of the AMA. Make no mistake, drones and quadcopters are not MODELS and they are and will continue to be a detriment to model aviation.

 

 When the drones first came on the scene I had (foolishly) hoped that the AMA, our Academy of MODEL Aeronautics, would find a way to quickly and wisely separate themselves from these flying toys (protecting the true model aviation enthusiasts and the heritage thereof) which is a large part of what we AMA members assume we're paying for. All this while I've also assumed that what would actually happen is that the AMA would quickly toss their MODELING heritage, history, pride and honorability aside and quickly whore themselves out to the drone market. Sadly, this is precisely what has happened.

 

 With all that being said, I felt compelled to let you know that the comments made in your November 2015 editorial absolutely disgust me and prove the thoughts that I have gradually developed about the AMA. Those comments are, and I quote your column:

 

   "I recently spent time with quite a few drone pilots. Their focus on electronics and computers is apparent, but these pilots are enjoyable company and represent the future of model aviation."

 

 -Bob Brown

 

 I ask you to please sit and honestly think about the organization that you represent, the Academy of MODEL Aeronautics. Maybe even look in the mirror while doing so. As our AMA President I feel you should be ashamed of yourself, your above endorsements do nothing to preserve or promote MODEL aviation. As it all stands your comments and view of the "future" have ended my debate and made my decision, I will not be renewing in 2016.

 

 Regretfully,

 

 Wayne Willey

 Albert Lea, MN


 


 

[Mike Griffin]

Well said Wayne.

Mike

[wwwarbird]

Well said Wayne.

Mike

 Yeah, and oddly, I haven't gotten a reply from Mr. Brownhole yet either.

[Mike Griffin]

You probably won't Wayne.  Maybe, but I doubt it...

Mike

[Ted Fancher]

They may not be modelers by your definition, but there are some really high tech drones out there that are marvels of engineering....

The AMA spent a TON of money last year trying to make sensible talk to the FAA/Homeland Security folks.....to argue at that time that CL was a different animal would have been folly....

Rich,

The CLPA "community" threw away our right to bitch about non-modeler small airplane fliers when we jumped on the ARF/RTF bandwagon.  When we decided anyone should be able to  march into a store and plop down some $$$ to become an overnight "model" airplane flier just like George Aldrich, Billy Werwage and Al Rabe we gave away our ability to successfully separate ourselves from what we are now inheriting.  Pretty much why today's remotely guided "sport RPV flier" as opposed to "our heretofore model builder and flier" are indistinguishable by the person on the street...or in the Congress.

Our only hope, as I see it, is to find somebody willing to listen long enough that he/she understands the reality that, when disconnected from their tether, our drones are no longer controllable from the ground.  The response, of course, will most likely be..."you mean they're 'out of control'!!!  We've got to pass a law outlawing those control line drones entirely."

Ted

[Brett Buck]

Rich,

The CLPA "community" threw away our right to bitch about non-modeler small airplane fliers when we jumped on the ARF/RTF bandwagon.  When we decided anyone should be able to  march into a store and plop down some $$$ to become an overnight "model" airplane flier just like George Aldrich, Billy Werwage and Al Rabe we gave away our ability to successfully separate ourselves from what we are now inheriting.  Pretty much why today's remotely guided "sport RPV flier" as opposed to "our heretofore model builder and flier" are indistinguishable by the person on the street...or in the Congress.

   Of course, we agree on the "ARF culture" bit, although, this threshold was crossed for model aviation in general long before CL, and would have resulted in the same issue whether CL ARFs existed.

   An interesting point is that Congress appears to have exempted us from FAA control and this regulation appears to violate that. I have asked the AMA to respond on whether or not they plan to file for a restraining order on that basis.

    Brett

[Scott Richlen]

Brett:

Congress may or may not have exempted us from FAA control.  You'll need a lawyer, experienced in government law-making, to tell you.  Everything that Congress enacts is supposedly "law".  However, a lot of "law" is feel-good stuff that the Congressmen pass just to please someone or to get a group off of his back: "See, I did something.  That's all I can do.  Now, please go away."  But it has no real effect.

Sorry.

One (not the only) problem with this is that AMA was over it's head from the beginning and still, apparently, doesn't realize it.

[john e. holliday]

Well I got another E-Mail from the AMA.  Went to the site to read more.  I would still be there reading until I got to the replies about control line.  I left my comments which will probably be never read like most of the replies by who ever it is at AMA.   And ater all these years of being a member, since 1956,  2016 may be my last year.  I can go fly my CL planes when I want at a designated site with no problems.   Even using ball diamonds that have no lights can be used until local law enforcement says I can't.   

[Brett Buck]

Brett:

Congress may or may not have exempted us from FAA control.  You'll need a lawyer, experienced in government law-making, to tell you.  Everything that Congress enacts is supposedly "law".  However, a lot of "law" is feel-good stuff that the Congressmen pass just to please someone or to get a group off of his back: "See, I did something.  That's all I can do.  Now, please go away."  But it has no real effect.

Sorry.

One (not the only) problem with this is that AMA was over it's head from the beginning and still, apparently, doesn't realize it.

  Oh, I understand that perfectly well. But, the most obvious and clear basis of any challenge is to use the law passed that was intended to preclude exactly what is happening now.

  BTW, I predict that if the AMA does not challenge this in court, the AMA is very unlikely to exist in its current form in a few years. And I wouldn't put a lot of money on Bob Brown's future in AMA politics.

   Brett

[Terry Caron]

I go to a lot of trouble not to expose my SSN to public view. I certainly don't want to put it on my airplanes.

My apologies to the OP for the sidebar.

Late to this discussion, but I'll point out that SSN refers to one's Social Security ACCOUNT Number (as printed on my original 40+ year old card), similar to one's *bank account number*.
How many would publicize that?

As an aside, while it may have been changed, I believe the original law specified (as also printed on my original 40+ year old card) that it is "For Social Security and Tax Purposes Only - Not for Identification".
If that hasn't been changed by law, there's a lot of crime being perpetrated in commerce these days.
Not that there otherwise isn't. 

Terry

[Mike Griffin]

  "BTW, I predict that if the AMA does not challenge this in court, the AMA is very unlikely to exist in its current form in a few years. And I wouldn't put a lot of money on Bob Brown's future in AMA politics. "

Brett I made almost the exact same statement to a friend of mine today except I went a little further, I said I did not think they would be around period.  As far as Bob Brown is concerned, I think he is toast.

Mike

[Mike Griffin]

Sparky, I made a post on there today expressing my thoughts as well.  

Mike

[RC Storick]

As an aside, while it may have been changed, I believe the original law specified (as also printed on my original 40+ year old card) that it is "For Social Security and Tax Purposes Only - Not for Identification".
If that hasn't been changed by law, there's a lot of crime being perpetrated in commerce these days.
Not that there otherwise isn't. 

Terry

I agree 100% and I miss spoke when I said that but no when a cop pulls you over they ask what your SSN is as ID. I never give it because my card says not for identification but the new cards don't say that. This whole birth certificate and SSN is a scam. Did you know your Birth certificate is a bond traded on the NSE? Check it out. We are all sheep.

[Ted Fancher]

   Of course, we agree on the "ARF culture" bit, although, this threshold was crossed for model aviation in general long before CL, and would have resulted in the same issue whether CL ARFs existed.

   An interesting point is that Congress appears to have exempted us from FAA control and this regulation appears to violate that. I have asked the AMA to respond on whether or not they plan to file for a restraining order on that basis.

    Brett

That's certainly true Brett, however, my only point had to do with the stunt community's lack of "clean hands" when we get all upset about what is happening.  Had we had the foresight to see the entirely predictable impact of our change of emphasis from creativity, engineering, craftsmanship and aerial artistry to "toys for tall boys at K-Mart" we might have retained the right to be "offended" by what has happened.  As it is, our community is pretty much hoist on a petard, the making of which we blithely abetted in search of...I'm not sure what; but this is what we got.

I think we should continue to fly and simply tell the Feds that show up that..."It's a kite...can't you see the strings?"...before they shoot it down.

Ted

[Jim Dincau]

Three emails to the AMA and no replies yet.

[Brad B]

Is there any process in place to recall the current AMA leadership and replace them with people who will actually represent modelers?

If so, what is entailed?  If not. how do we as members make this happen?   

[Jim Kraft]

I saw what Bob Brown said in Model Aviation, and I thought he is changing AMA into something else. What happened to Academy of Model Aeronautics? I really feel this for all of the builder flyers that are left, whether R/C, FF, control line, or any other modeling activity. I think we have been hijacked. Really to late to do anything about it now in my opinion. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

The AMA thinks they have us over the proverbial barrel because they know most sites and contests require a license to fly there. What club will let you fly without it?

I have no idea how this is all going to play out, but I am sure they will try to sell it as a very positive step in the right direction. That may be their downfall in the short or long run though.

[Brett Buck]

That's certainly true Brett, however, my only point had to do with the stunt community's lack of "clean hands" when we get all upset about what is happening.  Had we had the foresight to see the entirely predictable impact of our change of emphasis from creativity, engineering, craftsmanship and aerial artistry to "toys for tall boys at K-Mart" we might have retained the right to be "offended" by what has happened. 

  Right, although this would have likely happened anyway, since this had long since been the case for the AMA in general. That battle was lost in the 80's when the model airplanes (RC) became something you bought, instead of something you built. What CL does, or stunt does, is only a mote in the eye of sport RC.

    Brett

[Terry Caron]

To fault true modellers for the current cock up is unwarranted, seems to me, as ARF/RTF (with then-current technology) has been a part of control line flying since before I can remember.
Most significantly, involvement with ARF/RTF by true modellers has played *no part* in the problem supposedly being addressed by the FAA.

It is well and good to do all possible to motivate the AMA to oppose the FAA's encroachment but, in the final analysis, to leave it at that is still to ask others, regardless of the responsibilities their offices may entail, to do the heavy lifting.

Letters, emails, 'phone calls to Congressmen (no, I'm decidedly not PC) by *everyone* with a dog in this fight is an individual responsibility, if not very duty.
See Fredvon4's example (http://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/registration-required-of-rc-included/msg429154/#new), p 3, reply #124 as encouragement.
As Brett has said over and over - IT'S ILLEGAL!!

Terry

[Jim Kraft]

Hey, I can still fly my Dakota Biplane FF. It only weighs 8 ounces with the Torpedo .035. I think I could even keep one under the weight limit with one of the newer light radio systems.

[peabody]

I received an email from the AMA. It said, essentially, that control line planes are included in the registration requirement.

[wwwarbird]

You probably won't Wayne.  Maybe, but I doubt it...

Mike

 I was kidding about getting a reply, I wasn't even remotely expecting one. I highly doubt Brownhole even read all the way through my message. He's just another shallow corporate minded jackass IMO. Too bad for all of us. 

[Target]

My stance is that while the AMA is not "at fault" for the actions of the FAA, they certainly didn't try to separate themselves from quad copters and FPV, which is EXACTLY WHERE THE PROBLEMS stemmed from.
For that, they are guilty of being too PC in my opinion.
It COULD BE that they thought they could control the quad pilots by offering them inclusion, but if you read just an hour or two worth of threads in RC Groups, anyone could see that Quad Pilots don't care about that at all.

So, yeah, the AMA is basically worthless in this fight, in my opinion, and we are at the mercy of the Federal Government, which is not comprised of many people that can accomplish enough to make it in the real world (as a whole).

We can all say that its "no big deal", but this is just the beginning, and this solution will be a huge failure at solving the real problem.

Regards,
Chris

[Terry Caron]

To be fair, the problem stemmed from dumba**es with drones/RPVs, the AMA's response simply compounded it for all modellers.
But yes, any people are at the mercy of their government if they accept that state of affairs.
As U.S. citizens, we do have the means, opportunity and (I hope) cajones to stand up for ourselves as well as international modelling.
Hound your congressmen (and women, for the P/C).

Terry

[dennis lipsett]

Where is the C/L modellers tea party organization when you need them

[Chancey Chorney]

Well, I am still entitled to my opinion, while it is would be nixed, but I think that CL planes should be exempt at the minimum, within the original AMA guidelines anyways. There should also be provisions for other aircraft in other areas of the hobby, yes RC too. But anyways, here is the main reason for me chiming in on this thread. I would do this, but am not BIG into this, nor do I have the knowledge and experience of many here in what they want or are looking into for help exactly. But I was wondering if someone happened to contact MAAC, Model Aeronautics Association Of Canada, up here in Canada to see their take on this. Reason being is that we would not be too far behind you in the US with these policies coming into place. Maybe someone there would be willing to help you take a stand to get this stopped, or even offer some advice and or a helping hand. Just thinking aloud and help may come from mysterious places.

[Frank Imbriaco]

The AMA  top brass typically shows up at the  annual three big  indoor trade shows - The AMA EXPO Ontario, Cal. in January, WRAM Show  Secaucus ,NJ in February, and Toledo  in April.
 
While there  likely  will be little product  other than multi-rotor stuff and a few Bind- and- Fly  type aircraft  at the 2016 editions , I'm planning to speak with Mr.Brown at the WRAM ;so  there should be some measure of satisfaction for me, but probably not much for him .

 I've asked my wife to  pack me  a sleeping bag as the line  no doubt will  form to the right ,extend through the  entrance doors and reach all the way to the Meadowlands and  NJ Turnpike.

[Jim Kraft]

If I was an engine manufacturer I would start producing a good line of 1/2A engines. The lower weight limit is .55 pounds. I can build those all day long under the weight limit and have some fun without the hassle. Probably have to have a scale with me to prove to the gov. inspectors that come to Abilene Ks. that my plane is under the weight limit. I see a lil Jump'n Bean in my future. I already have a scaled down Hots R/C plane converted to control line with an OK Cub .074 on it. And I still enjoy running my old sparkers on the test stand in the back yard just to watch the prop go around. AMA, who needs it. Hey, I could even build a super prop rod with a 60 sparker.