The Future of IC ?

[Lester Nicholson]

Not worried about the future of the fuel burning engine that brought me into this sport 54 years ago, I'm worried about the future of our sport altogether. I've never been a competitor, just a lover of CL airplanes, and have always had a passion for the sleek stunt ships. I wonder who is going to carry the torch so to speak. All the people that I see in our sport, with a small exception are my age [63] or older - granted there are a few exceptions at the handle, but wonder about CD's, judges, and folks to run the events in general and it seems like I'm losing heros and friends at an alarming rate.     Joshua 1;9       Nick

[Bruce Hoffmann]

OK - I'll throw my two bits worth in!   A long devoted flyer over here in the land down under and until last December using IC motors to power my many stunt ships..  Over the previous 10 years I had mainly been using Saito 56's and 72's and having a varying amount of success with them.  Found that when they were working well - they did, but could suddenly go off the boil at the most in opportune times - normally just as I was about to fly the first round at a big competition!  So I put my (sometimes) trusty Saitos away and went for a Stalker .61, after quite a bit of internal work the engine managed to put out enough power to pull the skin off a custard tart and I had an enjoyable 6 months or so flying with it - again with a degree of success.

Then the sky opened and an angel fell to earth clutching an electric motor to her well endowed bosom (well not exactly but I thought I'd take a bit of poetic license!)  I've now been flying with EL powered Firecracker models since February of this year - had hundreds of flights  with a set of 6 x 4 cell 3600, 3700 & 3000mah batteries and not had to mix any fuels since last December!! 

Went flying with a couple of IC Stunt flying friends 2 days ago, it took one of them 3 flights before he had his motor running well enough to do the pattern (but then it wasn't running well), my other friend managed to fly the pattern on his second flight (but had his engine out of the model in between to rectify some fuel problem) - Meanwhile, I put my trusty EL powered Firecracker out on the circle, pressed the button and away I went. (After my helper released the model of course)  I had 6 great flights - constant repeatable motor runs.  Motor set at around 9300 rpm now and the model is lapping at about 5.7 - 5.8 secs/lap on 68.5 ft lines.  It became a little windy and turbulent (the circle is very close to some trees), but still my 54oz model just did what it had to do - without fuss.  At the end of the flight I removed the drained battery and replaced it with a charged one - a quick release cowl and the changeover is done in about 30secs.  Repeatable, time and time again.  What else could a stunt pilot want??  when I speak to other fliers and praise EL I say "I can fly the model today, put it away and pick it up again in 12 months time.  So long as I put another good battery in it the model should behave exactly as it did today"  Can you be that confident in performance of an IC engine?  No - there are too many variables... fuel, glugging up in the spray bar, sediment/gluggy oil etc in tank, the engine/glow plug being gummed up etc.

I'm certainly not selling my IC engines or models - yet, I still have several other types of aeroplanes that are fitted with IC engines and that won't change.  But for Stunt and for me, I can't see a reason at the moment to go back (and I think it is a backward step for me) to IC powered stunt ships.

[Kim Mortimore]

.....What else could a stunt pilot want??...... 

Maybe this:

.....an angel...(with a)...well endowed bosom ...... 

[proparc]

Over the previous 10 years I had mainly been using Saito 56's and 72's and having a varying amount of success with them.  Found that when they were working well - they did, but could suddenly go off the boil at the most in opportune times - normally just as I was about to fly the first round at a big competition! 

This post is interesting because, the Saito's AND Stalkers, (a dedicated purpose stunt motor) tend to be some of the steadiest front-ends in the business. Jose Modesto and myself, have very long experience with motors, going back to the Combat Johnsons, (if you can get those to fly stunt-you can handle anything).

The absolute most rock steady motor I have ever owned is my Super Tigre 46, which I got when I was 14 years old, and still NEVER misses. My Saito 72 is running close second. I.C. setup requires experience. That is all there is to it. Jose Modesto may be one of the worlds foremost experts on the ST 60, (he owns 10 of them) because he has been at that motor since his early teens.

Bob Reeves is an expert on the Saito 40A because, he dedicated himself to that motor, and he knows it better than most politicians know their constituents. I know my Saito 72 because I focused on that motor and I know everything I need to know about it to get it to run the way I want.

Success with any I.C. setup is all about control. Just how good you are controlling EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of the powerplant will determine your success.

[Jim Kraft]

We all fly stunt for different reasons. Some fly only to win, what ever it takes. Nothing wrong with that. It has brought us many great innovation's. Then there are guys like me (probably not many), that feel like every time we make an improvement in engines, we loose something. To me there is nothing like the bark of an old Anderson Spitfire, or any of the old sparkers for that matter, flying through the pattern. Next comes Fox 35's, Fox 59's and McCoy Red Heads. Sure, it takes some finesse to make them do what you want, but that is the fun for me. The new stunt motors that are available now are just plain awesome, but they loose something for me. Heck, I have three FP 40's that ran like a sewing machine. I haven't flown them for years. Not near as much fun as a McCoy 40. That gets me down to electric. Those things are sterile. No grease and oil, no belching smoke and fire, none of that wonderful noise. When you fire up a fueled engine, be it spark or glow, the beast comes to life. Electric goes Mmmmmmmmmmm. Probably goes back to my warped child hood watching sparkers fly back in the 40's. As many of the proponents of electric have said, guys like me just want to stay in the dark ages. You know what; I think you may be onto something. But I am not going to apologize for it.

[Andrew Borgogna]

I have recently dabbled in electric and it does have some serious advantages.  One that was very nice was being able to go to the local park and fly.  Not only did people not complain, they even liked it.  They brought their kids over to watch it.  If I hadn't burned up the motor and speed controller on a noise over I would still be flying it.  I plan to build my upcoming Continental with electric power.  I have been working with Eric Rule at RSM to convert the Continental to electric.  I have the ESC and will be getting the motor soon.
Andy

[Bruce Hoffmann]

My Saito 72 is running close second. I.C. setup requires experience. That is all there is to it. 

Success with any I.C. setup is all about control. Just how good you are controlling EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of the powerplant will determine your success.

I am not arguing that IC aren't or can't be 'good' - each to his (or her) own as far as I'm concerned.  I have about 40 years experience in flying aerobatics with IC engines, 10 of those years dedicated to flying with the Saito 4 strokes - 56 & 72 and have had many thousands of flights with those.  So to say I don't have experience with IC or Aerobatic flying is incorrect.  On other forums I have in the past praised these engines as well.  But technology continues to improve the way 'we' do things - every day in whatever we do. Its inescapable.  The control of an EL motor is becoming infinite.  Programs that will allow you to 'tell' the motor what Rpm you want it to do - and then it does it and doesn't alter - unless you have some sort of other program installed (gyros etc) where the motor will change rpms at a given point, times of flight, delays to start - exact science to the second.  Some IC's may give close to perfect runs 'until' some errant grass seed or bug happens to find its way into your fuel system - then it all goes to pot! 

Since flying with 'Electrics' I've found a vast improvement in reliability and overall performance of my models.  There is always 'tweaking' that can be done to improve them, but the same can be said for anything powered by an IC engine - thats what 'we' as modellers 'do' - we try to get the best out of our model and powerplant setup.  I have friends who have tried EL and found that its 'not for them', and I guess it's not for everybody.  But if you have a chance to fly someones 'good' EL model take up the offer - I'm sure you will be suprised.  The friends I have allowed to fly my 2 best models have been VERY impressed.  One has taken up EL flight in a HUGE way others are a little slower coming to terms with what will probably become the future. 

There is a cost issue in the early stages of conversion, (Batteries, ESC's, Timers, Motors, Chargers, props etc) - to get to a competitive point an initial outlay of about $900 (Aud) will be required, so for those with a good performing model with an IC power plant and without excess funds, I can understand the reluctance to spend more money.

At this stage, personally, I can't see a reason to go back to my IC engines for Stunt competition, there just seems to be so many benefits to EL power, (lighter cleaner models that last longer due to reduced vibration is just one) - but who knows what the future holds for our sport, what's next? 
Bruce

[Joe Yau]

The way is going..  Glow & Electric should not be in the same class, and really should be seperated IMHO.  

[Bruce Hoffmann]

The way is going..  Glow & Electric should not be in the same class, and really should be seperate IMO.  

In the end it's still down to the ability of the flier. I don't think there should be a separate class - that would ruin our sport.  To 'level' the playing field rule changes need to be made so electronic timers can be allowed for installation into IC powered models, I think its only a matter of time before this happens.

  Just to clarify as well.... In my posts I am NOT telling anyone to give up their IC engines immediately and go to EL - if you want to do either - that's up to you.  Its just another option to enjoy our sport, how you manage that is purely a personal choice and I am not going to criticize anyone for that.  We do not want to lose sight of what what it is we do and why we do it.  We can all enjoy it together.  I've tried and used IC gear for many years and still do in other models besides F2B and as said, won't be selling it at any time in the foreseeable future.  But for those that haven't yet tried EL - Don't knock it until you have tried it!

[Jim Kraft]

As far as I know there is nothing in the rules that says you can't use a timer. I could be wrong though.

[Bruce Hoffmann]

I could be wrong too (am often told that I am) but I think the FAI rules state something along the lines that indicate that any operation on the model HAS to be made through the control lines.  Electrics are legal - and I don't know what rule changes have been made to allow timers etc in those models.  However at this time I didn't think 'timers' were allowed in IC models - which is something that definitely has to be changed if this is the case.

[W.D. Roland]

3. Electronic augmentation systems now being schemed for electric stunt planes will be applied to internal combustion engines, making them competitive again if rulemakers don't outlaw them. 

5. Bikers won't give up Harleys for plug-ins.

Number 3
With a Hall effect or light sensor, a Chip, miro servo and battery connected to a throttled engine we should have all we need.
The hard part at least for me would be programing the chip.

I posted this idea somewhere about 3 years ago and figured some one would have one working by now or banned from AMA competition.
So far I find no evidence of either.
A spark advance/retard unit in combination with throttle would be nice!

So now we haul around a Lipo.........

A question that has bugged me for many years is the British go Motoring. Well how do they do this?
The best I come up with is to pull the spark plugs out of the ENGINE and drive around on the starter MOTOR.

On the other hand we have motor boats....just try an say engine boat and make it sound right.

We went out and engined around in the boat.

David

[Wynn Robins]

I could be wrong too (am often told that I am) but I think the FAI rules state something along the lines that indicate that any operation on the model HAS to be made through the control lines.  Electrics are legal - and I don't know what rule changes have been made to allow timers etc in those models.  However at this time I didn't think 'timers' were allowed in IC models - which is something that definitely has to be changed if this is the case.

yep - you are wrong - timers/fuel cutoffs  (and electronic starters) were allowed in FAI a couple of years ago.

[Bruce Hoffmann]

yep - you are wrong - timers/fuel cutoffs  (and electronic starters) were allowed in FAI a couple of years ago.

Well - in this case I am glad I'm wrong.  Puts IC users on the same playing field as EL fliers - if they want to be.

[pmackenzie]

A question that has bugged me for many years is the British go Motoring. Well how do they do this?
The best I come up with is to pull the spark plugs out of the ENGINE and drive around on the starter MOTOR.

On the other hand we have motor boats....just try an say engine boat and make it sound right.

We went out and engined around in the boat.

David

motor:
1.  Something, such as a machine or an engine, that produces or imparts motion.
2. A device that converts any form of energy into mechanical energy, especially an internal-combustion engine or an arrangement of coils and magnets that converts electric current into mechanical power.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/motor

engine:
a.  A machine that converts energy into mechanical force or motion.
b. Such a machine distinguished from an electric, spring-driven, or hydraulic motor by its use of a fuel.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/engine

So no matter what you have under the hood of a car or on the nose of a stunter it is a motor.
Two stroke, 4 stroke, turbine, or electric, doesn't matter as long as it makes it move.

However electric motors are not engines.

Pat MacKenzie

[Derek Barry]

  If I hadn't burned up the motor and speed controller on a noise over I would still be flying it. 
Andy

Does not sound like any advantage to me. When I nose over my engine just stops.

[Howard Rush]

Does not sound like any advantage to me. When I nose over my engine just stops.

This is one of the safety problems with electrics.  People use them without fuses or circuit breakers.  An airplane that noses over might burn up components, or the prop might start turning again-- when the pilot runs to the airplane to stop it from burning up, for example.  I'm glad to learn that my Schulze controllers have stopped-motor protection, but I still plan to use a fuse. 

Other electric-plane safety issues are high-energy, zero-internal-resistance batteries and silence.  To paraphrase Paul Smith, an electric CL model is like a rattlesnake without a rattle.

[FLOYD CARTER]

On safety.  Always install a "circuit breaker".  I use a Deans Ultra plug 2-pin set.  It is wired right in series with the battery.  I can install a fully charged LiPo at home, and not worry about accidentally starting.  On the flight line, when my helper is holding, only then do I insert the shorting plug which connects the battery to everything else.  When I remember, I tell my pit crew that I will fetch the plane after landing.  That is so I can remove the shorting plug, making it again safe.
Without this feature, the only thing keeping the motor from running is a mysterious signal from the flight timer.  Since I don't trust anything electric, I need the fail-safe cut-off.

Floyd

[W.D. Roland]

Thanks Pat
These 2 terms have provided me with a source of fun for many years. Did you know you can actually make smoke come out of an engineers ears with this subject?
During my young days the engineers around me tried to beat  into my head  that an engine made energy internally and a motor's energy came from external source.(and various other versions of this)

My comments would be some of the following:
So its a Steam Motor?(external combustion motor?)
you gona put motor oil in your engine?
Henry Ford blew it ?( Ford Motor Co.)
Detroit is known as "Motor City"
So whats up with GM?( now known as Government Motors)
The owner of a local large engineering firm:
 "wow! I like my new BMW 6 cylinder motorcycle"  Ugh, Tommy that's an engine.( smoke and fire)
Looks like a set of motor mounts holding that engine in place.
The boat thing
The Brit thing

After a very large release of smoke from one engineer his comment to me was "I don't trust civilians with technical definitions"( well Dad, go look it up)

Thanks for your ammo  Pat, this afternoon I  plan to go to town and make smoke come out of engineers.
I know a building where 25-30 of them "hang out". Will have Fire dept on stand by alert.

Is it ok if a motor mount is used between the airframe and engine?(ICE)

And the best definition yet that sorta fits is Motors go wizzz and engines go VROOM, VROOM!

The arguments over these 2 terms may never end, at least it looks that way on the Engineering forums.

Anyone have any thoughts on electronic engine management for our Internal Combustion Motivation Devices ?

On second thought it has not rained in the last 30 or so hours and its cool so more Stunt practice is in order.
Now where did I put that gallon engine fuel for the Stunt Motors.


David

[Rudy Taube]

Floyd,

I'm glad to see you using a "safety plug", thanks for posting this important message. This is an excellent safety feature that we should all use. Many of us have been using one for a few years now, and we are trying to get the word out to make it a universally used item on ECL planes. The next issue of SN will have an article on this, and other safety features for ECL.

I think Howard is referring to the other issue of having some form of "breaker" to shut the system down "automatically" right after a prop strike and before the system is damaged.

Howard,

I'm very glad you brought this up. It is always good to hear from one of the top flyers in CLPA, and one of my CL combat heros! I agree with you that this is an important safety, and expense issue.  All quality ESCs (Schulze, Castle Creations Phoenix, Jeti, Hacker, etc.) have had this safety shut off feature for the past several years. I highly recommend that everyone who gets into ECL only use an ESC with this safety feature. (This is one of the many reasons I recommend that people stay away from cheap ESCs and other cheap E equip.) This feature is adjustable during the ESC setup by the pilot. The default setting is usually a "medium sensitivity". This is not really low enough to immediately shut down the system in a CL prop strike. It will give audio (and visual inside the plane, not very useful to us ;-) warnings that lets the pilot know that your system needs your attention, as in HELP ME, HELP ME, ETC.  This is OK in the RC environment (where 99% of ESCs are sold) because we can almost instantly move the throttle stick to a zero power setting. Obviously we can not do this in a timely manner in ECL. After shutdown the system has a reset feature.

In ECL we should use the low sensitivity setting on our ESC and this will shut down the system after any prop strike, or other mishap on the pilots part. This is a very reliable shut down feature and will save your system from harm.

When I first started using E power 30 years ago we did use fuses. Our ESCs were primitive for brushed can motors and did not have any shut down features. Today we are lucky to have very safe, reliable, feature rich ESCs that solve this problem for us. ..... But of course, your milage may vary ;-)

Regards, 

[Bruce Hoffmann]

I have seen a prop strike on a model with a Phoenix 50 ESC fitted.  The motor stopped immediately.  As said, the trick is that the sensitivity has to be 'up' - the ESC registers the extra load of a prop strike in 'amps' and stops the motor - mine are set at '50' - normal flight the highest it gets to through the pattern is about 35 - 38 amps.

Re the safety plug - I don't use a 'deans' connector or anything like that... I just have the 'Positive' cables from the battery and ESc hanging out of the cowl - push them together and poke them inside the fuse (there is still a small length of cable protruding outside the fuselage) - at the end of the flight I unplug the cables... simple and doesn't require any additional bits that might fail..