Noob with a Sig Shoestring and Enya 15 lll

[Lonnie Smith]

Hello all, new to the forum and revisiting CL after a 42 year hiatus.

I crashed the heck out of several Cox plastic .049 CL planes when was 8 and 9 years old and those things really took the spunk out of me. I swore I'd never try flying CL again. Call me a liar but here I am again; a true gluton for punishment. Thing is, I can't let CL flying beat me so this is one of those bucket list objectives.

Been flying RC planes for many years now, all types, pattern, imac, warbirds, 3D and sailpanes. I rebuild my own engines, 2 strokes and 4 strokes, so I have no trouble understanding the fundamentals and lingo with those. I've been reading here a lot but still need guidance to get off on the right foot in CL flying.

I have a Sig Shoestring kit and an Enya 15 lll and I'm not certain on the other items needed to set it up so here go the questions.

.012" ga. 52 ft lines be ok?

How much right thrust?

A good handle that I won't have to upgrade flying larger plane?

2 oz. Brodak fuel tank? Which one?

DIY plans for a stooge?

Additional: On the test bench I have the centerline of the fuel tank and nva at the same height. Why does it want to flood every time I go to start it. It starts and runs fine but fuel just pours into the engine if I don't get it started quick enough. BTW, this is my first CL NVA engine, I can't believe how long it takes to break in one of those old iron baffled piston engines! 

Any help is greatly appreciated,

Lonnie

[Dan McEntee]

   Well, this combo should get you off the ground for some basic flight.

    Yes on the line diameter and length.
 
    Try RSM or Brodak for a commercially available handle, or search on the forums here for threads about them. A handle is a pretty person thing.

    Zero to 1 degree right thrust.  Anything more than that just makes the airplane crab un-necessarily.

   Get a 2 ounce uniflow tank. But for what you are doing, anything that holds fuel will work. A standard stank will just speed up a bit towards the end.

   Again, search out stooges here on the list. Brodak has a simple mechanism that you can attach to a board r metal plate, and they have them with the metal plate I believe.

   The tank is probably still too high. lower the tank or raise the engine. Enya engines are notorious for taking a long time to break in, but once you get them there they last forever.

    Check out this video on Cox models. There should be a few more that pop up with it.

           

Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Peter Nevai]

Welcome back to the fold. I can sympathize with your original foray into CL. Yours is not a rare case. Unfortunately many of those plastic cox planes were marginal flyers at best. Your Shoestring is a good starting point for learning to fly CL. Personally I would go with a different engine like an OS 25 or equivalent as Enya's can be cantankerous if not broken in properly and they take a long time to break in properly. Once broken in however they pretty much last forever. Your proposed set up is fine for getting your feet wet. I suggest that you participate in our weekly "At the Bench" video chats hosted every Monday and Friday evenings. The link is posted every Monday and Friday in the "At the Bench" sub forum on this site. There you can get real time answers to any questions you may have and tips on how to get started with the least amount of trouble.

[Lonnie Smith]

   Well, this combo should get you off the ground for some basic flight.

    Yes on the line diameter and length.
 
    Try RSM or Brodak for a commercially available handle, or search on the forums here for threads about them. A handle is a pretty person thing.

    Zero to 1 degree right thrust.  Anything more than that just makes the airplane crab un-necessarily.

   Get a 2 ounce uniflow tank. But for what you are doing, anything that holds fuel will work. A standard stank will just speed up a bit towards the end.

   Again, search out stooges here on the list. Brodak has a simple mechanism that you can attach to a board r metal plate, and they have them with the metal plate I believe.

   The tank is probably still too high. lower the tank or raise the engine. Enya engines are notorious for taking a long time to break in, but once you get them there they last forever.

    Check out this video on Cox models. There should be a few more that pop up with it.

           

Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

Thanks for the info guys.

Dan, I had the same Stucka, didn't last long. You seemed to handle it fine.

The plans show 0° rudder angle. Still use 0-1° offset?

Peter, the plans call for a 10 or 15 size engine. Wouldn't a 25 be too fast for someone with no dizziness antibodies?

Does Randy Smith have a store that someone can link here?


Thanks,

Lonnie

[Dave Rigotti]

What EXACTLY shoestring you have?  The .15 sized for Goodyear "racing" an all sheet wood design?

BTW... Welcome back!

[Lonnie Smith]

What EXACTLY shoestring you have?  The .15 sized for Goodyear "racing" an all sheet wood design?

BTW... Welcome back!

Yes, 10-15 size all sheet "Goodyear Racer"

[De Hill]

The weaknesss on this kit is the landing gear. The gear is in two pieces, and the tops of the gears  stick in to the sides of the fuselage. Since there isn't solid wood where the tops of the gear stick in, the gear will wallow out inside of the fuselage and make the gear toe out when you land, and that will flip the airplane over.

To fix this, drill a 1/4" 0r 3/8"hole where the top of the gear gear is going to stick in, and glue a 1/4" or 3/8"
dowel into the hole. Drill a hole through the dowel that is the same size as your gear, and assemble the gear to the fuselage according to the plans. Use 2" light wheels.

[Dave Rigotti]

OK Great on the Shoestring!  A couple degrees of right thrust and a bit of right rudder ( 1/8") will do fine.  .012 by 52" lines AOK.  Look for an adjustable handle for "neutral" and one that allows some adjustment in line spacing.  A 2oz tank is PLENTY big enough. Mine has a 1oz tank.  Just ADD another landing gear strap on each side up near where the landing gear wire goes into the fuse and you'll be fine.

Have fun!

[Steve Helmick]

Welcome to the fold!

I would suggest #1 to make sure you're using fuel with plenty of CASTOR OIL in it, or that little Enya may not last as long as they are supposed to. Put a filter in the fuel line and filter the fuel going into the tank when filling up. Saves headaches and crashes.

I would also suggest that (for a CL Noobie) a good dose of side-thrust will help slow the model down a bit, but MAINLY it will make the lines get tight quicker WHEN they get loose....two or three degrees will help.

Some experience with a basic trainer is useful, but a LOT of handle time with same basic trainer is pretty useless, IMO.

You can adjust the speed of your model by trying different propellers...pitch is key. I'd suggest an 8-4, but know that Master Airscrewed props are typically under-pitched, so an 8-5 might actually be 4" pitch. If you happen to have a pitch gauge...um, that's not likely, but some guys us iphones and other high-tech methods. I'd rather fly it and see what happens. Adjust the airspeed with the prop pitch and rpm with prop diameter.

IIRC, when I was starting to fly CL (60+ years ago), I used a 1.25 oz wedge tank. If you can find a 2 oz clunk tank, I'd go with that...just put in <1 oz of fuel and go. You won't learn much by flying for 5 minutes that you couldn't learn from a 2 minute flight, except how dizzy you can get and still stay upright. I kinda like the getting dizzy part...with no hangover.

Randy Smith has a website, but it's not very current, generally speaking. It's best to call or email. I like email, and have ordered stuff from him by email with zero problems. Also take a look at Okie Air Model Products...banner ad at top of page. And there are several kit cutters that can provide nice kits for later down the road...see the Vendor's section.    Steve


 

 

[Air Ministry .]

Yea , A Veco I had needed a few litres of THIRTY PERCENT CASTOR fuel through it , before itd stay running even .

Tryed 20 or 25 and it went limp , back to 30 & it hummed .

a 8x4, 9x4 or if you want quicker 8 x 6 . or 7 x 8 prop.

After a few hours running , if you want to take the paint off , 20 to 40 % Nitro will let er rip , try for ' the ton ' etc .But set RICH or itll burn out .

 Calm weather & running well , 60 foot x .012 ( probly illegal their ) wouldnt hurt . Should loop & fly inverted , if controls are free and say 45 degrees movement each way .

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Be ready to step back & away  on take off , no violent climbs etc .

Solidly built , a 25 would be god for an easy ton . On 60's .

[John Rist]

A good handle:  https://okieair.com/shop/ols/products/handle-biased-hardpoint

[Dan Berry]

The weaknesss on this kit is the landing gear. The gear is in two pieces, and the tops of the gears  stick in to the sides of the fuselage. Since there isn't solid wood where the tops of the gear stick in, the gear will wallow out inside of the fuselage and make the gear toe out when you land, and that will flip the airplane over.

To fix this, drill a 1/4" 0r 3/8"hole where the top of the gear gear is going to stick in, and glue a 1/4" or 3/8"
dowel into the hole. Drill a hole through the dowel that is the same size as your gear, and assemble the gear to the fuselage according to the plans. Use 2" light wheels.

Do this before gluing the wing into place.

[Lonnie Smith]

Wow, a lot of great input, thanks.

Handle: I'm not sure I see the advantages to using an adjustable handle over a hard point handle. Is it possible to adjust it "on the fly" for trim or something?

Good recommendation on the installing a hard point and dual straps for the LG. Looking at the gear arrangement I saw that as a weak point as well.

Is there a tutorial somewhere for setting up the leadouts and line connections?

Engine: I'm currently using 24% 50/50 oil and 12% nitro. Seems a good match for the Enya #3 plug. So far after an hour of heat cycling on bench and pinching the fuel line it's running about a 6 second clean 2 before sagging. Is that good enough to fly if I set it for a lean 4?

[Dan McEntee]

The weaknesss on this kit is the landing gear. The gear is in two pieces, and the tops of the gears  stick in to the sides of the fuselage. Since there isn't solid wood where the tops of the gear stick in, the gear will wallow out inside of the fuselage and make the gear toe out when you land, and that will flip the airplane over.

To fix this, drill a 1/4" 0r 3/8"hole where the top of the gear gear is going to stick in, and glue a 1/4" or 3/8"
dowel into the hole. Drill a hole through the dowel that is the same size as your gear, and assemble the gear to the fuselage according to the plans. Use 2" light wheels.

     What De said, plus drill the hard wood for a brass tube to take the ends of the landing hear halves. To really re-enforce it, telescope the brass tube into the next size up and drill the hardwood for that. Almost indestructible that way.
    Do more than heat cycle the engine. Put on a cut down 8-4 cut down to 7 inch diameter, and run at a high four cycle, occasionally peak into a two stroke. It needs time and running in. Bench run with a four ounce tank.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Lonnie Smith]

     What De said, plus drill the hard wood for a brass tube to take the ends of the landing hear halves. To really re-enforce it, telescope the brass tube into the next size up and drill the hardwood for that. Almost indestructible that way.
    Do more than heat cycle the engine. Put on a cut down 8-4 cut down to 7 inch diameter, and run at a high four cycle, occasionally peak into a two stroke. It needs time and running in. Bench run with a four ounce tank.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

Yes, hardwood dowel and telescoped brass tubing sounds very strong. Good tip. Thanks.

Edited previous post, I have been running it as you say. I stopped heat cycling after the first 8 ounces of fuel. My understanding is that the steel piston expands in size more than the steel sleeve as temps rise due to material type. Never made sense to me to heat cycle this type of engine anyway. Breaking in very rich at first and gradually leaning is important. A very different break in process than an ABC.

[Lonnie Smith]

If I run a clunk tank, better to mount inboard or outboard with an Enya 15 lll?

[De Hill]

Have very little DOWN elevator. It will go down a lot better that it goes up.

I have built several of these. They are very good little trainers.

[Peter Nevai]

Tanks on profiles are typically mounted on the outboard side unless there is a space limitation. Keeping it on the outboard side gives the fuel line to the motor less twist and turns getting to the spray bar. The .15 size engine is fine, I thought you had the built up wing Carl Goldberg version which used to take a larger motor. As previously mentioned you can control the speed of the plane by using props of different pitches. Generally the less pitch is slower the higher pitch is faster. In CL the needle valve is used to set the engine to a RPM it likes running at, speed is controlled via propeller pitch.

[944_Jim]

You asked about a stooge?
Pull string operated:

[Dennis Leonhardi]

Hello all, new to the forum and revisiting CL after a 42 year hiatus.

I crashed the heck out of several Cox plastic .049 CL planes when was 8 and 9 years old and those things really took the spunk out of me. I swore I'd never try flying CL again. Call me a liar but here I am again; a true gluton for punishment. Thing is, I can't let CL flying beat me so this is one of those bucket list objectives.

Been flying RC planes for many years now, all types, pattern, imac, warbirds, 3D and sailpanes. I rebuild my own engines, 2 strokes and 4 strokes, so I have no trouble understanding the fundamentals and lingo with those. I've been reading here a lot but still need guidance to get off on the right foot in CL flying.

I have a Sig Shoestring kit and an Enya 15 lll and I'm not certain on the other items needed to set it up so here go the questions.

.012" ga. 52 ft lines be ok?

How much right thrust?

A good handle that I won't have to upgrade flying larger plane?

2 oz. Brodak fuel tank? Which one?

DIY plans for a stooge?

Additional: On the test bench I have the centerline of the fuel tank and nva at the same height. Why does it want to flood every time I go to start it. It starts and runs fine but fuel just pours into the engine if I don't get it started quick enough. BTW, this is my first CL NVA engine, I can't believe how long it takes to break in one of those old iron baffled piston engines! 

Any help is greatly appreciated,

Lonnie

Lonnie, you're a liar!

We're glad you are, but you told us to say it.  Welcome back to the great group of folk that ...  well, go around in circles!

Dennis

[Lonnie Smith]

Thanks again, so many helpful folks here.

Looking closely at the plans they call for sanding an airfoil into the wing. I'm not opposed to a little sanding but by the looks of it they are shooting for top speed using the wing profile shown. Seems this would make the wing much less durable, especially from mid chord to trailing edge. The TE is shown razor sharp. I'm not really after speed at this point, more about durability. Hope it's ok to leave the wing thicker at the TE.

[Perry Rose]

Where are you located?

[Lonnie Smith]

Arkansas. Hopefully I can watch some contest flying in Eldorado this year!

[Lonnie Smith]

Some further questions:

Control throws: Just starting out, how much up and down elevator with how much arm/wrist movement. I'm a noob!

Initial trim: How is this performed for maiden flight? Have someone hold the plane level at chest height and trim for nuetral elevator with wrist straight and arm pointing directly at the  plane? I'm assuming a lot here fellas.

Should I even use my wrist at first?

[Perry Rose]

How far north? There are several flyers in the El Dorado area. Others further north. They have a contest in early May in El Dorado.

Adjustable leadout slider is a must. Hang it by the leadouts and set the elevator/flaps to neutral. Adjust the lines to match. Have an experienced flyer check it out and test fly it.

[Lonnie Smith]

I was editing my post while you were posting. I live in Clinton, North central AR. I'll do my best to get to Eldorado in May.

[Perry Rose]

I have an ARF Flite Streak you can have but you have to come to the Baton Rouge area to get it. If not you can pick it up at El Dorado.

[John Rist]

Wow, a lot of great input, thanks.

Handle: I'm not sure I see the advantages to using an adjustable handle over a hard point handle. Is it possible to adjust it "on the fly" for trim or something?

The advantage of an adjustable handle is that you can adjust it at the field.  Most of them have some kind of a loop back cable with a wing nut to allow adjustment.  Disadvantage is that  with years of use the cable can break and most of them do not have the ability to adjust the line spacing.  Also the purest (serious competitors) say you get better feel with a hard point.  Hard point handles are usually adjusted for neutral by using line clips of different lengths.  Pilots dedicate  a set of lines and a handle to one aircraft.  The handle I suggested  (  https://okieair.com/shop/ols/products/handle-biased-hardpoint  )  Has the advantage of both.  It is a hard point handle that you can adjust line spacing and neutral.  This handle also has what is called bias.  This takes care of the angle of the dangle of your hand when the wrist is straight.  Once again some like it, some don't.  I like it but for a noob it probably doesn't matter.   Good luck and have fun.  PS the learning curve is sharp.  You will out grow a trainer fast.

Few if any handles can be adjusted "on the fly".

[De Hill]

Control throws: 10 degrees up, 5 degrees down. These can be changed later after you have perfected flying level.

Initial trim: You have it right.

Adjustable leadouts: (Not Needed) I have built several of these, and have always glued in the leadout guides where the plan shows.

Just move your arm up and down at first.
From level flight; move your arm up.
When the airplane has gone up as far as you want , lower your arm back to where it was during level flight.
If you leave your arm up, the airplane will continue to climb.

If you lower your arm, the airplane will go down fast!

It won't glide far after the engine quits.

These instructions only apply to a trainer.

[De Hill]

Glue 1/2 to 1 ounce of weight to the outboard wingtip.

This is important.

[Lonnie Smith]

Glue 1/2 to 1 ounce of weight to the outboard wingtip.

This is important.

Is there any reason I shouldn't conceal the lead within the thickness of the outboard wingtip? I have a slot cutter.

Where along the wing chord do I place the tip weight in relation to the lead out guides? Centered, ahead of them or behind them?

Sorry for all the questions, the plans don't cover much.

[Scott Richlen]

Welcome to the fun!

Our club used the Shoestring many years for flight training. It is perfect for it.  We used Enya 15s - they worked fine.  Take Dee's advice.  3 inch belcrank is fine, just make sure you attach the pushrod in the outer hole of the control horn.  Keep it simple, you don't need fancy equipment for this to work.

Put a 3/4 oz tank on that airplane.  But absolutely not more than 1 oz.  After you know you won't get dizzy, you can put a 2 oz on it, but you probably won't.  If you are the age of many on this forum, you do not want to get dizzy, fall down, and break a hip.  Seriously.  If you haven't flown CL before, you are likely to get dizzy after only 9 or 10 laps.  One fall and your flying season could be over - and I say this seriously because you would be dizzy and falling, not just falling.  There is a big difference!!  If you have ever seen anyone get dizzy and then fall, it's really an ugly fall.  So take care.

[Scott Richlen]

Where along the wing chord do I place the tip weight in relation to the lead out guides? Centered, ahead of them or behind them?

Put the weight on the right wing-tip about a half-inch behind the leading edge.  Burying it in the wood will keep it from popping out when you crash or flying off during flight.

By the way, if you have some light-ply, replace the balsa fin with a light-ply fin.  When the plane flips over in the grass the fin will be more likely to survive.

[De Hill]

A Large Reyco handle from Brodak would work for you. It is a modification of the old E-Z Just handle.
It is pretty light; at this stage of the game, you don't want a heavy handle.

[Dan Berry]

I was editing my post while you were posting. I live in Clinton, North central AR. I'll do my best to get to Eldorado in May.

I am in Benton. I have a place to fly.

[Lonnie Smith]

I have an ARF Flite Streak you can have but you have to come to the Baton Rouge area to get it. If not you can pick it up at El Dorado.

I am in Benton. I have a place to fly.

Thanks fellas, I'll take you up on your offers this spring!

[Lonnie Smith]

I've done some searching and reading on cables. Looks like the advice I'm getting here is spot on, .012 or .015 stranded lines will work. I found some turorials that show how to install the eyelets and crimp tubes. What size eyelets and clips are appropriate?

What size cable should I make the lead outs with. Looks like I need to install eyelets where they exit the wing but how do they connect to the bellcrank? Do I just loop the cable through the bellcrank and crimp tubes on?

I've read where trim adjustments can be accomplished by swapping in different length line clips when using a hard point handle. Is this the norm?

Is this plane long enough that I need to install a pushrod guide on the fuse?

I'm a noob! Sorry for all the questions. I'm one of those "get it right the first time" people.

[Scott Richlen]

For leadouts use .024 music wire.  Do you have a DuBro Quicktwist?  Use that to twist the wire after looping it through the bellcrank.

[De Hill]

.015x52' lines Would be the best bet.
.012's are fragile.
.008's are much worse.

[John Rist]

You might consider Spider Wire (fishing line) for your flight lines.  Cheep, strong, and low maintenance.

A detailed discussion on all kinds of flight lines can be found at     https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/making-up-new-control-lines/

[De Hill]

The problem with spider wire is in the knots.

[Lonnie Smith]

Found this info on connecting leadouts to Bellcranks. Excellent idea with the brass tubing sleeves to protect the bellcrank from wear.

https://stunthanger.com/smf/building-techniques/bellcranks-leadouts-and-sleeves/

[Perry Rose]

Found this info on connecting leadouts to Bellcranks. Excellent idea with the brass tubing sleeves to protect the bellcrank from wear.

https://stunthanger.com/smf/building-techniques/bellcranks-leadouts-and-sleeves/

It's not worth the aggravation. Just wrap with copper wire..

[Lonnie Smith]

It's not worth the aggravation. Just wrap with copper wire..

Hmmm. Even if I'm using cable leadouts instead of music wire?

[John Rist]

The problem with spider wire is in the knots.

The knot is really not a problem.  I use a modified surgeon's knot.  It allows you to leave a loop and get the two lines the same length and supposedly does not reduce the breaking strength.   Watch the video presented in this post at reply # 5:  https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/spectra-knots-one-more-time/   

[John Rist]

By the way Spider Wire lines can be stored on dog bone kite string winder.  You wind it on in a figure 8 pattern.  It unwinds easy by holding the handle loosely letting the handle oscillate as the line plays out.

https://store.kittyhawk.com/collections/accessories-line/products/hq-kites-designs-usa-winder-w-bungee-103519

[Lonnie Smith]

Thanks again to everyone here for the great advice. Randy Smith fixed me up with a handle, lines and hardware to complete my setup. I'll report back this Spring when I crash....errr uuugh fly the Shoestring.

Lonnie

[Dan Berry]

Thanks again to everyone here for the great advice. Randy Smith fixed me up with a handle, lines and hardware to complete my setup. I'll report back this Spring when I crash....errr uuugh fly the Shoestring.

Lonnie

I also know a guy in Morrilton. I think he has a place to fly. He makes kits.