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Author Topic: non-flappedairfoil  (Read 4281 times)

Offline sleepy gomez

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non-flappedairfoil
« on: March 06, 2009, 11:07:30 PM »
What would be considered the best non-flapped airfoil for a 40. sized plane at say 40 - 45 ounces?  How well could it be expected to fly a competitive pattern?

Offline Matt Colan

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Re: non-flappedairfoil
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2009, 11:18:53 AM »
What would be considered the best non-flapped airfoil for a 40. sized plane at say 40 - 45 ounces?  How well could it be expected to fly a competitive pattern?

My grandfather has a Big Job, and he has flown it in both classic and OTS.  That plane was designed in 1948 and has an unusually thick airfoil for the time (I think 18-20%).  This plane is flapless, and flies very well.  The Big Job has a 53 inch wingspan with a 6 inch nose moment I believe.  The tank compartment ends right before the main spar in the wing.  His Big Job is powered by an OS FP .40.  I do know Keith Trostle has one with a DS .54 and Charlie Reeves has one with a Fox .59 long shaft.

I'm not an expert on nonflapped airfoils, but I think this wing could be a start.  H^^

Matt Colan

Offline Clint Ormosen

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Re: non-flappedairfoil
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2009, 11:46:08 AM »
What would be considered the best non-flapped airfoil for a 40. sized plane at say 40 - 45 ounces?  How well could it be expected to fly a competitive pattern?

Are you looking for just the wing airfoil or a good non-flapped model. Don't know what "the best" airfoil could be, but there are several good flying model designs. The Primary Force ARF comes to mind. Also, Ted Fanchers' Doctor and Medic designs. Heck, even the 38 Special.
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Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: non-flappedairfoil
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2009, 12:06:53 PM »
If you download Profili, you can make one that I think is really good. Start with the NACA 63A010 from its store of profiles, increase to 18% or 20% thickness, and move the "high point" from 35% chord to about 24% of the chord. This can be done in about 10-20 seconds. Profili will print ribs for any tapered wing and, if you subscribe (still $10.00?), for any elliptical wing. It will also process it in X-FOIL for you. I checked mine against the NACA 00xx sections used by many (Mike Pratt, Bob Palmer, Larry Cunningham,...), and at our Reynolds numbers, it showed this wing section ('air foil') to be slightly superior. I'd expect it to be better in the wind and produce plenty of lift. I built a high-aspect-ratio flapless stunter with this section, and it flew really well, untill brain fade prevented my carrying out the rest of my tests at the field. I will use it again.

I can't find my original comparison scan to show how its shape relates to NACA 00xx sections, but below are three images:

1) Two versions of this airfoil: with and without a fixed flap.

2) Graph from X-FOIL (accompanies - part of - Profili) showing comparison of lift curves at RN = 400,000 for this airfoil with and without the flap and the NACA 0020. This flap is stationary, like Flight Streak, and improves max lift and stall. The percent thickness decreased to 18.77%, because total chords were kept the same with same section profile but added flap.

3) My thicker airfoil (printed out for use with flaps) with an elliptical leading edge and NACA 00xx-section aft section. This one might be nice thinned down to perhaps 18% - 20%. This could be done approximately (squeezed) in ten seconds with Profili.

Edit #2: I've added a 4th image, which should better show the flapless section's shape (structure from previous model).

The graph shows best performance for my section with "only" 18.77% thickness, but the non-flapped shape itself has a thickness of 20%. Old NACA documents show that, contrary to what is accepted for full-sized wing sections, the thicker sections, ca. 20% do have the highest maximum lift coefficients at our Reynolds numbers. They are superior in maximum lift to 12-15% sections.

Don't be put off by using something not pre-published. This is easier in all respects, since the program does everything for you, from placing spar and lightening cu-outs to graduating and printing all ribs - basically for free.

AND - if you trust any software to predict airfoil behaviour at our low Reynolds numbers, it does that too.

Edit: I see that my compressed images are not very clear. This is not how Profili prints them, but rather the result of my old Picture Publisher program trying to accomodate the 50 Kb limit on SSW where they first appeared. Profili prints smooth, solid lines.

SK

« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 01:14:11 PM by Serge_Krauss »

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: non-flappedairfoil
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2009, 02:06:38 PM »
Very cool, Serge.
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Offline sleepy gomez

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Re: non-flappedairfoil
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2009, 07:22:39 PM »
Thank you very much Serge.  That is just what I needed.  SLEEPY

Offline Geoff Goodworth

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Re: non-flappedairfoil
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2009, 12:23:38 AM »
What Serge says about modifying an NACA 63A section is good but you could also try an ellipse with a straight line tangent to the ellipse running back to a TE about 1/16" wide.

Thickness in the range 18–20%

Max thickness at about 25–27%

Cheers, Geoff

Offline RogerGreene

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Re: non-flappedairfoil
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2009, 11:31:17 AM »
What is Profili?
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Offline Larry Fulwider

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Re: non-flappedairfoil
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2009, 12:24:57 PM »
. . . try an ellipse with a straight line tangent to the ellipse running back to a TE about 1/16" wide.

Thickness in the range 18–20%

Max thickness at about 25–27%

Cheers, Geoff

Those of you who have seen the Teosawki or used any of Phil C. wings, or combat ships of any class, might agree. For some reason, the "straight line from high point to TE" airfoils seem to have some magic in the unflapped world. That, plus the more forward high point, and a blunt LE is the way I would go. Based on wind tunnel tests? Measurements? Data of any sort? Nope, just copying the guys I suspect have some reason to think might be on to something.

Larry Fulwider

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: non-flappedairfoil
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2009, 03:06:47 PM »
What is Profili?

Roger-

Profili is an airfoil creation/processing program that allows you to find, start with, and modify any one of hundreds of airfoils in its library, or to create your own from scratch, by entering ordinates. It provides XFOIL, a CFD program that acts like a virtual wind tunnel, giving you aero data and graphical comparisons of lift and drag curves for any airfoil you wish to analyze. It allows you to add spars and lightening holes and will print out ribs or comparisons of airfoils, overlaying them in different colors. It can do mods graphically (using mouse) or digitally and allows you to name and save what you like to its library. It will create and print out your ribs for any tapered wing, and with the subscribed version, for any elliptical wing. That means that if you create the root and tip ribs, it will generate all of those in between at any intervals you choose. There's more.

Profili is a a freeware download for the earlier, less fancy version. For the more advanced version(s) you can register with its creator/developer, Stefano Duranti, and pay a one-time modest fee (was $10.00 for me years ago). There is also an advanced version, and I see tie ins with CAD programs now to design models. I just told him I'd send the check or cash, and he sent me my code or password on trust. I then mailed him the registration fee. The thing is practically free and a great resource - probably the best model/aeronautical bargain on the web.

The internet site is here:

http://www.profili2.com/eng/default.htm

Go down in the left column and click on "registration". He describes the program, how to register for more, and what you get. There is a lot of instruction/help available, although much is self-explanitory and discoverable by just trying things. It's a friendly site/program, and he has always been available for personal e-mail and help.

SK



Offline Matt Colan

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Re: non-flappedairfoil
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2009, 03:11:03 PM »
Roger-

Profili is an airfoil creation/processing program that allows you to find, start with, and modify any one of hundreds of airfoils in its library, or to create your own from scratch, by entering ordinates. It provides XFOIL, a CFD program that acts like a virtual wind tunnel, giving you aero data and graphical comparisons of lift and drag curves for any airfoil you wish to analyze. It allows you to add spars and lightening holes and will print out ribs or comparisons of airfoils, overlaying them in different colors. It can do mods graphically (using mouse) or digitally and allows you to name and save what you like to its library. It will create and print out your ribs for any tapered wing, and with the subscribed version, for any elliptical wing. That means that if you create the root and tip ribs, it will generate all of those in between at any intervals you choose. There's more.

Profili is a a freeware download for the earlier, less fancy version. For the more advanced version(s) you can register with its creator/developer, Stefano Duranti, and pay a one-time modest fee (was $10.00 for me years ago). There is also an advanced version, and I see tie ins with CAD programs now to design models. I just told him I'd send the check or cash, and he sent me my code or password on trust. I then mailed him the registration fee. The thing is practically free and a great resource - probably the best model/aeronautical bargain on the web.

The internet site is here:

http://www.profili2.com/eng/default.htm

Go down in the left column and click on "registration". He describes the program, how to register for more, and what you get. There is a lot of instruction/help available, although much is self-explanitory and discoverable by just trying things. It's a friendly site/program, and he has always been available for personal e-mail and help.

SK




Serge, that looks very cool  8)  I just might have to give it a try.

Matt Colan

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: non-flappedairfoil
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2009, 03:21:39 PM »
Larry-

I pretty much agree on the desirability of flat vs. aft convex slopes on flapless airfoils. However, I believe that those that reverse curvature, as in the Flite Streak with stationary, flat "flap", are better yet. An early NACA report, my XFOIL analysis, and several experienced modelers, like John Miller, who have played with variants, agree on this point. The airfoil I showed above has a very slight reverse curvature remaining after stretching that NACA laminar section. So it should be at least as good as the straight tapered ones. I like the nose because it should resist stalls up to high aoa's, but still has a less abrupt curvature near the high point, even though it has a very forward point of maximum thickness. I think it should penetrate well when rounding from downwind - that's just my guess though. Mine glided really well, as compared to what Ted said of his thick sections with forward high points.

SK


Offline phil c

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Re: non-flappedairfoil
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2009, 04:07:34 PM »
Sleepy, on a non-flapped plane I'd have to say that weight and wing loading are more important than airfoil.  Serge's airfoil would be fine, but a NACA 0018 also works very well.  At our flying speeds(Reynolds numbers) 18-20% is definitely better than 12-15%.  I found 45 oz. to be just about all a 750+ sq. in. wing can carry and still do a nice looking pattern.  It also needs to pretty sharply tapered, with a tip chord 40-50% of the root, in order to keep the wind from bouncing it around too much.  Also pack in as much span as you can fit in your car.  A 65in. wing will handle more weight than a 60 in. wing of the same area.

These kind of numbers let you fly without ever getting anywhere near the stall point, so the wing does not build up excessive drag and slow down as much.

One nice thing about the 00xx airfoils is that they have a nice smooth curve from front to rear, so the wing behaves very predictably and smoothly.  Fixed flaps and flat back airfoils(and planes with flaps) can be put into a regime where the flat surface stalls and slows the plane down- something that might happen when you try for just a little more turn at an awkward spot and get hit by a gust at the same time.
phil Cartier

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: non-flappedairfoil
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2009, 05:46:23 PM »
All airfoil plots show the trailing edge coming to a point!  While probably correct, we must "fudge" and allow for a real trailing edge structure.  This usually means fattening the last 25% or so to accomodate a trailing edge piece that is strong, and which will support flaps and hinges.  Therefore, all this airfoil "research" usually ends up with a modified something-or-other, meaning that what we think we are getting isn't necessarily so!

I think you can save a lot of effort by first deciding on a percentage thickness and a leading edge that looks like hundreds of other successful designs, and then fill in the blanks! I'll bet you won't be able to tell the difference!

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Offline Larry Fulwider

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Re: non-flappedairfoil
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2009, 10:21:47 AM »
Larry-

I pretty much agree on the desirability of flat vs. aft convex slopes on flapless airfoils. However, I believe that those that reverse curvature, as in the Flite Streak with stationary, flat "flap", are better yet.  . . .

SK



Serge __

OK. Although it is a little unfair to agree with me when I’m unsure ;)! My comment was merely a Yogi Berra type comment, as in, “You can see a lot by looking”. But your comments help explain why we don’t often see those flat aft section airfoils on flapped stunters. And I believe it more now. I did miss that your proposed sections were pretty flat aft.

Here’s a related question where you likely have a logical opinion. We all use the catch-all 25% MAC as “close enough” for other calculations. I have wondered if 5% ahead of the high point might not be a better guesstimate. That is, 25% is pretty good for the airfoils with max thickness at ~30%, but maybe not with the forward shifted high points. Say, use 15% if the high point is at 20%? Some evidence would be if, for some of the high speed laminar flow airfoils with the high point back to nearly 50%, the engineers “assumed” a larger percentage of MAC with good results? Do you have anything on that?

Larry Fulwider


Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: non-flappedairfoil
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2009, 12:51:37 PM »
Floyd-

I agree about looking first at the leading edge, although I believe that the choice of l.e. radius is only part of it. That design above was made to optimize the transition from the extreme l.e. to the high point, an area I suspect does much to define handling characteristics. The maximum thickness probably is more of a variable depending on this than a goal in itself for determining max lift and stall characteristics. I don't think the aft part is quite as important, but I also don't think we always have to fudge it for structural reasons (see my fourth figure above). I would change the t.e. in our typical thicknesses just to use the exit strategy of my choice. You can hinge the airfoiled trailing edges (e.g. Keith Trostle's FW), but the research I've seen , from NACA to Al Rabe's, indicates that the thin flap is superior anyway.

I'm not sure how far you meant to go with that; so here's what I think. First, while the theoretical sections do usually end in sharp edges, there are other reasons besides delicacy (or dope warpage,...whatever) that we don't always build them that way. In fact, sometimes the desired flap hinge location is at a point of too much thickness. For me a reason not to build the theoretical t.e. contours is that credible sources say that a sharp point is not the best termination anyway; the recommended technique (e.g. by Barnaby Wainfan) is to end the wing (flapless or the hinged section's t.e.) with a sharp, vertical cut ('squared off'). The air (Kamm effect?) then breaks cleanly and continues to rejoin better than if there had been a "sharp" edge, without the skin friction past the new t.e. Apparently the wing acts as though it has that extra area.

I did find in an old NACA report as well, as in recommendations from John Miller, the belief that flat stationary flaps with sharply cut vertical edges make better lift than sections continuing the airfoil contour to a sharp edge. The unfortunately least examined figure in my post above shows XFOIL's "opinion" that the recommended "flapless" airfoil with that stationary flap not only has a higher maximum lift than without the flap, but that with or without, it still exceeds the maximum lift of the regular NACA section and has a significantly better stall characteristic. That stationary flap is flat and squared off.

When I built my last flapless - the one with the recommended wing - I have to admit that my Tom Morris "New Millenium" type structure made a very nice sharp airfoiled t.e., and I delayed adding my planned stationary flap to try out the sharp t.e. It seemed to fly well, but I never got a chance to really test high aoa's before I let it fall in from overhead (incidentally, the t.e. was not the weak link). I will build another similar plane with a simpler structure, and I'll use the stationary flap. You'll see on the last figure a vertical line chopping off the sharp t.e. The chord of that wing was computed to allow for the proper thickness there for the flap to attach - hinged or not.

That's how I use Profili. I choose a chord that leaves the desired thickness at the chord point where I want the t.e. This is easy with the ordinates it automatically computes for anything in their database, whether or not it comes from you, or you can simply play with the graphical editing until it comes out how you want it - a minute or so. Otherwise, I calculate the defining function to end at a chosen height, as I did for the flapped section (third figure) I concocted with the elliptical front and NACA 00xx aft parts. Mike Pratt's "P-Force", by the way, has an NACA 0018 or 0017 section with sharp t.e. and is perfectly strong enough due to the 1/16" sheet that meets at the t.e. It can be built rounded, sharp, or squared off.

Larry-

There is literature out there on that, but I have forgotten what it says. What I think I remember is that the actual value is closer to 24% for symmetrical airfoils. It does move a little with varying maximum thickness, and I would expect it to move forward for forward points of maximum thickness, but I think it moves only a tiny bit, if at all. I know I built the last wing with all 1/4-chord points lined up along a straight spanwise line and placed the "high point" up at 24% to get my longest tail arm. However, I did not do so thinking that I'd get much change in chord-wise position that way; it was just to keep the quarter-chord points from sweeping aft of the root point and moving the MAC rearward.

I'm pretty sure I have some research data around here that says something about this, but I'm about at the end of my allotted time her. I have to assemble the club newsletters and make sure that I don't have to get stronger through humiliation at tomorrow's orchestra rehearsal. While my lit here is probably sufficient, you can probably find that answer on NASA's NACA report server site. I too will look - later.

SK
 

Offline Shultzie

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Re: non-flappedairfoil
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2009, 01:19:42 PM »
What would be considered the best non-flapped airfoil for a 40. sized plane at say 40 - 45 ounces?  How well could it be expected to fly a competitive pattern?
If history of successful flapless CLPA machines....and especially from seeing the late Bob Baron fly his amazing flapless stunt machines, I can't help but think of Bob's really outstanding tight radius turning stunt machines...like this one I found in the PAMPERS GALLEREEAAAAAH'  H^^

Don Shultz


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