Nobler? Dose anything fly better?

[frank mccune]

          I have an ARF Nobler that appears to be a great flying airplane.  What airplanes fly better?

          Tia,

           Frank McCune

[John Rist]

It depends on your skill level.  At my skill level I can't tell any difference in most good flying airplanes.  For folks that are great stunt pilots, ones that are capable of flying the full stunt pattern, most any modern saunter flies better than a Nobler.      

[Scott Richlen]

What airplanes fly better? 

Joe Gilbert's Ringmaster......

[Steve Dwyer]

Vector 40.... according to Randy Smith the Vector 40 was the new nobler.

Steve

[Brett Buck]

It depends on your skill level.  At my skill level I can't tell any difference in most good flying airplanes.  For folks that are great stunt pilots, ones that are capable of flying the full stunt pattern, most any modern saunter flies better than a Nobler.      

     While that is true when doing an "apples to apples" comparison (best possible state of trim and power for one  VS best possible state of trim and power for the other), almost all of the time, the difference between two designs is completely swamped by the differences in the state of trim and power, so many people just sort of stumble a better-trimmed particular airplane, and then assume that it is because it is the best design, because it really does fly a lot better than their other airplanes. 

     There's nothing shameful or embarrassing, people just find a good airplane, like it for whatever reason, so no harm. But it does make it nearly impossible to tell anything about the design without also being able to optimize the trim and power.

     We have abundant examples of pretty small (by sport flying standards) trim changes taking airplane from complete dogs to great, and vice versa, but you have to be able to evaluate where the weaknesses are and how to fix them - which can be a devastatingly difficult problem.

     Brett

p.s. to the original question, of course, almost stunt plane designed in the last 30 years, and a lot of them before that, when optimized, are better than a Nobler. And, I would note, of the 4 major variants of the Nobler ('51/"Stunting Can Be Smooth", Green Box, Gieseke, and ARF), the ARF is probably the bottom of the list - basically a poorly-built Green Box with a flat stab airfoil. But, again, if it happens to be in better trim and have better-functioning power, then, it may well be your best airplane and the best you have ever flown.

p.p.s. From the other thread, this is also the first time Frank has ever had a decent engine run - so, there's the determining factor, a 46LA in an ARF Nobler means the airplane is there as an "engine aiming device", just there to point the engine the direction you want to go. Or, as above - "completely swamped by the differences in the state of trim and power,"

[Steve Dwyer]

Or from the same era the Gieseke Nobler

[Dick Pacini]

It has been said that if you take any stunt airplane and sand it enough, a Nobler will appear.

[Brett Buck]

It has been said that if you take any stunt airplane and sand it enough, a Nobler will appear.

  Yes, in exactly the same way that every car is a modified Daimler Motor Wagen.

     Brett

[Air Ministry .]

You dont hear mouch of Rumpler , these days .







They used to get airborne over the last hump down conrod straight at bathurst . 

[Paul Taylor]

I really liked my ARF Nobler after I did a figure 9 at the Paducah contest a years ago. Jim Lynch helped me (or I helped him) rebuild the nose — put in real motor mounts and a made a true Nobler cowl. It was powered by a LA 46 that gave the 4-2 break. I really enjoyed flying it. Placed in a few contests with it. I called it Not Half Bad.


Paducah AeroModelers
https://goo.gl/maps/YXWrR35RSA41uLXu7

[Shorts,David]

This is a question following up. For a nobler to be a great modern stunters, it would need...
Higher aspect wing?
Larger 25% stab?
Increase entire plane size to 60" w.s.?
What about ratios? Are they okay?
What about airfoil?

[Ken Culbertson]

This is a question following up. For a nobler to be a great modern stunters, it would need...
Higher aspect wing?
Larger 25% stab?
Increase entire plane size to 60" w.s.?
What about ratios? Are they okay?
What about airfoil?

That has already been done.  It is called a "Bear". 

Ken

[Steve Dwyer]

David, These are design parameters (limitations) of the nobler era. You can take the Nobler out of OTS but you can't take the OTS out of the Nobler.

Steve

[Ken Culbertson]

In some families there are four generations that flew Noblers.   Probably as many as half of the designs from the 60's started out as Noblers. It is really hard to fathom that it was designed 70+ years ago.  Everything we fly today has evolved from that basic design and, in the hands of the right pilot, on the right day, it is still competitive.  Thank you George.

Ken

[Leonard Bourel]

I was just thinking about this thread and I think any good design can be made to fly great . It depends on the pilot and the skill that the model was built with. I think that any of the really good pilots who have good trim knowledge could be competitive with many designs including the nobler if set up right for them Paul Walker has flown many designs and they all work well Same with
Joe Gilbert and many others AIRPLANE SET UP, TRIM and FLYING SKILL will usually win It is not the design that wins it is what you do with it   

[Dwayne Donnelly]

A well trimmed Nobler in the right hands is still a threat at most any local contest. 

[Shorts,David]

A well trimmed Nobler in the right hands is still a threat at most any local contest. 

The last contest I watched Ted Fancher fly, he flew his Ruffy in classic on Saturday, and then flew it again in open on Sunday. He beat every expert except for Fitzgerald and Buck.

[Brett Buck]

I was just thinking about this thread and I think any good design can be made to fly great . It depends on the pilot and the skill that the model was built with. I think that any of the really good pilots who have good trim knowledge could be competitive with many designs including the nobler if set up right for them Paul Walker has flown many designs and they all work well Same with
Joe Gilbert and many others AIRPLANE SET UP, TRIM and FLYING SKILL will usually win It is not the design that wins it is what you do with it

       As noted above. It's very difficult to compare designs unless you optimize the performance of both airplanes, and test that the things you thing are different with many different examples. Given that most people (and I have flown A LOT of airplane, including many NATS Top 5/Top 20 airplane other than my own) never get anywhere near optimum trim and power setup even on one airplane, doing it with multiple versions of multiple designs is a very rare thing.

   In Frank's example, he went from various completely unworkable engines that have given him nothing but problems and didn't work very well in the first place, to a decent (not great) modern stunt engine that runs reliably and is about 2x what you need for an ARF Nobler - it's no wonder he can't imagine anything better, it is legitimately like a miracle based on experience to date. In this case it is such overkill (like the piped PA65/Vector 40 ARF that Jim Aron built) that the airplane  just has to be good enough to point the engine in the right direction. So, I am dead certain that his airplane is far from optimized, even as well as it flies.

    None of this is in any way intended to be disparaging, I am glad Frank finally got something that at least works to first approximation. But that is just a glimpse of a bigger world, there are 4-5 equivalent-size jumps from what he has, to something like a perfectly trimmed Impact/electric with feedback.

   

     Brett

[Mike Griffin]

When I lived in Warner-Robbins, Ga., I watched Bob Dixon (Tom Dixon's cousin) win a lot of contests and/or place very high flying a Nobler with a FOX 35 on it.  I don't think a Ringmaster is exactly a modern PA design but ladies and gentlemen, I give you Joe Gilbert.  By the way, hope to see you in Baton Rouge/Zachary soon Joe.

Mike

[Dennis Toth]

Frank,
The Nobler with a solid stunt engine and has the controls set right for the weight will do very well. Several people have tried to use a modern engine in a 1950-60 design and found it is much better than they were but not as good as the top modern-day designs. A ship that would use modern numbers (kinda like if you did a Fancherized Nobler) would be the Vector. This ship with a strong 40 or 46 will fly solid; turn a bit more smoothly and lock solidly.

Best,   DennisT

[wwwarbird]

Joe Gilbert's Ringmaster......

 Ha! One of my initial thoughts as well! 

[Dan McEntee]

   Does anything fly better than a Nobler?  It depends on the nut on the handle! I have been finishing up two ARF Noblers that have been hanging on my garage wall for 20 years or more. Both have Morris controls. One has a Brodak .40, the other an OS.35S. I find it amazing that the nose would hold together at all is assembled stock as there is about half the wood necessary. So the engine mounts got gussets, 3'8" thick balsa cross grain between the tapered mounts in the tank compartment, custom fuel tanks built, and now that both have been flown and trimmed a bit, a solid balsa block will get epoxied to the top of the mounts in front of the firewall. As they are and for what they are, they fly pretty good and fly pretty much the same. But is there anything better? Hell yes!! Try Shark.45, Skylark, Olympic, later versions of the Thunderbird, and I could go on. George won one NATS with it, and I don't think he ever tried out for any FAI team. Gieseke took it and hade it his own and did win some NATS and a WC with it. But the Ares and it's descendants in Billy's hands and a few other have done well also. To me it all boils down to , as I said, the nut on the handle and their commitment to practice and the effort it takes to get to the top. You have to wonder just how many gallons of fuel Some of these guys burned along the way. The Nobler mystique was really just an effective marketing plan by TopFlite. Guys would buy them and squirrel them away for "someday, when they really get good and can do a good job of building it." I have had a LOT of guys tell me that, but they never stuck with the hobby long enough to evolve and improve. That is why you see so many N.I.B. green box Noblers for sale. If they were the end all best flying stunt model, they would have been built and flown to death long ago. It is a classic design, got a lot of people interested and maybe even started in the hobby, and I do like it and the Gieseke Nobler, along with the Grondal Nobler, and it may be the best airplane for some people. But you will never know until you try some other designs. Some guys can fly the boxes that the kits come in! As I was working my way through beginner and intermediate, and I thought I had hit a plateau where I was as good as I was going to get or the airplane had some sort of issue, I would ask an expert friend to fly it once and watch from outside the circle, and just about every time I could see right off that the problem wasn't the airplane !! You never stop learning in this hobby, or you shouldn't! If the Nobler is in your mind, the best there is, then so be it, and go fly the heck out of them, as long as you just keep flying. If you see your skill level improving and confidence level increasing, try one of the other airplanes mentioned and apply what you have learned along the way to the airplane you decide to try next.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Ken Culbertson]

wonder just how many gallons of fuel Some of these guys burned along the way. The Nobler mystique was really just an effective marketing plan by TopFlite. Guys would buy them and squirrel them away for "someday, when they really get good and can do a good job of building it."

I remember Gieseke going through a gallon a day getting ready for Team Trials.  I wonder how many of those guys flying ringmasters and flight streaks with the Green Box on the shelf waiting till they got better knew that the Nobler was easier to fly than either one of them.

Ken

[Steve Helmick]

The last contest I watched Ted Fancher fly, he flew his Ruffy in classic on Saturday, and then flew it again in open on Sunday. He beat every expert except for Fitzgerald and Buck.

AND, Ted says that the Ruffy isn't nearly the best Classic design to choose from. Some of the Nobler variants would probably be higher on his list. Some of the earlier Classics had way too much wing offset, too short a tail moment, too small a horizontal tail, or too little aft side area. Ted's flying and trimming skills compensated for the Ruffy's shortcomings.

Remember that per the rules, it's not illegal to modify a Classic...reduced wing offset, nudge the tail moment and horizontal tail area, all is legal. The rules say it is adjusted by the "authenticity" points (maybe "authenticity" is the wrong word?), but nobody seems to use them, so it comes out in "appearance" points. It's not practical for the judges to be expected to recognize what is original and what is tweeked.  Steve

[Scott Richlen]

Remember that per the rules, it's not illegal to modify a Classic... 

So, maybe build one with a Thunder-Gazer stab and elevator? 

[Brett Buck]

AND, Ted says that the Ruffy isn't nearly the best Classic design to choose from. Some of the Nobler variants would probably be higher on his list. Some of the earlier Classics had way too much wing offset, too short a tail moment, too small a horizontal tail, or too little aft side area. Ted's flying and trimming skills compensated for the Ruffy's shortcomings.

   The biggest issue is that the low aspect ratio wing sucks up a lot of  power in corners, more than even a Nobler. It also has teeny tail.

Remember that per the rules, it's not illegal to modify a Classic...reduced wing offset, nudge the tail moment and horizontal tail area, all is legal. The rules say it is adjusted by the "authenticity" points (maybe "authenticity" is the wrong word?), but nobody seems to use them, so it comes out in "appearance" points. It's not practical for the judges to be expected to recognize what is original and what is tweeked.  Steve

    And, it's also *not important* to pick out any small deviation, so the "can't tell" argument is pretty hollow. The rule is there to catch gross deviations like extended tail moments, greatly reduced asymmetry, or wildly out-of-period engines (like a piped 46VF). If you can't tell, then it is not enough to worry about. Using it as intended is perfectly practical and serves the original purpose.

  Note that you would also cause hysterics the first time you gave someone with an Aero-Tiger and Phelps 10.5-4 UC carbon prop only 5 fidelity points. But even -20 points isn't nearly enough to overcome the performance difference. That makes more difference than putting an Infinity stab on a Nobler.

     But, you are right in one way - since no one even bothers with fidelity points, there is no other way in the rules to penalize this, everything is a "modified Nobler" as noted above, so, there you go. Infinity #4/RO-Jett 61 BSE "Brett" verson = modified Nobler/Fox 35. So, indirectly, I guess a Nobler CAN win the NATs!

     Brett

[Ken Culbertson]

everything is a "modified Nobler"

Case in point.  This plane was accused of being a modified Nobler by a Judge at the '64 Nats.  Not, by the way, by George who was ED.

Ken

[Air Ministry .]

This is a question following up. For a nobler to be a great modern stunters, it would need...
Higher aspect wing?
Larger 25% stab?
Increase entire plane size to 60" w.s.?
What about ratios? Are they okay?
What about airfoil?

You Mean ->



Pretty much ,


a bit of each , id say .

[Air Ministry .]

From around 2002 ? Id think say a RE Stalker 51'd be a better idea than the .60 .
a ' Hot Rodded ' Nobler , which I thought typified the ' California Hi Po Custom ' idea
and very fitting . ( Like Greg Ardels 21st century peacemaker ' A Mod mylar / foam/ spuce / 4 rib
version of the Classic flie streak type peacemaker . Id like to try one at 150 % .)

60 in the Gieske . again , the RE 51 would be less overkill , but those .32 ball race schneurles are too .

Excess mass can get the inirtial effects visually apparent .

[Air Ministry .]

Some bloke with a pipe & beard mustve copied it , and put his name on it . 

[Dan McEntee]

I remember Gieseke going through a gallon a day getting ready for Team Trials.  I wonder how many of those guys flying ringmasters and flight streaks with the Green Box on the shelf waiting till they got better knew that the Nobler was easier to fly than either one of them.

Ken

  I think if you looked into it, you would find that they sold just as many or more Flite Streak kits as Nobler kits. The Flite Streak was cheaper, pretty durable, pleasant looking, and more adaptable in it's use. Lots were lost flying combat and were pretty easily replaced when that happened. It's popularity is why Great Planes put it out as an ARF along side the Nobler, as that is kind of the way it was in their day. You still see quite a few original Flite Streak kits around also. I think I have four or five. I think they fly just as well as any other .35 sized profile, if not better because of the better airfoil. The extra weight of the heavier leading and trailing edges didn't seem to bother it and helped it survive run ins with the ground more often than not. Like any other design you could name, it's a pretty good airplane when put together straight, and balanced correctly, and capable of a 500 point pattern if the pilot is capable.

    Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

[Brett Buck]

  I think if you looked into it, you would find that they sold just as many or more Flite Streak kits as Nobler kits. The Flite Streak was cheaper, pretty durable, pleasant looking, and more adaptable in it's use. Lots were lost flying combat and were pretty easily replaced when that happened. It's popularity is why Great Planes put it out as an ARF along side the Nobler, as that is kind of the way it was in their day. You still see quite a few original Flite Streak kits around also. I think I have four or five. I think they fly just as well as any other .35 sized profile, if not better because of the better airfoil. The extra weight of the heavier leading and trailing edges didn't seem to bother it and helped it survive run ins with the ground more often than not. Like any other design you could name, it's a pretty good airplane when put together straight, and balanced correctly, and capable of a 500 point pattern if the pilot is capable.

   To expand on this - most people will find (and probably did find) that their Flite Streak flew better than their Nobler - because people at least have some hope of building, trimming, and powering their Flite Streak to optimize it, whereas, almost no one is going to be able to build/trim/power their Nobler to anywhere near optimum. Back in the day, you had a much better chance of getting your engine to run right in a Nobler than a Flite Streak because almost none of the available engines ran very well sidewinder. Certainly do not have that problem now, a 20FP or 25LA runs perfectly that way.

  Point being, a simple model that you can optimize and is simple enough to trim that you can actually manage to do it, might be a lot better than a "full-house" model that you can't trim. And I can assure you that most people cannot come close to optimum trim and power on a "full-house" model, even some very high NATs finishers.

  Hence my contention that now, since the sidewinder engine problem has been conclusively solved by either modern small engines, or electric, almost everyone will likely get better performance with a simple profile model that they have a hope of trimming, rather than a complicated model that might fly better if perfectly set up, but in practice, will be much worse.

    Brett

[Air Ministry .]

theyre so popular , they even come up when you put " flite steeak " in the window . 



Belows the pommy wersion ,



As the Colonial & disunited kingdom Classic Combat allows you to use the WING OUTLINE - structure free . You dont use a structure . You use one of these ,



For lacisdaisical types , and Combat Flyers - seems like sense . Flite Steak'd take that trick too . The Pommy pop gun at 150 % ends at four foot plus tips = 56 span .
good forra .40 or .35 if light . Which it would be with a TWENTY FIRST CENTURY structure wing / PEACEMAKER .    ( Pat. Ardle ) !       

Good Stunt trainer too . 

[Air Ministry .]

The Real Mc Coy .



oops . " Greg Ardill " / greggles47

LE is commercial 3/4" (19mm) preformed, backed by 1/2 x 1/8 spruce (full length)

Spacing is worked out by the following formula:

Put in middle ribs (the big ones).
Put in tip ribs (the little ones)
Put on TE. (Drawn as 1/4Sq - spruce) Mine has 5mm Carbon
Put other ribs where they fit best between LE & TE.

Wings are equal length.

Ribs and tips are 5mm balsa

G'luck mate.
_____________


N.B. the wings of something else with another name , not exact plan outline , a Common Combat thing .


Er , RIGHt . Now - if you did THAT to a NOBLER , and scaled it up 150% ( Just to get us back on topic  )      

My views its one of those things thats more than the sum of its parts . One of those accidents of evolution .

[MikeyPratt]

Defeated

[Christopher Root]

   To expand on this - most people will find (and probably did find) that their Flite Streak flew better than their Nobler - because people at least have some hope of building, trimming, and powering their Flite Streak to optimize it, whereas, almost no one is going to be able to build/trim/power their Nobler to anywhere near optimum. Back in the day, you had a much better chance of getting your engine to run right in a Nobler than a Flite Streak because almost none of the available engines ran very well sidewinder. Certainly do not have that problem now, a 20FP or 25LA runs perfectly that way.

  Point being, a simple model that you can optimize and is simple enough to trim that you can actually manage to do it, might be a lot better than a "full-house" model that you can't trim. And I can assure you that most people cannot come close to optimum trim and power on a "full-house" model, even some very high NATs finishers.

  Hence my contention that now, since the sidewinder engine problem has been conclusively solved by either modern small engines, or electric, almost everyone will likely get better performance with a simple profile model that they have a hope of trimming, rather than a complicated model that might fly better if perfectly set up, but in practice, will be much worse.

    Brett

My Top-Flite Peacemaker, basically a built-up Flite Streak, flies AMAZING with an OS FP 25!

C R

[Ted Fancher]

Joe Gilbert's Ringmaster......

Touche, Scott!!!

Ted

[Ted Fancher]

Oh, and forgot to mention that there's a Tucker Special hanging on my den wall that...after we added a couple of pounds of lead to it (joke...it was more like 8/10 oz...but hey)  and spun up a low pitch prop a thousand plus RPM higher than anybody ever ran a "weak to start with" 4/2 Fox on a paddle pladed 10 X 6 Top Flite" flew plenty well enough to be competitive in most any contest!"

We haved learned a lot about power trains since the Nobler's place at the top of the heap and paying attention to what works so much better has a distinct impact on the performance of some of those old timers!  As someone mentioned previously in this thread there have been more than a few "old timers" do pretty dang well in highly competitive contests around the planet employing what we've learned from "up front" attention!

Ted

[Shorts,David]

Speaking of noblers. Does anyone have a three view or similar they can upload? I can't find one on the internet except a black one.

[Steve Helmick]

Speaking of noblers. Does anyone have a three view or similar they can upload? I can't find one on the internet except a black one.

But WHICH "Nobler"? There are so many variants by GMA..."original", M.A.N., Green Box, ARF, plus multiple variations from Mr. Gieske, including the Blue Box kit.

As a pup in '63, I recall watching stunt at NW CL Regionals (at Sand Point NAS). There were a lot of Noblers and Ares' built from kits that all were obviously suffering from too much weight and Fox .35/10-6 TF thrusters...ewww! I also recall a Bob Tucker (not the St. Louis Tucker) flying a Veco Hurricane with Veco .35 power that really flew well...  Steve

[Air Ministry .]

Thought it said ' rustic ' for a moment .

[Air Ministry .]

something like that , anyway .



Gieseke Nobler 46

Oh well , 3 views arnt as common on the ground as they used to be . 

[Air Ministry .]

Aldrich - The Red Thread Genealogy for the Lost Tribes of Israel
https://the-red-thread.net › genealogy › aldrich
Spelling variations include: Aldridge, Aldrich, Alderich, Alderidge, ... two Old English personal names, Ælfric 'elf ruler' and Æ{dh}elric 'noble ruler'.