New Nobler woes...HELP!(updated....)

[Scott Hartford]

I put together the UHP Geiseke Nobler and installed a Saito 40 with a Bob Reeves manifold. The plane has light silkspan over the SLC film applied with Polycrylic and painted with automotive basecoat and clearcoat.



I made a new elevator joiner and horn with 3 holes to adjust flap-elevator ratio if needed and made an access hatch to allow adjustment.

Now to get to the "woes" portion of the program........
I maidened the plane yesterday morning and the first thing I did was to speed the engine up a bit as the first flight was a bit slow. A couple of more flights and it was feeling pretty good, if not a tiny bit more sensitive than my ARF Nobler,which is OK with me.
Today, the first flight was good, but I thought a bit of nose weight would help so I installed a Higley nose weight (1 oz.) I took off and it was feeling pretty good and I did wingovers, 3 loops, inverted, 3 outsides and one more lap and on the upwind side, from level flight, it went in. It was a weird feeling and I knew I didnt give it any down, and as it sat there where it smacked the ground, I wiggled the handle and saw the controls were not responding. The plane was not flown in any violent maneuvers as I was too scared with it being new so it was smooth and steady all the way. There is very little vibration as the Saito purrs like a kitten and everything was balanced. This is the damage (so far):



Also the engine is loose and I suspect that the mounting bolts have sheared in the blind nuts(that I installed with Loctite!!!). I was trying to think what may have come loose in the controls but remember checking them carfully before installing as there is no access so it was now or never. A little bit of surgery revealed the culprit:




The ball link at the flap horn broke. I still don't know why. I know if you screw the rod in too far they may break, but if the photos are clear,the break has not uncovered the end of the rod or even the threaded hole in the ball link. There is plenty of rod outside the ball link and I remember checking lenght when I installed it. Also, as you can see in the pictures, I put JB Weld on the end of the threads of the bolts through the horn so it wouldn't come loose. At this point I am trying to devise a method with the least amount of intrusion to replace this link. I have to unscrew it off the front rod and get the bolt out of the horn. The good ideas aren't exactly flowing right now as I am thinking how I am going to fix the motor mount bolts also...Has anyone had this happen with these ball links? Anyone know what brand they are? They were included in the UHP kit. I've had better days................

[Bob Reeves]

Ouch! Man that hurts me and I wasn't even there.. Good news is it looks like it's fixable without a complete rebuild.. I don't know for sure but think the ball links are Chinese copies of Rocket City parts. Bad part is you probably also have one down on the bellcrank that is going to be a bear to replace.

I would replace them all and contact Ultra Hobbies to let them know about the problem. If they are actually Rocket City parts you probably was just lucky enough to get the one out of a million that had a defect.

[Scott Hartford]

Yeah, I suspected that all the hardware was Chinese sourced copies as I was missing one pushrod end that looked like the Central Hobbies titanium ends, but I tried the Central ones and they didn't fit... Also, I had to turn down the supplied ends that appeared to be nickle plated steel so they would fit into the carbon tubes (that werent the standard diameter). But Bob, you can be assured that Saito was running sweet as it mowed the field! I really don't know what to do at this point........

[Bob Reeves]

First Contact Steve at UHP.. Understand he travels quite a bit but when he is in town he will get back to you pretty quick.

The JB Weld will give way to the heat from a soldering iron or gun. I just replaced the leadouts in an ARF nobler for one of our club members by cutting into the top of the fuselage above the bellcrank and wiggling the bellcrank out through the top.. You might be able to gain access to the link on the bellcrank using the same procedure.. In any case I wouldn't chance flying it again without replacing all the links..

[Alan Hahn]

I posted over on the SSW version of the issue.

If you want to break the JB Weld on the nuts, simply crunch on it with some pliers. It will break right off.

[Richard Grogan]

Scott,
Sorry to hear about the new Nobler. Did you use the brass cone-shaped spacer between the horn and ball? (I cant tell from the pix)..Without it, it defeats the purpose of the ball's swivel action, and if there is any binding on the flaphorn might be a source of a problem.. just a thought.

[Scott Hartford]

These ball joints don't have that brass cone. There was no binding anywhere. The controls were very smooth. I figure that any binding that could break a ball link would have crashed the plane immediately. 

[Gary Hajek]

                    It looks like belcrank pushrod is bottomed out you can see how far in  it is   on the last picture's . The plastic looks to me like it was pushed apart.  ??                     Gary hajek

[Scott Hartford]

I can assure you I carefully measured the depth of the ball link and did not bottom it out. The end you are seeing in the picture is one that came with the controls, and the clearly visible one on the front of the elevator rod is a piece of 4-40 pushrod I used as an end (with a longer threaded portion) since the kit was short one end. If the rod was bottomed, I would think at the break, the end of the rod would be visible, or at least the end of the hole. Also, I tested this theory with an extra one of these ball links, and the threads in the ball link stripped without breaking the link.

[peabody]

Alas and alack...
I would speculate that the ball ends made in China are plastic if very questionable origin....the DuBro links are nylon....
I wouldn't worry about the push-rods....they are probably crappy steel, but seem to flex rather than be brittle...Titanium is WAY overkill...

[john e. holliday]

I hate to say this, but, maybe some turbalance put the plane in.  The nose doesn't look like it went straight in.  The ball link plastic could have snapped from the crash.  Maybe not.  Guess I will check out my UHP Nobler before I assemble it.  Later,  DOC Holliday

[Scott Hartford]

The plane did not go straight in, more of a very abrupt type landing at about 10 degrees! Turbulence? No, it went in slow and steady like with no response to the controls. 

[Scott Hartford]

These didn't come with any brass standoffs....... I'm getting a real good idea of what will be going in my next plane though!

[Scott Hartford]

Well, for a most unpleasant update:;( ;( ;( ;(
I stopped by the hobby shop and got some DuBro ball links to attempt to fix this. I reached in to unscrew the offending end and at about 1/2 turn it came out of the plane in one big easy to work on piece!!! Yay!....Oh crap, the front link broke too!x( :

Well, when it rains it pours I guess....Anywhoooo, for the curious, The original offending end:

I screwed the rod in 2 turns before it came through the plastic at me so I am sure it was not bottomed out. The bellcrank side(which broke where I would expect one to break, just not that easily!):

Well, unless someone knows a really small midget, this plane is DOA. The ball link Is attached to the bellcrank with a bolt that would require access to both sides. I guess it was fun while it lasted....

[Leester]

Sorry to hear that Scott. If it was me I think I'd wait till I cooled off, then one way or another it's gettin fixed. I'm to much of a tight wad to throw 200.00 +++ away without a fight.

Good Luck

[Scott Hartford]

Yeah, thanks. It's just that I cant even see the bellcrank and repairs would involve some serious surgery both top and bottom, not forgetting the motor mount bolts and cowling, and the repaint (basecoat, clearcoat). I think it would gain too much weight.

[Chuck Feldman]

Scott,  I have the GN on the build table right now. It came to me with one ball link missing. Steve sent me another. I am very suspicious of arf controls. I have had arf noblers and a couple of Cardinals. The noblers where known to have bad controls so I replaced them with 100% Tom Morris controls. The GN on the table has been converted to a Tom Morris bellcrank and it has attached lead outs. Now that you have had this problem I am going to check all the supplied ball links and see what is with them (plastic)? I did not like the fit off the adaptors to carbon rod as others have said. In other words I have to assure myself that none of the parts are the ones supplied with the kit. The cardinals are all equipped with the supplied controls. However I do not like the way the leadouts where finished with tubing crimps. I have not had any failures with them. I believe your GN can easily be repaired by stripping off all the SLC and get back to the bare wood. As it has little flying time oil should be absent. Once it is stripped then you can do the needed repairs and then finish it however you wish. Thank you for reporting this you have saved a lot of us a similar experience.

Chuck Stuart Fl.

[Scott Hartford]

Yeah, the funny part is I have a TopFlite ARF Nobler( with the cheesy controls) that has hundreds of flights on it and I really like the way it flies so I thought I would build the GN and put a front row finish on it. I don't know what I am going to do with this plane yet, but a few thoughts that have surfaced involve fire. I'll have to wait till those go away......

[john e. holliday]

Scott, as already stated don't pitch the plane yet.  Set it to the side until you get into the mood to work on something.  The "Brodak Oriental" was one of my favorite planes that went in at Iowa contest.  The plane to me was a total loss as the center section was trash.  The fuselage was a shambles and he stab was broken.  The only thing I salvaged was the landing gear and bellcrank.  Anyway I am going to check out my "UHP Nobler" real close.  DOC Holliday

[Bob Reeves]

Yeah, the funny part is I have a TopFlite ARF Nobler( with the cheesy controls) that has hundreds of flights on it and I really like the way it flies so I thought I would build the GN and put a front row finish on it. I don't know what I am going to do with this plane yet, but a few thoughts that have surfaced involve fire. I'll have to wait till those go away......

Please trust me, it ain't gonna be that bad, if I can pull the bellcrank completely out of an assembled Nobler surly you can get in far enough to replace the control rod. It's only balsa and a little glue.. I would bet you won't add 1/2 ounce with all the repairs and even if it's a full ounce that 40 won't care. If I was closer I would say bring it over.. We'll fix it..

[Scott Hartford]

Thanks Bob!, I'm sure it is all possible, it's just right now I hate looking at it. I'll get over it I'm sure, I'm no stranger to crashed planes as I fly a lot of RC and have had some doozies! It just stings a bit right now......

[Richard Grogan]

Hey Scott, I PM'd you..

[Scott Hartford]

Hey Richard, Thanks!

[SteveMoon]

Scott, All: I have been in contact with my supplier in China
and he assures me that these ball links are made from nylon,
not plastic. He also told me they have used them for years
in their heavy duty helicopter kits without any problems. So,
these are not untested. I am not sure what happened here,
and I sure hate it. I have been in contact with Scott to see
if we can figure something out.

Thanks, Steve

[Bryan Higgins]

The ball links where screwed on too far.  The rod bottomed out putting pressure on the ends of the molded links.  I have
done this once myself. 

[Leo Mehl]

I don't use ball links or anything plastic in my controls and do not trust the leadout wire you get these days. I use solid bent rod and if you do it right will last longer than the plane. It also run just as smooth as ball linke if you bush the horns with brass tubing and i will admit it takes a little longer and is a little harder to do but have had this kind of system last for over 20 years. I always put in safty block on the push rod just in case the solder joint desides to let go. I have seen all kinds of plastic parts break that weren't supposed to so I just don't use them. I have planes sitting at home that the control system is over 10 years old and they are still in perfect shape. I also use bicycle shifting cable for leadouts because i don't trust the new brittle cables they sell. The control system is the heart of the plane so I do not save wieght there. I will try to save it other places but not in the control system.

[billbyles]

The ball links where screwed on too far.  The rod bottomed out putting pressure on the ends of the molded links.  I have
done this once myself. 

I don't think so.  Looks to me like Scott took all precautions to not bottom the threaded rods, and in fact his photo shows that the link broke well away from the threaded hole...the break did not even expose the threaded hole.  Not sure how you can be so sure of yourself when you weren't there to see things close up.  You seem to be ignoring the information that Scott showed. 

I am sure that Steve Moon will work with Scott to get this resolved.  In the meanwhile, posting your opinion of what happened should be done with the disclaimer that it is "your opinion" and not stating that it is a fact which you really don't know.  The fact that you did have a failure due to your bottoming out the threads does not mean that somebody else could not have a failure due to another cause entirely.