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Online Motorman

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« on: September 07, 2018, 08:01:09 PM »
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« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 08:16:46 AM by Motorman »

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Modern Stunt Max RPM
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2018, 08:21:39 PM »
My guess is around 11,500.

I used to set my RJ65 at about 10,000 on the ground with a Eather 13x4.25 2 blade. I just tested that exact prop on an electric and it needed close to 11,000 ground rpm to get a similar lap speed. Then take into account the pipe break and it might be another 500 rpm, hence my 11,500 guess.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Modern Stunt Max RPM
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2018, 02:27:08 PM »
I've been comparing props lately and found my 3 blade electric prop is not that much different than something Brian Eather makes for a large glow engine. I made my E prop a little on the thick side so I could use it for smaller glow engines, for example at full size it's a good 12.5x5.5 electric prop and reduced to a 10.5x4.5 it's thick enough for an LA 46 ect. and could even get trimmed down to an 8.5x4 for an LA25 although that's allot of work for a sport plane.

I'm wondering if it would be strong enough for a full size glow powered stunt plane. I just want to use a racing 40 to spin one of my props up to see if it seems strong enough for flight testing.

So my question is what, on average, is the max flight RPM of a large modern glow engine like a Ro-Jet 65 or something.

     I would guess a little higher than Paul, since I have launched near 12,000 rpm at times (like the 97 NATs), but almost certainly less than 13,000.

     I don't think the RPM is the critical issue, anyway. What has concerned me is the torque variation over a firing cycle (2 or 4). For a nominal tens of in-ounces of average torque, even a wimpy engine like an ST46 peaks at thousands of inch-ounces. That will cause a substantial oscillation of the torque over a rev, effectively, driving the prop blades to get behind the hub, then spring back ahead of the hub, essentially causing the blades to want to whip back and forth in-plane. That will cause fatigue. Note that running at maximum RPM doesn't mean that you have the maximum torque variation - in fact, it's almost 50% to twice as much when you are 4-stroking, and the frequency is lower, meaning more deflection for a given amount of energy.

    Tread very carefully, there's no good analytical way to address this without a lot more information and a lot of work.

     Brett

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Modern Stunt Max RPM
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2018, 07:51:11 PM »
Concur on the "be careful."

It is hard even for traditional, full scale prop manufacturers like Sensenich. They tried to make an aluminum prop for homebuilt aircraft a few years back. Just like a Cessna or Piper prop, right? No. Even though the same engine and same horsepower, the speed ranges of the homebuilts needed more pitch. No problem, either add twist to the existing forging or make a new forging that starts with more so that you don't have to tweak (stress) so much. Good now, right? No, not so much. Problem was that a slightly smaller diameter and greater pitch had different stiffness and moved the resonances (you have to account for a large number of harmonics for the blade to avoid fatigue issues, not just the first two or three...or even half dozen) and the harmonics were excited and sitting right in the cruise power band of the Lycoming. I think that project finally resulted in a restriction that prohibited operation between such and such rpms. That kept it from being very popular, I believe. I didn't order one, even though I wanted one from a maintenance and reliability standpoint over wood.

To Brett's point about the power pulses and not the rpm--the rpm if constant is not an alternating stress and does not induce fatigue. The power pulses do. And there is likely a combined alternating load case that might be important. Not just the bending mode from lift, but in-disc bending from the once per cycle firing (angular accelerations) plus the torsion on the blade since it is unlikely that you have the blade shape perfectly balanced to achieve zero moment about the blade axis. In fact, this would only be possible at one design point. All the blades I have built I tried to put excess area behind the axis of the blade. Thus it flattens out with load. If the blade is not stiff, then at least it is not divergent. Etc.

There is a reason that AMA banned metal props on models. No hobbiest can do the analysis and testing needed to ensure it will be safe. (Unless you do it all empirically such as HALT/HASS.) So they decided that we should just not go there. I just saw a metal prop from the 1940's(?) in someone's collection that was just made out of thick sheet metal, twisted and airfoiled. On anything more powerful than something like an O&R it would be seriously scary.  Also remember that wood has very good damping which is an important feature in fatigue situations. Wood is often considered fatigue resistant. Not sure I ever saw anyone analyzing wood for six million cycles....   For composites, depending on what you are using for resin, a carbon prop may or may not have much damping if I recall my comparison sheet correctly. I'd bet that a resin hard enough to work well in the prop hub (avoid thermal creep due to mounting compressive forces) might have very low damping. But the fatigue life should be very good if it is not operating at too high an alternating stress level. See the rough graphical comparison I borrowed off the internet.

Interesting project. Good luck, Motorman

Dave

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Modern Stunt Max RPM
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2018, 05:35:55 AM »
I’ve been watching quite closely at ic engines with folding props, both geared (a little under 10000 rpm) and direct drive (30000+ rpm). These props have no stopper to stop the blades from turning forward.
One might think that such pulsations would be visible with such props, but there is absolutely zero front-back movement. So I guess that the centripetal (?) force eliminates most of them forces.
Also, I have never had any issues with dozens of my 3-bladed wood props, even when some “specialists” have claimed that they are made against good engineering principles. Well, I’m not an engineer, how would I know.
Anyway, Both my engines and props ate tested untill 14000rpm, just out of curiosity. L

Offline Jim Kraft

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Re: Modern Stunt Max RPM
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2018, 06:22:35 AM »
Some of the SAM old timer flyers are using electric props on Ohlsson's for Texaco. They are restricting the intake so the engines are not running maybe over 5,000 rpm. I have never asked them what they tach at. As far as I know they have no problems with doing that. They do believe they get better performance per ounce of gasoline by running the electric props.
Jim Kraft

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Modern Stunt Max RPM
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2018, 12:25:18 PM »
Some of the SAM old timer flyers are using electric props on Ohlsson's for Texaco. They are restricting the intake so the engines are not running maybe over 5,000 rpm. I have never asked them what they tach at. As far as I know they have no problems with doing that. They do believe they get better performance per ounce of gasoline by running the electric props.

   I am not at all surprised about the electric props being more efficient, and I wouldn't be nearly as concerned about these wimpy early ignition engine like the Ohlsson at low revs. But even a relatively ancient stunt engine like the ST46 can produce an alarming amount of peak torque at substantial revs, and I can only guess that something like a PA75/RO-Jett 76 is maybe 5- 10X as much.

    Brett

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Modern Stunt Max RPM
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2018, 07:33:34 PM »
youd need a very fine pitch prop for mega revs , then there might be a bit of gyroscopic stuff going on , as youd still need a bit of diameter .


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