Master Class

[peabody]

Has anyone any feedback about the Master Class that Allan Goff flew at his contest?
I really think it's a great idea, and talking it over yesterday, the guys around here think it's cool.
Thanks

[Crist Rigotti]

The FCM contest isn't till late August.  So I don't think there is any news yet on how it went.

[Matt Colan]

Didn't a few years ago or in the 90s, didn't the circle burners have a masters class?

[john e. holliday]

We don't need a Master Class until someone can fly the perfect pattern.  Have fun,  DOC Holliday

[Doug Moon]

We don't need a Master Class until someone can fly the perfect pattern.  Have fun,  DOC Holliday

We dont need another class.  

After a few years of masters class then you will have the same guys who are left in expert winning all the time in that class.  Then what?  Double expert but not masters....??  Where is this going?

[Trostle]

There are problems with trying to establish a "Masters Class".

What are the criteria to be placed in the masters class?

Is it just a step up in the PAMPA (now AMA) skill classes?  If so, are there restrictions of how to move up to the masters class?  Now, anybody can choose to fly in the expert class regardless of skill or contest record.  Would the same apply to the masters class.  I know of one contest on the West Coast several years ago where a Masters class category was used.  The idea was to move some of the top expert fliers from that category to allow some of the less skilled experts to win a top place in the contest.  When only two people initially intered based on Nationals placings and qualifying records, another pilot entered  the Masters class with no Nats record so he could be assured a third place trophy.

If the personal Nats record is used, how far back should the personal Nats peformance be used to place an individual in the Masters class?

If the Nats record is not used, what other criteria should be used?.  Somehow, just advancing to the next skill class would seem to result in the same thing that we have now where all the top fliers of a region will migrate to that new top class where they already are in a top class.

On the surface, having a masters class sounds kind of neat.  However, until a reasonable set of standards is established, it could proove rather cumbersome and can lead to some rather awkward situations.

Keith

[John Miller]

While I am in basic agreement with Kieth, I can also, as it seems, he does, find a soft spot for a Master Class.

I remember the incident he speaks of. I'll bet it wouldn't have happened if the individual would have had to fly in that class exclusivly once entered. That I fear was the draw back to the trial implementation at that time.

A set of criteria could be established and used. Perhaps a trial period of one rules cycle to see how it played out, after which it could be reviewed, and either accepted, or dropped.

I see a Master Class as the very best, of the best, and it would be somewhat of an honor, in my estimation, to be included in that class.

Criteria could be wins and or placings from the past 10 years Nat's and WC's

Invitation from, or recommendation from a panel, of current Master Class pilots could be another criteria. I especially like the idea, that if a pliot chooses to fly in Master Class, He flies in it for at least the next rules cycle, or perhaps ten years.

Also, since there's a reason, based on the above to become a member of this Class, there shouild be methodoligy to step down, due to inactivity, or whatever reasonable criteria, and re enter Expert Class.

[Clayton Smith]

Perhaps the criteria for a Masters Class of CL Aerobatics should be based on the model aircraft specifications.  Suggest that a scale model plus or minus 10% be the spec.  No cartoon scale. 

[Alan Hahn]

<snip>..... When only two people initially intered based on Nationals placings and qualifying records, another pilot entered  the Masters class with no Nats record so he could be assured a third place trophy.
....<snip>

Keith

According to the rule book:

4. Skill Class Challenges. It is the responsibility of the
Contest Director to settle any disputes over the placing of
a competitor in a particular skill class. The CD has the
authority to change the skill class of a competitor to higher
or lower classes if, in his/her opinion, that
competitor is placed in the wrong class; however, the CD
should use extreme care in doing so. This is to prevent a
competitor from picking a skill class lower
or higher than his/her ability just to win a ―cheap
trophy.‖ Protests by a competitor over a change in
his/her skill class should be made to the Contest Director
and only the CD shall have final ruling on the skill class
placement.


I always liked that rule!

[peabody]

Okay then....points all well taken....especially Crist's about not having the results from the FCM event.

Yes, the GSCB tried a Masters Class several years ago.....with the wrong criteria, I believe (the qualification then was that the flyer had placed in the TOP FIVE in Open at the Nats or flown on the US Team [or alternate] in the past five years...) and Windy was the only qualifier locally.

My thoughts today are that almost exactly as Allen proposed: anyone that has made the TOP TWENTY in Open at the Nats in the last decade is in.....I don't want to "boot" anyone for winning a local contest....

My reasons for using a Master Class are manifold: primarily because some of the lower level Experts (locally) are becoming discouraged and are not practicing as much as they did when they were at the top of Advanced....I also would welcome a Master Class because it creates a bigger pool with which to draft judges....at our June Stunt Meet the concept was very well received......although it was felt that a flier should be able to volunteer to fly Master Class even if they don't qualify by another criteria.

I am not advocating flying Master at the Nationals.,....classes there are already screwed up.

Thanks

[Wynn Robins]

 "This is to prevent a
competitor from picking a skill class lower
or higher than his/her ability just to win a ―cheap
trophy.‖ "

I used to compete in sports to win trophies, then I found out you can BUY trophies - now I am good at EVERYTHING.    Demetri Martin - Comic

[Alan Hahn]

"This is to prevent a
competitor from picking a skill class lower
or higher than his/her ability just to win a ―cheap
trophy.‖ "

I used to compete in sports to win trophies, then I found out you can BUY trophies - now I am good at EVERYTHING.    Demetri Martin - Comic

At least I hope he buys expensive trophies!

[john e. holliday]

The thought just hit me.  This is like local contests where Exp and Adv are combined.  There were several of each class, but, not enough for one class.  The Exp's were beaten by the Adv fliers on that day.  The next contest at a different location had same people show as well as others in which there was separate classes.  Adv flieres were told they had to fly in Exp as they beat the Exp fliers last time. 

The preceding is just a scenario and has not really happened yet.  In our part of the country if you consistently win in a class you move up.  As someone has stated already,  "What do you do when the Master Class is fully loaded"?

Having fun,  DOC Holliday

[peabody]

I've read the arguments....excepting Doc's, they seem thoughtful.
I believe that a criteria is established as far as qualifying for the class (past ten years Nats performance, OR voluntarily).
Leaving is pretty much the same...inactivity or lack of Nats performance...
I am going to press the GSCB to try it, and will watch for the results and opinions from Allen's contest.....
Thanks

[Steve Helmick]

I'm against adding another "Uberclass". But I'd be (really!) good with moving some "Experts" down to Advanced. 

Our problem is that Expert is pretty crowded, but not many of those fly well enough to contend for a trophy. Some might not see this as a problem, I suppose, but it makes a long day for the judging crew for Expert and a short day for Advanced judges. That's a problem! We're getting too old to judge for 7 hours a day, even with a half hour off for lunch and a couple of of potty breaks.  Steve

[Bill Little]

I believe that while a *Masters* class would up the *possibility* of the local Experts having a better chance at a *Trophy* at a local contest, the problems of obtaining Judges is very real in some areas.  Plus the whole matter of people moving *UP* in class is also a very real concern in some areas....

We have discussed the advancement situation many time before and there is no real criteria that holds up, across the Nation to address it. 

I do know of an Ex Walker Trophy winner who left the hobby for years.  Upon return there were skill classes and he was forced to fly Expert in his first contest back. 

Unfortunately, our societal expectations are such that everyone deserves a Trophy for participating.  I think we should go with the prevalent Little League theory of presenting everyone with a trophy if they show up.  Right?  That's were things have gone and it is an expectation for many.  After serving a life time coaching at much higher levels, I can say that the premise is extremely faulted.

Mongo

[Dennis Adamisin]

I dunno, but it seems it would be easier to make a stronger case for REDUCING the number of skill classes, especially at a lot of local meets.

A Master's class sounds like another round of self gratification (oh stop it, you know what I mean!)

Halos are made to be broken, not artificially propped up.

[Bob Reeves]

Have no feelings on a Masters Class one way or the other but adding classes doesn't seem to me like it's a big deal..

As far as judges, fly the Experts, Masters and even Advanced on the same circle in front of the same judges.. If the judges do their job it won't even matter in what order. The tabulator simply posts the scores in the proper class on the board.

PhotoTrophies will solve any award/trophy problem. If you need additional trophies just print them or if you don't have a 3rd place you haven't bought a trophy that would go unused. Picture frames are inexpensive and can be saved for another time.

[Ted Fancher]

Okay then....points all well taken....especially Crist's about not having the results from the FCM event.

My reasons for using a Master Class are manifold: primarily because some of the lower level Experts (locally) are becoming discouraged and are not practicing as much as they did when they were at the top of Advanced....

Thanks

P'body,

Now, don't fall over Rich, but ... You and I are in agreement on the problem (although probably not the best solution ... an example of which I aint' really got!)

The discouragement factor is very real and nothing new.  WAM used skill classes out west here for literally decades before PAMPA decided to do so.  We had very much the same problems.  Very good fliers would improve to the point that they (deservedly) would score well enough in advanced to qualify for Expert but would then stall out against that small group of dedicated individuals that exist everywhere stunt is popular for whom the event is more than a pastime.  In order to compete effectively against such "semi-pros" would require more commitment than most were willing to dedicate and over a period of time their activity would drop off if not disappear entirely.

I'm not sure what the solution is ... only that proliferation of events/classes will almost certainly prove to only move the same problem to a different "name" category ... the only long term effect being increased cost and difficulty in fielding a "full bore" skill class event.

The problem with stunt and skill classes is the subjectivity by which we rank our performances ... and I don't see a realistic solution to that issue.  While a difficult task, flying the pattern well is by no means impossible for a person of average or better neuromuscular capability.  As a result of these two factors the eventual progression of talented people to the highest skill category is almost certainly predictable and difficult to eliminate via massaging criteria.

For instance. limiting any "Masters" category to those who attend our Nats and Team Trials will preclude the opportunity for very talented local people who are unable to attend such events regularly to be recognized for their abilities.  Including local events for such qualifications brings the problem of localize judging seeking its own high level of scores irrespective of actual performance thus bringing up the problem of qualifying fliers by "scores".  I see it as a classic dog chasing its tail problem.

More than happy, however, to entertain suggestions for how to resolve the problem of burn out/discouragement.

Ted

[James C. Johnson]

The problem with stunt and skill classes is the subjectivity by which we rank our performances

I always thought that the point system used was good enough to determine at the local level who is a "Master" who is an Expert.. if you fly long and hard enough the points get harder and harder to come by.. I often thought anyone who consistently scores 535 or higher should be regarded as a Master.. and that would be the same subjectivity we are using now to determine classes..

The thing is, we know who those fliers are.. and CDs do too.. and then again if you don't practice... like me.. one could bounce back and forth from Expert back to Advanced for years.. 

If nothing else those pilots who reach the 535-540 point level could be acknowledged with a certificate of achievement. Most of the Top Pilots don't need another trophy.. what they need in more people dedicated to compete against..  and I believe PAMPA has in respects done this with a class system.. there are a lot of great "Stunt Masters" out there today because of this effort.. maybe that is why the thought of "adding" another class gets mentioned from time to time.

A Master's class sounds like another round of self gratification (oh stop it, you know what I mean!)

Self Gratification? Do you actually think some one burns 50 gallons of fuel a year or slams a work of functional art into the pavement out of self gratification... I don't. I see it as one's idea of dedication to a hobby/sport much like Tiger Woods putting his time in on the golf course.. In golf they have the Masters.. maybe a better way would be a vote by "peers" .. an invitation of sorts to compete prodigiously.. the best of the best.. In every sport we have Champions and Heroes.. Super Bowls.. World Series.. The Finals... a Master Class would recognize those have paid their dues.. with their determination and dedication.

The goal of a Master Class would not be fame and fortune... it would be a great way to recognize our "heroes" achievement to that dedication and their love for designing, building and flying this great adventure in what I believe is one of the best and hardest events in all of Model Aviation..

Jim

[Bill Little]

Hi Jim, Ted,

I do not disagree that there is a jump between Expert and *EXPERT*.  There aer those who are in a class above the other *experts*, that is a given.  But that is the case in any endeavor where there is competition.  Not all PGA Tour Pros are Tiger Woods, there are those down in the category from 100-150 in the rankings.  Never the less, the PGA does not put Tiger, Ernie Els, Phil Mickelson, etc., in a different class at their tournaments.  There ARE Invitational tournaments such as The Masters, and The US Open which have *qualificatons* that must be met to gain entry.  This is just like our National Championships which are going on now.  When the Tour goes to a common stop, everyone eligible and those Monday qualifiers get to bang heads with Tiger.  It is no different when anyone goes to our Huntersville meet and signs up for Expert.  Derek Barry, Randy Smith (both recent Top 5 NATS pilots), Dale Barry, etc., etc., are likely to be flying there and it is the game you play.  I am in agreement with Denny to a good part.  I see Beg., a class for full pattern (Sportsman??) and an*Expert* class (pick the name).  Int./Adv. seem to almost be redundant.  If you can fly the entire pattern, then you can fly the entire pattern.  Some of the *hot shot* Advanced locals might would HAVE to go up to the top level then.  As it is now, they don't/won't.

Burn out/loss of interest?  That happens in everything we do to people at all times.  We see people come and go, some look for an excuse to get out.  They just lose interest!  If *winning* is all that is important, then they need to stay in the lower classes until they win their share, or their egos are boosted enough to move up.... our out.  There IS NO CURE for a burn out/loss of interest problem.  We are not all psycho analysts practicing our trades while at model airplane meets.  A lot of it goes back to the unreal/impractical expectations that are set these days by society as a whole.  Did Michael Jordan quit when he was cut from his High School JV team?  If a person has an interest (true love) of any activity, they will continue.  Otherwise the activity is akin to the new Christmas present....... lots of play time on Christmas Day, but after a few days it is left in the box.

Big Bear

[phil c]

,  "What do you do when the Master Class is fully loaded"?

Having fun,  DOC Holliday

What you do, especially at a meet loaded with good flyers, is get judges who have demonstrated that they can reliably separate flyers who score just a couple point apart.

[Will Hinton]

Most of you have totally misunderstood the reason for our wanting to emplement a masters' class at the FCM weekend.  It is NOT to stroke the ego of the masters class, or anybody's for that matter.  It is to (hopefully) further enhance the classes below that so many of the expert and advanced flyers are not coming to see who's flying for third or fourth place.
I remember the old saying when Wooley used to show up in the southern Ohio area.  "Okay guys, who's flying for second?"  That's just one example of our intentions.  If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but we're gonna do it, Allen and I are dedicated to trying it this year and then we'll take another look during the post gathering.  we'll have a discussion period for all to participate in.  FCM weekend is August 22 & 23.
Blessings,
Will

[Allen Goff]

'MASTER'S CLASS AT THE FCM.

I REALLY SHOULD HAVE KNOW BETTER THAN TO POST THIS INFORMATION ON THIS SITE. YOU DO WHAT YOU WANT AT YOUR CONTEST........, AND I'LL RUN MY CONTEST THE WAY I WANT. IT NEVER WAS OPEN FOR DISCUSSION,, JUST FYI.

JUST TRYING TO HELP THOSE WHO ALWAYS PLACE 4TH, 5TH,......ECT.
BET I'LL KEEP MY POSTING TO A MINIMUN HERE ON OUT.

ALLEN.

[peabody]

Thanks Allen...I am very enthusiastic about Master Class and hope that it works well for you....

Thanks Ted.. my goal was/is not so much to bring dispirited back to the trophy capturing mode as to free up some judges....about the only thing that I am not in favor of in Allen's outline is the promotion of the winner of the big local contest into Master....it will, almost by definition, empty Expert and fill Master.  Rather, I would like to see voluntary participation in Master Class. The ten year classification also allows folks to "revert" to regular Expert class....

I have posed the concept to fliers locally and there is very positive reaction....I'll do an e-mail poll of those that have participated as well...

Thanks for the thoughts.....

[James C. Johnson]

IT NEVER WAS OPEN FOR DISCUSSION,,

Forum...

1.
a. The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.
b. A public meeting place for open discussion.
c. A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.
2. A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation.
3. A court of law; a tribunal.

Allen, I am glad you posted .. one of the problems with just about anything is "business as usual"..

it will, almost by definition, empty Expert and fill Master.

I seriously doubt this will happen.. what I would like to see is a Master Class at the larger contests.. here in the Northwest that would be the Regionals. The rest of the season would be the same..

Too bad we don't have a Bill Bennett to promote a Tournament of Champions for F2B.. the original prize money in 1974 was $5000 for first and was won by Hanno Prettner. This made his name a household word among the modeling community....the prize money peaked to $40,000 in 1997...

I think it is a great idea to try new things... if not we would all be flying Noblers and Impacts.. because winning is everything..isn't it?

One of my local heroes is Randy P. he is an experimenter.. innovator... and walks to his own beat.. Pat Johnston does too.. that is the beauty of modeling.. it can encompass way more than many of us really understand yet lets us all be as unique as we want to be..

Jim

[Charlie Pate]

 Personally: I feel work is needed in the beginner and intemediate classes.
 This Class (CLPA) is shrinking at an alarming rate.
 If things aren,t done to build the numbers at the entry level , there may soon be no classes!
The "Masters " have nothing to prove. They have exibited their skill, dedication,and willingness to do what it takes to
  achieve what they have. Should they truely want to form and fly in a Master class , they could make it happen
quicker than Bill Little and Humpy wheeler could down a can of Viennas; (with hot sauce of course)!
 If your into hero worship; have at it!
 If your into CLPA have at it !
                                                                 The choice is yours (ours) 

[Bob Reeves]

Personally: I feel work is needed in the beginner and intemediate classes.
 This Class (CLPA) is shrinking at an alarming rate.
 If things aren,t done to build the numbers at the entry level , there may soon be no classes!
The "Masters " have nothing to prove. They have exibited their skill, dedication,and willingness to do what it takes to
  achieve what they have. Should they truely want to form and fly in a Master class , they could make it happen
quicker than Bill Little and Humpy wheeler could down a can of Viennas; (with hot sauce of course)!
 If your into hero worship; have at it!
 If your into CLPA have at it !
                                                                 The choice is yours (ours) 

Not to change the subject but the reality is when our generation dies off so will CL. The few now involved under 50 will have nobody to fly with or contests to attend and will loose interest.

[john e. holliday]

Trying my best with the grand kids.  DOC Holliday

[dale gleason]

If'n ya' ask me, the master's class already exists. It's being flown today in Muncie Indiana. Anyone can enter and fly in it. Anyone with just a hint of that talent/spark can get there. All one has to do is put forth the effort these flyers have. Warning- it's a considerable amount of effort; "Cyber-flyers", who do their flying at keyboards, will never make it.
 A special master class to move the "good" expert pilots up so the "not-so-good" experts can win a trophy is, to me, just dumbing down CLPA.  It's difficult for some folks to comprehend, but some flyers, (I'm one) would rather fly against the best as a measure of skill than to place highly and possibly even win a "dumbed-down" expert class.
FWIW,   dg

[James C. Johnson]

It's difficult for some folks to comprehend, but some flyers, (I'm one) would rather fly against the best as a measure of skill than to place highly and possibly even win a "dumbed-down" expert class.

I understand ... "a rising tide raises all ships"...

Jim

[Randy Powell]

>>But I'd be (really!) good with moving some "Experts" down to Advanced.<<

Cool, Steve. Can I fly Advanced at the next contest? Please?   

[steven yampolsky]

If the Nats record is not used, what other criteria should be used?.  Somehow, just advancing to the next skill class would seem to result in the same thing that we have now where all the top fliers of a region will migrate to that new top class where they already are in a top class.

On the surface, having a masters class sounds kind of neat.  However, until a reasonable set of standards is established, it could proove rather cumbersome and can lead to some rather awkward situations.

Keith, you made some good points. I would like to suggest a few concepts for us to think through:

1) "Master Class" is not an AMA class and therefore does not requrie one to have ever entered the NATS. Perhaps, only local(non-nats) types of contest results should be taken into consideration.
2) We should consider migration rules not just TO the master class but FROM the master class as well.
3) Scale contest require competitors to provide documentation for their scale models. Perhaps we should consider documentation as the basis for entering master class at a contest. Sorta "Hi, I'm joe schomoe. Here are three 1st place in Expert plaques/papers I've won in the last X years. I would like to enter Master Class".

I am not the smartest nut in the nuthouse so perhaps we as a group could come up with a decent definition.

Steve

[Jim Thomerson]

I don't have a dog in the fight, being a mid-level Advanced flier and concentrating on OTS anyway. 

One possibility would be a different pattern for the Master class; one with only very difficult maneuvers.

Would it be possible for recognized Masters to fly Expert, but to fly exhibition flights which would be scored and posted, but would not be considered in first, second, etc.?  They would receive a certificate of appreciation with their score listed. 

[Dave Adamisin]

Most of you have totally misunderstood the reason for our wanting to emplement a masters' class at the FCM weekend.  It is NOT to stroke the ego of the masters class, or anybody's for that matter.  It is to (hopefully) further enhance the classes below that so many of the expert and advanced flyers are not coming to see who's flying for third or fourth place.
I remember the old saying when Wooley used to show up in the southern Ohio area.  "Okay guys, who's flying for second?"  That's just one example of our intentions.  If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but we're gonna do it, Allen and I are dedicated to trying it this year and then we'll take another look during the post gathering.  we'll have a discussion period for all to participate in.  FCM weekend is August 22 & 23.
Blessings,
Will

Hi Will. I get it that you are being altruistic and trying to help those that need to "get a win". I can only say that I will only compete with the "best" that are there. I would not accept someones arbitrary assignment of a lower class. The object is to be the best. You have to commit to that or you won't ever be the best. The difference between the "pros" and everyone else is a certain amount of natural ability and the oppertunity to dedicate themselves to what they want accomplish. Other than that you might as well hand out participation trophies.

[Kim Mortimore]

"While a difficult task, flying the pattern well is by no means impossible for a person of average or better neuromuscular capability..."  Ted Fancher

Oh, if only that were all it takes!  Well, maybe it is for airline pilots, aerospace mega-engineers, monster bikers and other lean, mean, stunt flyin' meat machines!

"Burn out/loss of interest?  That happens in everything we do to people at all times.  We see people come and go, some look for an excuse to get out..."  Bill Little

Yes, and since this is a hobby/sport/avocation rather than a job or other committment, no excuse is really needed.  Each one is free to come or go as he pleases.  Much of the burn out/loss of interest/discouragement which thins the ranks of stunt happens well below Expert level.     

Kim Mortimore

[Steve Helmick]

>>But I'd be (really!) good with moving some "Experts" down to Advanced.<<

Cool, Steve. Can I fly Advanced at the next contest? Please?   

The next contest is Richmond BC's "Western Canada Stunt Champs". Alan Resinger is CD, so you'd have to ask him. From past history, I'd say there's less likely to be a surplus of Experts at this contest, but it depends on who all shows from the USA* and Brazil.  Steve 

* I was tempted to put "from the lower 55", but didn't think many would get the joke. Could be wrong, of course.

[Wayne Collier]

Self Gratification? Do you actually think some one burns 50 gallons of fuel a year or slams a work of functional art into the pavement out of self gratification... 

well ... er ... ah ... yeah

   ... or maybe because it's just plain fun to play with little airplanes ...
 
                         I don't get to participate in CL as much as some of you guys.  I've never entered a CL contest, but when I fire up a the engine on one of my planes, fly a few rounds and maybe do a loop or two, I feel "gratified"
and privileged.  I just really enjoy it -- usually even if I crash a time or two.

[Ted Fancher]

"While a difficult task, flying the pattern well is by no means impossible for a person of average or better neuromuscular capability..."  Ted Fancher

Oh, if only that were all it takes!  Well, maybe it is for airline pilots, aerospace mega-engineers, monster bikers and other lean, mean, stunt flyin' meat machines!

Hi Kim,

Note I didn't say it was "easy" to fly the pattern and "a piece of cake"  to make expert!  Nope, I said "difficult" and "NOT impossible" . That's exactly why the subject of a Masters class comes up on a regular  basis ... and for exactly the reason Rich stated.  I can't quantify it but I would be willing to place pretty good odds on the reality that more guys burn out after making expert than from beginner or advanced.  It is a reality that in areas where stunt competition is really keen that after a pretty good career earning trophies in the beginner and advanced ranks, they get few and far between when your competition starts to be guys like Windy, or David or Paul or Al or etc. etc.  It becomes either a labor of love or one whereby you get your "strokes" from the other facets of the craft that make it a special undertaking.

Ted

[Dave Adamisin]

Hi Kim,

Note I didn't say it was "easy" to fly the pattern and "a piece of cake"  to make expert!  Nope, I said "difficult" and "NOT impossible" . That's exactly why the subject of a Masters class comes up on a regular  basis ... and for exactly the reason Rich stated.  I can't quantify it but I would be willing to place pretty good odds on the reality that more guys burn out after making expert than from beginner or advanced.  It is a reality that in areas where stunt competition is really keen that after a pretty good career earning trophies in the beginner and advanced ranks, they get few and far between when your competition starts to be guys like Windy, or David or Paul or Al or etc. etc.  It becomes either a labor of love or one whereby you get your "strokes" from the other facets of the craft that make it a special undertaking.

Ted

Hi Ted. I think that you have described that we already have a "masters" class. The expert class provides ample description of what it takes to be a master. You can fly the pattern certainly but you have the other qualifications that are required to get to the top or at least the desire to hone those other skills to have a chance to get there. Maybe the "thinning of the ranks" that occurs in expert is natural and correct.

[RandySmith]

""On the surface, having a masters class sounds kind of neat.  However, until a reasonable set of standards is established, it could proove rather cumbersome and can lead to some rather awkward situations.

Keith""

Hi Keith

Your above statement is absolutely correct, and You will never be able to have a Master's Class until you establish a national Judges training class and some type of criteria so the score will be more aligned with each other throughout the nation.
We had a Master's Ranking in PAMPA many years ago. I was ranked in the Master's Class  from my scores in Georgia and N Carloina.
 My Florida scores just barley got me into expert.
You would also have to normalize the scores in some manner.

Regards
Randy

[Bradley Walker]

CLPA will be shrinking in coming years, not growing...  in my opinion, it needs another class like it needs a hole in the head.

I see numbers in District 8 being half (or less) than they are now in 10 years.  Maybe more thought should be put into that fact, and not on the guys who have been flying all their lives.

As I understand it, the the Masters Class was something that would have been established to allow the younger guys to see the light of day.  If the finishes at the Nats is any measure, that is not necessary.

[john e. holliday]

Only way to get any hobby to grow is to get off our duff and start working.  There may be a yong neighbor that just can't afford to get into it.  How many engines do we have just collecting dust.  Planes hanging on the hook that we do not fly, but, with a little work make terrific trainers.  They may not stay with it long enough to actually want to build, but, if they will fly I am for it.  DOC Holliday