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Author Topic: Making it work ... Eventually  (Read 1432 times)

Offline Randy Powell

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Making it work ... Eventually
« on: April 23, 2007, 02:22:03 PM »
I know all of us have built planes that initially were less than what we had hoped. Major or minor trim problems that wouldn't go away or that would take some sort of major rework to fix. I've suffered with planes for an entire season or ultimately splatted into to pavement because of one trim problem or another that I either couldn't manage to fix correctly or couldn't figure out or just because I didn't want to cut into a a plane.

Last weekend I flew a plane of my own design that I had been fighting since it was completed last fall. While I was fairly happy with it right from the start, it had a couple of trim issues that drove me nuts. One was pretty obvious. I simply designed the outboard flap too big. It generated too much lift and took a ton of tip weight to get the thing to turn levelly. That caused other problems (including some hinge and tracking problems). Truth was, I knew what I needed to do. I just didn't want to do it. The plane also suffered from a rather intense but brief "wiggle" on hard, outside control at 45 degrees and really poor tracking in level flight. Not so much a hunt as a certain jerkiness. Had no idea what was causing this. To top it off, it seemed impossible to get it to consistently turn and come out of a corner flat.

Anyway, after the season last year (and two disappointing contest appearances), I bit the bullet and cut the outboard flap off and built a new one that was still larger than the inboard, but by a substantially smaller margin. I also found out that when I put the landing gear into the plane, I managed to get pin the forward leadout behind it. The gear has a long torque arm (a trick I learned from Windy) that goes through the gear block and terminates in a hardwood block just under the covering on the top of the wing. As a result, I managed to get the forward leadout behind the gear leg causing some drag under tension. This certainly accounted for the hunting/jerking problem in level flight. Hard to be precise when the controls are dragging like that. I also found a rather large slow CA glop that much have dribbled down and pooled right on top of the elevator control horn. I found this, weirdly enough, using a dentist mirror and looking inside the control adjustment hatch. Had a fun time getting rid of that. The last problem was a little more straight forward. I had built the plane with just a touch too much down elevator. Just lenghtening the pushrod fixed the corner exit issues, thought the darned fairings don't line up perfectly now. Sigh... Always something.

Anyway, the point is, after all this nonsense and hunting down what seemed to be endless problems, I finally got to fly the plane last weekend at the Portland, Oregon contest. And surprise, surprise. The thing flies pretty well now. Still has a bit of that wiggle on hard outside corners at the top of the squares and horizontal eights, though it seem substantially reduced at this point. May need to think about some  modification to the rudder to help attend to this, but so far, it's not enough to be too annoying and staying away from hitting the controls too hard at the top of the maneuver seems to largely eliminate this.

So, don't give up on that new plane if it's not all you had hoped. As long as it's of reasonable weight and built decently straight, other problems can be tracked down and fixed. Eventually. I'm really starting to like this plane now.

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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Making it work ... Eventually
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2007, 05:54:33 PM »
AND it looks great in the air. I have to confess Randy, my opinion of jet styl is changing after watching both your creations fly, they do have  a presence in the air!
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Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: Making it work ... Eventually
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2007, 06:31:48 PM »
Hi Randy, would be nice to see some more pictures of her. Wish we had an expert that would help pick out some of the issues on plane around here. I just try to use the info from articles from forums and hope I make the right moves. Always seems like I go the wrong way first time, if she makes it to the next round usually have a little more luck. Thank all you guys that post articles that help the rest of us. Gary
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Making it work ... Eventually
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2007, 07:02:34 PM »
Mark,

Yea, I've been on a Jet kick, that's certain. I'll break it up when I build Walter's Colussus, I guess.

Gary,

I'll post a pic later. It's my own design that is about the size, more or less, of a Saturn. My buddy, Pat Johnston, has taught me a lot about trimming and any time Brett Buck talks about trim, I shut up and listen. He knows his stuff. One thing Pat taught me is, for instance, if you think the leadouts need to be moved back, move them back a lot to see if you're getting the effect you want. If it doesn't work, put them back. If it does, you'll probably fix the first problem, but maybe introduce something else. Start moving back toward the original position until the second problem goes away.

Hope that makes sense.
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Offline Mike Foley

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Re: Making it work ... Eventually
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2007, 08:52:16 PM »
   Absolutely love the Slider Randy. It looks like its moving fast while sitting still. Looks good on Video as well. I have your last complete flite on tape.  You guys that can design and build like that have my admiration

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Making it work ... Eventually
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2007, 11:11:27 PM »
Thanks, Mike.

Here's the picture I promised.
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Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: Making it work ... Eventually
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2007, 09:52:01 AM »
Mark,

Yea, I've been on a Jet kick, that's certain. I'll break it up when I build Walter's Colussus, I guess.

Gary,

I'll post a pic later. It's my own design that is about the size, more or less, of a Saturn. My buddy, Pat Johnston, has taught me a lot about trimming and any time Brett Buck talks about trim, I shut up and listen. He knows his stuff. One thing Pat taught me is, for instance, if you think the leadouts need to be moved back, move them back a lot to see if you're getting the effect you want. If it doesn't work, put them back. If it does, you'll probably fix the first problem, but maybe introduce something else. Start moving back toward the original position until the second problem goes away.

Hope that makes sense.
Fantastic looking plane, are you running tuned pipe? I still use the old style motors. Brett is very helpful to anyone, that will listen. Used to see him at all the contest, here in Fresno. Helped me and my son several times. He always has a smile and has the answer. I pulled an old skyray out of the rafter for some of the neighbor kids. Hadn't flown it in twenty years, plane came in hard on take off. Flew great in the air, checked tip weight. Engine off set is good, moved leadout back, on second flight. Checked wheel alignment, rudder off set. Added more weight to tip. Old junker did the same thing, once in the air flys great. Don't remember it acting that way years ago, Ha Ha. When engine stops has a real nice glide, nice touch down. I'm afraid to let the kids fly it, because lines may get caught in grass and turn plane towards them. You look at it and say I don't want to fly this, but once in the air the stupid plane looks great. I guess I'll have to find a different junker for the kids to learn on. I even checked everything with an incidence meter. Missing something, have a great day, Gary
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Making it work ... Eventually
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2007, 10:18:10 AM »
Gary,

Yes, the Silder uses an OS 40VF set up as Brett told me to.  :) Works like a sewing machine. Even sounds a bit like one.

Sounds like a tough problem. Single wheel?
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Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: Making it work ... Eventually
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2007, 10:43:17 AM »
Gary,

Yes, the Silder uses an OS 40VF set up as Brett told me to.  :) Works like a sewing machine. Even sounds a bit like one.

Sounds like a tough problem. Single wheel?
Single wheel, do you think it would help to install a regular landing gear? Had to move the leadout back to original spot. Plane yawed terribly, has decend line tension. It tracks well in level flight. Feels like you could let go of lines, because its flying itself. If it was jumping around or wouldn't come out of maneuvers, I would think balance was off. Does overhear eights, no problem, good line tension. What gets me is once the engine dies it has a nice decend to the ground. I even stalled it out, after it died and I could still recover it. Maybe its just been in the ground to many times. Years ago my neighbor kids would have fun learning to fly with her. I'm using a fox 36 re-timed for stunt.
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Making it work ... Eventually
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2007, 11:29:18 AM »
I just wondered if the hub on the wheel was wore out and cause it to turn in on takeoff.
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Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: Making it work ... Eventually
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2007, 11:57:05 AM »
I just wondered if the hub on the wheel was wore out and cause it to turn in on takeoff.
I'll check it. Thank you for your input. Just love your baby, glad she's working out for you. Keep them in the air, Gary
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Making it work ... Eventually
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2007, 12:03:30 PM »
Randy, dandelions, remember the dandelions,, nemisis of grass takeoffs!!!!!! lol
I had troubles with my Ukey for a time because the single wheel was on the outside of the fuse centerline which weighted the inside wing when it was on the wheel. It would want to come in on me when on grass, I moved the wheel inboard and it seemed to help FWIW.
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: Making it work ... Eventually
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2007, 12:13:17 PM »
Randy, dandelions, remember the dandelions,, nemisis of grass takeoffs!!!!!! lol
I had troubles with my Ukey for a time because the single wheel was on the outside of the fuse centerline which weighted the inside wing when it was on the wheel. It would want to come in on me when on grass, I moved the wheel inboard and it seemed to help FWIW.
Thank you Mark, I'll check it out, Gary
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Making it work ... Eventually
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2007, 02:25:48 PM »
Mark,

Remind me to tell you about the time that a dandelion hooked my line on takeoff. That was thrilling; in a cardiac arrest sort of way.
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