Losing tension on the third loop of the clover

[Matt Colan]

I now have my Ares flying extremely well, except one thing.  I added 1/2 ounce of tip weight and richened the motor up to slow the plane down.  I went from 4.8 lap times to 5.1, which is an improvement.  My last flight, I had line everywhere and good line tension, until the third loop of the clover.  The first loop was good and the second was ok, and as soon as I went up, it almost seemed like the motor bogged down and just ran out of steam.  That resulted in a quick third loop and as soon as I went inverted everything was fine, even going up on the wingover pullout of the 4 leaf.

I have the motor running at about 8600 RPM, with 1 1/2 ounce of tip weight.  I can't add anymore, since I have no room, I might be able to squeeze 1/4 ounce in and that's it.  I can't move the leadouts since there is no adjustable tip weight in it.  That is my one complaint now, but it seems to do this every so often, and the last time I flew, it was the last flight when that happened, every other flight was fine.  Is it something I have to live with, or what can I do to help it?

[Charlie Pate]

 D
Gee Matt
 Ive had a Lot of planes in my 50 plus years of flying.
 \Built many an over weight and poorly trimmed dog , but I can never remember having this problem.
    How is it on the sq eight when you come out of the inside loop and transition over into and later into the top or
  last corner of the eight ?
This is where I have trouble with overweight or mis trimmed planes.
 hoe bout the top of the verticle eignt ?

Does the engine sound like it turns less RPM ,at this point ,than when on the ground?
If it does, there is a very good chance there is a fuel draw problem.Maybe getting just a touch too lean!
Your engine is loaded the greatest when the plane is sitting on the ground.(i will Not debate this point )
 Of course if it sounds rich (burbly gurgley ) it could be getting too much fuel.
 Try doing the clover earlier in the  pattern schedule and see if it occurs(could be a tank or fuel level cause)
Also check positioning of the manuever.
 Please advise your findings . I will be interested to hear. 
Good luck!

[steven yampolsky]

I now have my Ares flying extremely well, except one thing.  I added 1/2 ounce of tip weight and richened the motor up to slow the plane down.  I went from 4.8 lap times to 5.1, which is an improvement.  My last flight, I had line everywhere and good line tension, until the third loop of the clover.  The first loop was good and the second was ok, and as soon as I went up, it almost seemed like the motor bogged down and just ran out of steam.  That resulted in a quick third loop and as soon as I went inverted everything was fine, even going up on the wingover pullout of the 4 leaf.

What kind of wind did you have? Clover is the only maneuver that takes up room both vertically as well as horizontally. It is very sensitive to the wind placement. Bias it too much to the right and you can get the problem you've described. 

[Matt Colan]

Hi Charlie,

The square 8 is just fine, never loses line tension anywhere.  The veritcal 8 is good, and I never lose line tension there.  The motor now is in a deep 4 cycle while in level flight, and on the wingover it goes into a soft 2 cycle or stays in the 4, but it still picks up RPM.  It did this in stunt heaven air, with about 75 degree temperatures, and a very light breeze, enough to move the wake turbulence.  It did this on a couple of my practice flights at Brodak but I was flying too fast so I figured the motor was lean and richened it up a little bit.  The motor runs almost 7 1/2 minutes on a full tank (4 oz), so I have plenty of fuel when I get to the clover.

What kind of wind did you have? Clover is the only maneuver that takes up room both vertically as well as horizontally. It is very sensitive to the wind placement. Bias it too much to the right and you can get the problem you've described. 

Steve, I had 75 degree temps, and a very light breeze, just enough to move the wake turbulence.

[EddyR]

Mat I have seen many top flyer's, Ted Fancher, for one whip the plane going into the clover to gain speed and momentum. This was before the powerful piped motors of today. It sounds like your plane is loosing to much speed and then line tension. You may not notice the speed loss but it is there. The answer is more useful power which you may be able to get by careful prop selection.You answered your own question when you slowed down the rpm.Get the rpm back up and control speed with the prop.
Ed

[steven yampolsky]

Steve, I had 75 degree temps, and a very light breeze, just enough to move the wake turbulence.

Matt,
Even though the model behaves properly during other parts of the pattern, it doesn't mean it is trimmed properly. Chances are the problem is most obvious to you during the clover maneuver. For example, I can never see effects of too much tip weight during any other maneuver except for turn 3 of the triangle. Every pilot is different.

I suspect two issues are at play here: model rolls during flap deflection and/or the handle is not set to neutral. Here's how i check for these items:

On a very calm day, fly overhead 8s with your body facing into the wind. Don't let the model descend below 45 degrees. Observe relative pull of the model( insides vs. outsides). keep flying 8's until you can tell for certain if the are pull differences or not.  This test will tell you if the model rolls when the flaps are deflected.

Onto handle setting. If the When making sharp turns, the model will tend to twist harder in one direction, causing excessive energy loss and loss of precise steering ability. Setting your neutral on the ground will only get you 50% there. I found that level flight(level AND inverted) is the best way to set the handle neutral. When in level flight, relax the hand and observe how the model responds. If it dives, you need to let out the bottom line, if it climbs, let out top line out. The final check is the most critical one: relax the hand and observe how high the model settles in level flight. A perfectly set neutral handle will cause the model fly at 5 without any input from the pilot. If you have to keep to steer the model towards the 5 foot level flight(level AND inverted), the handle is not set to neutral.


Just out of curiousity, what motor are you running and how long are your lines?

[Matt Colan]

This ties in with Ed's question to, so I'll answer both.  I'm running an OS 35S swinging a 10-6 top flite powerpoint at 8600 RPM.  I have 1 1/2 ounce of tip weight in it.  the lines are .015s at 60 feet eye to eye.  My handle is about as neutral as it's going to be, and I don't give any control input that I know of upright or inverted.  The plane does this every so often, I remember it did it once or twice at Brodak, not during official flights.  It did it once in the 4 flights I had the last time I flew.

[Bob Reeves]

Prop..... but I don't have a recommendation, been over 30 years since I ran an S, then we were running Rev-Up's

[Jim Oliver]

Sounds like too much tip weight for this size/weight model.......are you seeing any outboard wing "flips/dips" on hard pull outs?

Jim

[Balsa Butcher]

I run OS-35S' quite a bit.  The prop could be better.  Try and RSM 10-6. It is the best I have found for that engine (and I've tried a lot of them including the one you are currently using). 

[Dennis Adamisin]

I now have my Ares flying extremely well, except one thing.  I added 1/2 ounce of tip weight and richened the motor up to slow the plane down.  I went from 4.8 lap times to 5.1, which is an improvement.  My last flight, I had line everywhere and good line tension, until the third loop of the clover.  The first loop was good and the second was ok, and as soon as I went up, it almost seemed like the motor bogged down and just ran out of steam.  That resulted in a quick third loop and as soon as I went inverted everything was fine, even going up on the wingover pullout of the 4 leaf.

I have the motor running at about 8600 RPM, with 1 1/2 ounce of tip weight.  I can't add anymore, since I have no room, I might be able to squeeze 1/4 ounce in and that's it.  I can't move the leadouts since there is no adjustable tip weight in it.  That is my one complaint now, but it seems to do this every so often, and the last time I flew, it was the last flight when that happened, every other flight was fine.  Is it something I have to live with, or what can I do to help it?

Uniflow tank?  I shoulda thunk of this before...

When you get near the end of the run and the uniflow vent comes out of the fuel, the result is a slight richening.  Over the remaining run the engine speeds up some before it finally shuts down.

My guess is that you hit that spot at just that time...

[steven yampolsky]

Uniflow tank?  I shoulda thunk of this before...

When you get near the end of the run and the uniflow vent comes out of the fuel, the result is a slight richening.  Over the remaining run the engine speeds up some before it finally shuts down.

Ooh! That's a good one! Why didn't I think of it! 

[johnbyrne]

I had something similar with my ARF Nobler but it was the first loop.  I almost lost the plane several times (that bad).  I moved the leadouts far forward so that it pulled like a tank but was sluggish in the turns.  I then moved it back a little at a time for 6 flights...about 1/16" each flight.  At the end of 6 flights I had the tension and good turns.  The sweet spot for the lead out was VERY narrow.  Moving back more and so long tension.  

Then we had Joe Gilbert visit and he said the plane looked tail heavy.  I removed a very small amount of weight I had on the tail and what a difference.  The turns were not has hard but still plenty.  What happened though was rock stable level flight and truck pulling tension even during the clover.  It's a totally different plane.  I'm not experienced enough to suggest this would work for you and I'm not sure I understand you post about lead outs (you may not have adjustable ? ) but it worked for me so maybe give it a shot.  BTW, I had to fly 4.6 laps before and now can fly 5.1 on 60 foot lines with no problem.

[Charlie Pate]

Uniflow tank?  I shoulda thunk of this before...

When you get near the end of the run and the uniflow vent comes out of the fuel, the result is a slight richening.  Over the remaining run the engine speeds up some before it finally shuts down.

My guess is that you hit that spot at just that time...

This is why I suggested doing the manuever out of pattern schedule.
 Dennis should be able to answer any 35S question as the big Art bunch had them figured out.Their OS engines ran
 great and had power enough to pull planes bigger and heavier than yours at a championship level.

[Matt Colan]

Uniflow tank?  I shoulda thunk of this before...

When you get near the end of the run and the uniflow vent comes out of the fuel, the result is a slight richening.  Over the remaining run the engine speeds up some before it finally shuts down.

My guess is that you hit that spot at just that time...

That could be it Dennis, next time I'll fly, I'm going to pay attention to the motor to see if it richends up at all.

[Matt Colan]

Of the two full pattern flights I got today because the wind picked up a lot in the middle of my last flight.  When I did the four-leaf today, the first flight everything was fine and the Ares didn't lose tension on the third loop or anywhere in the flight.  The second flight the motor richened up when I went inverted after the third loop of the clover.  I guess Dennis was right about what he said about the tank.

[Steve Thomas]

Sounds like too much tip weight for this size/weight model.......are you seeing any outboard wing "flips/dips" on hard pull outs?
 

Interesting that you should mention that...  I'm currently building a '59 Ares - it has 2" of wing assymetry, and the plans specify the use of no tip weight at all.    Now, I've never built a model with no tip weight, but then again I'm also not Bill Werwage.  I'm inclined to actually try following the instructions (for once in my life) and see how it goes.

Matt, did you try yours with no tip weight, or is it a different version with symmetrical wings?

[Dennis Adamisin]

Of the two full pattern flights I got today because the wind picked up a lot in the middle of my last flight.  When I did the four-leaf today, the first flight everything was fine and the Ares didn't lose tension on the third loop or anywhere in the flight.  The second flight the motor richened up when I went inverted after the third loop of the clover.  I guess Dennis was right about what he said about the tank.

Hey! Not bad for an electric driver. Yee Haw!    (uh what's my prize?)

[steven yampolsky]

Hey! Not bad for an electric driver. Yee Haw!    (uh what's my prize?)

We're not going to hold it against you. 

I kept beating Mr. Electic(Will Moore) until he switch back to glow. No he beats me every time! 

[Matt Colan]

Interesting that you should mention that...  I'm currently building a '59 Ares - it has 2" of wing assymetry, and the plans specify the use of no tip weight at all.    Now, I've never built a model with no tip weight, but then again I'm also not Bill Werwage.  I'm inclined to actually try following the instructions (for once in my life) and see how it goes.

Matt, did you try yours with no tip weight, or is it a different version with symmetrical wings?

I have 1 1/2 ounces of tip weight in it, and as far as I can tell, there is no hinging in the turns.  Steve, make a tip weight box, it will  really pay off, that is how I can adjust tip weight in it.

[Matt Colan]

Hey! Not bad for an electric driver. Yee Haw!    (uh what's my prize?)

A hand shake next time I see you Dennis

[Bill Little]

Interesting that you should mention that...  I'm currently building a '59 Ares - it has 2" of wing assymetry, and the plans specify the use of no tip weight at all.   Now, I've never built a model with no tip weight, but then again I'm also not Bill Werwage.  I'm inclined to actually try following the instructions (for once in my life) and see how it goes.

Matt, did you try yours with no tip weight, or is it a different version with symmetrical wings?

Hi Steve,

After having numerous conversations with Mr. Werwage, I can tell you he never out tip weight in his Ares.  He DID add some clay to the tip on occasion at a specific meet, but he never built any weight in the plane.   I have always cheated and added a 1/2 oz lead sinker to the very outboard of the spar, but then I was not Billy, either!  The plane, if built correctly, does not need tip weight on a standard basis.  I do listen to The Man, myself.  With a lot of experience with an Ares, the plane needs to fly at around 4.8-4.9 on 60' eye to eye lines, the wing needs the speed with the *older* engines.  When my son won Int. Classic at Brodaks we had just changed to a Magnum XLS II and a three blade Bolly set around 4 pitch.  THAT ENGINE and set up allowed the plane to fly comfortably around 5.2-5.3 laps.  It was hte power delivery that bettered even a GOOD OS 32 which is stronger than the 35S.  Plus, I am in total belief, through talks with Billy, and 45 years of flying an Ares, that the plane will be a dog if it is much over 40 oz.  It will fly, but it will never exhibit the total package at that weight.

I think we get tied up in lap times too much and not the real thing that matters which is the speed the plane needs to fly.  Personally, we have never worried about lap times until the plane is flying correctly and then we have a baseline for lap times to check against.  Not before.

As to Matt, I would definitely work with other props and go at it from that point and not slowing the plane down with the needle valve.  Get the engine where it's happy then prop it for the flying speed you want.  If the plane is too fast for your flying style, go to longer lines.  But get the plane at the speed IT needs and the engine at the place it needs to be.  Props and line length from there.

Ok, so some will say, "hey, Bill, you ain't no EXPERT flyer".  No, but I have been at it for a long time, and I steal all the very best information from the smartest guys to have ever flown this event.  If I had had the time to devote to flying in my younger years, I could well have been an Expert flyer.

This just happens to be one plane and person (Mr. Werwage) whom I have devoted a lot of time learning about.

Bill

[Matt Colan]

Bill, I'm not quite sure what my Ares weighs.  Our scales showed it at 43 ounces, and at Brodak, it tipped the scales at 40 ounces.  I don't see how it would be a dog above 40 ounces, because mine flies great and I'm pretty sure it weighs above 40 ounces.

Here is my setup for my Ares:  OS 35S with a 10-6 Powerpoint prop tached at 8600 RPM.  60ft eye to eye on .015s for lines, and 1 1/2 ounces of tip weight.  I have the plane flying at 5.0 to 5.1 lap times, and it really does fly good.  It is the best plane I've flown, but I'm sure some of the top stunt fliers could find something out of trim, but I don't see anything wrong with it.

[Dennis Adamisin]

A hand shake next time I see you Dennis

..and THAT will make my day! 

[Bill Little]

Bill, I'm not quite sure what my Ares weighs.  Our scales showed it at 43 ounces, and at Brodak, it tipped the scales at 40 ounces.  I don't see how it would be a dog above 40 ounces, because mine flies great and I'm pretty sure it weighs above 40 ounces.

Here is my setup for my Ares:  OS 35S with a 10-6 Powerpoint prop tached at 8600 RPM.  60ft eye to eye on .015s for lines, and 1 1/2 ounces of tip weight.  I have the plane flying at 5.0 to 5.1 lap times, and it really does fly good.  It is the best plane I've flown, but I'm sure some of the top stunt fliers could find something out of trim, but I don't see anything wrong with it.

Hi Matt,

Sorry, I guess my *dog* comment came off wrong (anyway, I was just using a quote from Mr. Werwage).  I am sure that your Ares flies very well.  I have seen a lot of planes that fly well, but they do not fly as good as the design is capable of, that's all.  It's a fact that you can get just about any airplane design to fly well regardless of what could be wrong with it.  I'm not trying to be critical of you, or what you are doing.  Just repeating what I have been told and seen for myself.  I really believe what Billy has told me. :-D

I applaud your enthusiasm and wish you all the best as you climb up the ladder!  I am sure you will be at the top one day and that will be great.  You are young and have everything ahead of you, so make good use of that fact! :-D

Bill <><

[Matt Colan]

I applaud your enthusiasm and wish you all the best as you climb up the ladder!  I am sure you will be at the top one day and that will be great.  You are young and have everything ahead of you, so make good use of that fact! :-D

Bill <><

Thanks Bill, no offense taken to the comment.