Anyone still run a ST .46

[Jim Liddle]

Does anyone still use a Super Tigre 46 on there plane?
Also would you put one on a plane you are building?
I have several I am restoring and was planning on putting them in some planes I am working on.
After reading through all post in the engine tuning section it seems they are a thing of the past , have  inconsistent runs and only run right with a perfect ring. None of my ST 46’s have muffler lugs on them.
I really like the 4 2 4 run. I don’t plan on competing with these planes just flying here at home.
I also have 4 or 5 ST .60’s  I plan on getting a SV11 kit from Randy and putting a ST 60
I it. Would anyone put a 50-60 year old engine in a SV11 or something similar? I look forward to hearing your opinions.
Jim

[John Leidle]

  I'm running Tiger .60s myself they seem to be  what I need.  And they have power & torque.
        John L.

[Ed W. Prohaska]

The ST .46 was an engine of choice back in the 60's, 70's & even into the 80's. If you are restoring several, the probability is high that at least one or two will run well, maybe all will. A local father & son stunt team has been running ST .60s and .46s for decades and they run great.

If you have an LA .46 (doesn't everyone?) and like the way it runs, you can set up the model's front end to take both engines. You'd have to drill a rearward key-way in the LA's front mount so it can accept the mount bolt pattern of the Supertigre. There are some lower case nuisances to account for and the head shapes are obviously different, but other dimensions match up pretty close.

This would only be necessary if you have don't think any of the STs will run well enough and you want a backup plan. If properly restored, they should run. Bench run them first to check fuel consumption. If you want to fly the pattern, 5 to 6 ounces may be needed. It depends on many variables.

"it seems they are a thing of the past" Eventually, all engines will be a thing of the past. A Colt .45 is a thing of the past, but a properly restored one will shoot as well today as it did in 1880.

"Would anyone put a 50-60 year old engine in a SV11 or something similar?"

I doesn't matter what anyone else would do. Its a hobby. Whatever you do has to be safe, but as long as its safe, you can do anything you want. Later ... EWP

[Dan McEntee]

  I have a model with a ST.60 in it, and several more stashed away for further use. I just love them for the sound they make! They run and fly well enough for me, so I will keep using them where possible. I also have a collection of St.46's and some 51's and .56's. They are also a good batch of OS engines of several vintages up to the LA.46. And to top it off, I have a few four stroke Saito engines in the mix.  And I can't leave out Fox and Enya also. It's fair to say that I just like engines! They are all interesting, and have their own special qualities. But NOTHING sounds like a Tiger! At least not to me.  Use them in good health and enjoy them while you can.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[proparc]

The ST46 has a "Sweetness" that's hard to define. As for someone like myself, who has a stable of absolutely killer motors, I consider my ST 46's to be almost priceless. Now, mine all run flawlessly, so that's where my impression of them comes from. Absolutely lovely motors.

Now for some REAL controversy. I consider the Saito FA40, to be one of the greatest motors EVER developed. And that's coming from a guy who owns 2 Moki 150's.

[Dane Martin]

Now for some REAL controversy. I consider the Saito FA40, to be one of the greatest motors EVER developed. And that's coming from a guy who owns 2 Moki 150's.

I had a heavy case A series FA 40 in a 72 inch piper cub. It'll forever be the most I've been impressed by an engine. Easy to start, reliable, consistent... all the good describing words I could think of and more

[Manuel Cortes]

Hi all.

I have 17 ST46, 8 of them NIB, including Randy Smith and Tom Lay tuned ones, and enough spares for all my life. I love them.
I´ve used them in models from 550 sq in to 650 sq in including KA10, Cardinal, Nobler, Smoothie….

In my opinión they are perfectly usable today, wit a good ring, of course, although you can order an ABC PL Assy to Brian Gardner and make a front row unit (valid for ST60).

Cheers.

Manuel.

[Jared Hays]

My father and I are the two people Ed Prohaska mentioned above.  We have many ST 60's and 46's that we fly competitively with and do very well with at contests.  We run a tongue muffler, 5% nitro fuel, 23% castor oil, 72% Methanol.  They run perfect.

[kevin king]

Super Tigre 46 on a tongue  muffler is one of the sweetest sounding engines I've ever flown.

[Dennis Toth]

If you have one with a number of hours on it you could consider upgrading with a Brain Gardner ABC piston/cylinder/rod setup. It is timed same as the original and turns a 1970's engine into a modern powerhouse. The biggest change in model engine design for stunt use is better metallurgy. The ABC setup eliminates one of the big weaknesses in the ST46 & ST60 engines - the RING. With an ABC there is better compression seal you get more power, lower vibration and the same great ST run.

The schnuerle porting in many current engines has a big impact for high max output or racing, but not for stunt. In fact it promotes a run-a-way (which can be harnessed with a tuned pipe) since as the engine rpm increase the porting works better and off it goes. The cross flow - baffle arrangements, from what I have read, works better at lower rpms and that's were we run them. 

You can order from Brian, do a search on this forum for contact info.

Best,    DennisT

[don boka]

Sure do!  I have a ST 46 or two. Several are reworked and a few are stock.
I fly control line at an athletic field not too close to civilization so no muffler issues. Favorite combo is my rather old Veco Hurricane which I built in the sixties and that ST is absolutely perfect for sound and power. The Hurricane isn't the best for square corners but sure does look and sound great in the air.
Don Boka.

[proparc]

These are my 46's and, Ring and ABC ST60's. Also, a genuine Big Jim Red Head 60. The Red Head is courtesy of my brother Jose Modesto.

[proparc]

I like to think I own some of the best motors out there but, the Saito's are very simply, in a class of their own. I have set up 2 test stands, and simultaneously run my ST46 against my Saito FA40 and, IT WAS NO CONTEST!! From left to right, are the Saito FA40, Saito FA56-velocity stack equipped, and the Saito FA72-velocity stack equipped.

The other picture are my prized Moki 61 ABC Ring Long Stroke RC Pattern motors.  I used to read Peter Chinn’s reviews of them in the Mags, and dreamed of owning some one day. I never gave up hope.

[Lauri Malila]

The schnuerle porting in many current engines has a big impact for high max output or racing, but not for stunt. In fact it promotes a run-a-way (which can be harnessed with a tuned pipe) since as the engine rpm increase the porting works better and off it goes. The cross flow - baffle arrangements, from what I have read, works better at lower rpms and that's were we run them. 

Or, one could rather say that Schnuerle promotes run-a-ways because most of schnuerle engines are optimized to much higher power output than what we need. So, in most engines the port areas and opening durations are too big. They will work if you accept the higher operating rpm, that can be difficult for some people.
I have made 4- and 6 port schnuerles, and it's amazing how small the porting can be, compared to all them rc-engines.
But a problem with schnuerle is that (too?) high efficiency and cleanness of flow makes them more sensitive to all kinds of disturbances, that in a cross flow engine is lost in noise. L

[Dane Martin]

Or, one could rather say that Schnuerle promotes run-a-ways because most of schnuerle engines are optimized to much higher power output than what we need. So, in most engines the port areas and opening durations are too big. They will work if you accept the higher operating rpm, that can be difficult for some people.
I have made 4- and 6 port schnuerles, and it's amazing how small the porting can be, compared to all them rc-engines.
But a problem with schnuerle is that (too?) high efficiency and cleanness of flow makes them more sensitive to all kinds of disturbances, that in a cross flow engine is lost in noise. L

I hate to derail a thread, but this reply really grabs my attention. There's a a point to this excess in power used argument. I prefer much smaller engines, ran at high rpm. In most of my favorite planes to fly, I run a 25-28 but constantly get told I need a bigger engine. So my point is, I can use 80-90 percent of my engine, or 40% of a bigger engine. I don't see the need to change. Lol

[Brett Buck]

Does anyone still use a Super Tigre 46 on there plane?
Also would you put one on a plane you are building?
I have several I am restoring and was planning on putting them in some planes I am working on.
After reading through all post in the engine tuning section it seems they are a thing of the past , have  inconsistent runs and only run right with a perfect ring. None of my ST 46’s have muffler lugs on them.
I really like the 4 2 4 run. I don’t plan on competing with these planes just flying here at home.

   Not many people run ST46s, outside nostalgia/classic, because they aren't remotely competitive compared to any of the alternatives. There are still a very few ST60 runners in competition, but most quit or moved on long ago.

   They are perfectly suitable for casual stunt flying. They would drive you crazy trying to compete with them, but as long as you aren't going to try to squeeze out the last bit of performance, they are fine. The 60 has more margin than the 46, unsurprisingly, and can be "off" a bit and still be more than adequate. If you have good runners, use them.

   The rest of the thread makes me sad, we are still arguing issues that have long been settled by actual contest results, and even the one competitive IC system (high rev/low pitch schneurle tuned pipe engines) is close to being obsolete.

    Brett

[Phil Spillman]

I PRIZE my ST .46's absolutely the most reliable engine ever bar none! My favorite mounts have been the Brodak ARF P-40's and Hellcat profile models and the Brodak FW -190 profile. The LA .46 is reliable as well but for sheer grunt power I'll take my ST .46's any time. My fuel of choice is a blend of 50/50 ca and synthetic at about 22% total, 11 X 5/6 paddle blade props. 6" pitch in summer's heat and humidity and the 5's  the rest of the year. I have been flying a Brodak Viking with an Enya 6001.45 BB on pressure for 7+ years and it purrs really nice too! Same 11 X 5/6 props depending on circumstances. I just enjoy the dickens out of flying any day of the week for fun or competition! The most fun come in helping others enjoy our hobby!

Phil Spillman

[proparc]

I very strongly agree with Dennis Toth regarding upgrading ALL your Tigre's to ABC. Now, if you want to get hip to what the "classic" 46/60 run was like then, stick with the ring. I have both, and the ABC is the way to go on both of them IF, it's about performance. No one here, will question the value of PA 75's Kaz Minato's 77, state of the art electrics with timers, etc etc.
 
But, my understanding is this is about affordable, reasonably priced reliable powerplants to get you going.  I have too many engines too mention that go head to head with the ST46, yet I still love my ST46's!! As for feeling sad, the only time my I.C.’s made me feel sad, was when I ran out of fuel!!!

[GERALD WIMMER]

   
" even the one competitive IC system (high rev/low pitch schneurle tuned pipe engines) is close to being obsolete. "

Hello
I presume then, that not only are old set up like the ST46, 60 but every other engine (even the expensive ones and 4strokes) will fall into the nostalgia category in time to be replaced by a high tech electric systems. Sort of a shame as I like those noisy, greasy and characterful engines but technology normally wins over sentimental taste.
Regards Gerald

 

[RandySmith]

Both the  ST 60 and  st 46 are  still very good engines, The  new  ABC chrome lapped  piston sleeve sets make the much longer lasting.   I have  built over 600 st 46s  and  about 900  st 60s,  I am building  12 more  ST engines  right now,  and I have  many boxes of new rings  and  bearings, I also have most  parts for the  46 51 and  60,  People  STILL use them,  today, and  are  happy with them, !   are there better motors  YES, but  nothing  wrong with the  old  STs  my friend  is  buidling a  ST 60 powered  SV11, so those  are still in play

Randy

[Mike Griffin]

I am going to us a G21 ST.46 on my next build.  As Randy said,they are still very good and dependable engines.

Mike

[EddyR]

    Jim should at least acknowledge all those who took the time to answer his question 🙀

[Brian Gardner]

Just a note fellas, my ST46 ABC sets don't fit the "non muffler ear" cases. Those had thinner walled liners, thus a smaller OD.

Brian

[EddyR]

  Brian    remember me the guy who did the first ABC testing of the ST/46 and ST/35 for you all those years ago.   Well going by the case has ears on it will not work.  All the first motors I did the testing on were non ear cases.   Three years ago I bought two brand new never used cases with ears and they would not take the ABC parts as they were thin sleeve cases,
Fooled me as I had never seen a eared case that was for a thin sleeve.  There is one way to tell the older non eared cases apart.  The latest non eared cases have narrow thrust washer about 1/4" wide and the older ones have wider 3/8-12" ,front to back thrust washer.
 Before taking a motor all apart one needs to just move the sleeve up a small amount so it can be measured to check size,diameter.
Ed Ruane

[Gordon Van Tighem]

In 1977 I bought a used ST46 r/c, converted it to C/L and mounted it in a Jack Sheeks Moondust with a Bisson Muffler. It is still there today and most recently flown in N-30 at VSC this past March. Still happy with it (and if it ever slows down I have a Brian Gardner piston and liner set put away)
G

[Dennis Toth]

For the thin walled ST 46 cases, could you bore out the case to fit the BG ABC set?

Best,   DennisT

[EddyR]

  Dennis.       Yes.but unless you did it yourself it would be very expensive. I did it on a vertical mill that I had the use off.  I was a tool maker by trade right out of school so I new how to do such work. Some have tried it on a lathe but the results were much harder to achieve.
 Ed

[Dennis Toth]

ER,
How much is being taken out to get the proper fit? Could you use an adjustable reamer?

Best,   DennisT

[EddyR]

Dennis        When i sold my house two years ago I got rid of everything.     Even my book with all my motor numbers in it. I have one place to look and see if I kept any ST parts.
   NOTE      one common problem I saw that many people did was to not keep the boring straight.  It is not a hole that is being reamed out but a tube with openings on the side. A reamer would walk all over the place. The motor must be locked down solid and the the mill head can take cuts with out the case moving.    I saw several ST/56 and 60's that had over size sleeves in them and they were not straight. They would bind up when the head was tightened. Getting the case set up at 90 degrees on the milling table is the hardest part of the entire job. The boring part  is easy.
Ed

[Dallas Hanna]

ER,
How much is being taken out to get the proper fit? Could you use an adjustable reamer?

Best,   DennisT

Dennis, the difference in liner od is 0.5mm.  Early is 24mm and late is 24.5mm diameter.

H

[Brett Buck]

Dennis        When i sold my house two years ago I got rid of everything.     Even my book with all my motor numbers in it. I have one place to look and see if I kept any ST parts.
   NOTE      one common problem I saw that many people did was to not keep the boring straight.  It is not a hole that is being reamed out but a tube with openings on the side. A reamer would walk all over the place. The motor must be locked down solid and the the mill head can take cuts with out the case moving.    I saw several ST/56 and 60's that had over size sleeves in them and they were not straight. They would bind up when the head was tightened. Getting the case set up at 90 degrees on the milling table is the hardest part of the entire job. The boring part  is easy.
Ed

  How do you set that up? I would guess you would need to hold the lugs and the top end of the case to keep it from flexing while you were doing it. With the interrupted cut I would expect it to be flopping all over the place, otherwise.

    Brett

[Dan McEntee]

  How do you set that up? I would guess you would need to hold the lugs and the top end of the case to keep it from flexing while you were doing it. With the interrupted cut I would expect it to be flopping all over the place, otherwise.

    Brett

      Well, for a meatball self taught machinist like me, I would make a fixture to hold the engine case. It would be held to the table of the mill by the usual manor, and the engine case would attach to the fixture just like mounting in an airplane, but make it much more snug, precise and secure. I would have the back plate surface meet up square and solid with the back end of the fixture, and have a front side where a pin engage the case just like a bearing would. This could be done in a couple of ways. If you feel the need, you could fab up four threaded rod braces that would be parallel to the table to just kiss the cylinder to stabilize it. You would need some good dial indicating tools to make sure you are centered in the original bore and in line vertically with the original bore. You would need a very good quality boring bar with zero slop, and a cutter that is shaped properly so it cuts correctly as the bar progresses downward. You are only going to make very light cuts of a few thousandths, and feeding very slowly, so I don't think that you would be whacking the cylinder around very much.  A spare, non-usable engine block to practice on would be suggested also if you can get one.
     The big question I have is, are the ABC cylinders a tight fit like the stock steel cylinder liners are? Lots of ST.46's and .60's have been ruined by people making the liners fit too loose and then they don't transfer heat like they should. I was warned about this when I needed to do my own ring installation on a .46 on short notice to make the SIG contest once years ago. Is this required for the ABC upgrade?
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[EddyR]

   I took a piece of 1/2" aluminum and cut a nutch for the motor and bolted it in mill table vice Getting it perfect vertical is the hard part. If you had a vice that would adjust in two directions it would help.  If you were removing a lot of material it would not be as critical.  I also dropped the sleeve on a few.  All sleeves are not timed the same. they did change them over the years.
Ed

[RandySmith]

ER,
How much is being taken out to get the proper fit? Could you use an adjustable reamer?

Best,   DennisT

NO You  cannot  use  the  reamer  to do that,  But you would be  much better off  getting  a  case that would fit.

by the  way  your  2    ST 60 s   are  now  finished , They should  do you a  very good job powering  whatever you  put them in  for a long  time

Randy

[Tim Wescott]

... Some have tried it on a lathe but the results were much harder to achieve...

For some reason this called up an image of an x-y table bolted to a faceplate.  Tea did not come out my nose, but it was a close-run thing.

(And yes, I know -- if you're going to do this on a lathe you're either going to spend a day with a dial indicator and a light hammer trying to move a motor by a few tenths to get concentricity, or you're going to use one of those milling attachments on the cross-feed, or there's some other technique that I don't know of because I'm a complete amateur).

[Brett Buck]

For some reason this called up an image of an x-y table bolted to a faceplate.  Tea did not come out my nose, but it was a close-run thing.

(And yes, I know -- if you're going to do this on a lathe you're either going to spend a day with a dial indicator and a light hammer trying to move a motor by a few tenths to get concentricity, or you're going to use one of those milling attachments on the cross-feed, or there's some other technique that I don't know of because I'm a complete amateur).

    I am an amateur too, too, but for the lathe you would make a fixture to hold the engine, chuck that up in a 4-jaw, etc. Wouldn't be that hard it you are an expert with the 4-jaw. But this is more appropriate to jig up stationary in a mill, and use a boring head.

     There is a thing called a boring mill, that for all intents and purposes, *does* have a XY table that rotates on shaft. But you mount the tools and the workpeice stays stationary.

    Brett

[Lauri Malila]

I would for sure do it in lathe. What would be the angle of cylinder compared to crankshaft? In rear exhaust I tilt the cylinder back about 6'. Side-exhaust would be slightly less, I guess. L

[Tim Wescott]

Hello
I presume then, that not only are old set up like the ST46, 60 but every other engine (even the expensive ones and 4strokes) will fall into the nostalgia category in time to be replaced by a high tech electric systems. Sort of a shame as I like those noisy, greasy and characterful engines but technology normally wins over sentimental taste.
Regards Gerald

For a while I was planning on trying to flog this particular dead horse, by wrapping some active RPM control around internal combustion engines (using a TUT, an RPM sensor, a servo, and a whole lot of flogging).

Brett failed to convince me that it can't be done, but he did convince me that it'd be a lot of work -- and in the end you'd have a system that's more complex for the pilot to set up than an electric.  I figured that it was a heck of a lot of work for some very questionable gain.  So I desisted, and converted to electric because I want my scores to be limited by my flying ability and not by my power train.

But -- I'm keeping the IC engines around for fun flying, for sure!

[Tim Wescott]

    I am an amateur too, too, but for the lathe you would make a fixture to hold the engine, chuck that up in a 4-jaw, etc...

That really ought to have occurred to me.  Dangit.

[M Spencer]

Gotra ' from new ' 46 , running a .210 sprinkler itake ( came in a G-15 ) 12 x 5 . flys a 65 Oz slow calm weather plane fine . on 60 ft of .018 . Tho theyre 20 years olds now and were getting a bit sticky .
Might throw in a can of thinners . Hope springs eternal to the human m,ind ! . Tho Ive NOW made up NEW .018s & .016s . 

Just mounted it in My P-51 , same weight . As seems C G aft is the way to go with it , But mayve gone to far . . .

Got Two with a cut down intake & 1/2 in. hight spraybar . plus a fourth . Plus a 21/40 RV - may bore case for the .46 ABc liner.Then Id have a 46 rear intake , too .

THE ISSUE re shirty runs , IS THE ' Glazeing ' , saysed our renowned Ted . Back in the 80s .

Busting the Glaze on the BORE of Ringed Engines , Gottem dead consitant . Shiney even semi chrme ( appearing ) finish , and theyed be erratic .

One can LAP rings , using a dowle , if there light showing , fitted square , pistonless .

Takes a lootta heat , to destroy rings , like 5 miles crawling in the rush hour , with no water . shutting it off & on . To hot for hand 1/2 hour later still . Detensioned then a bit . 

[RandySmith]

    I am an amateur too, too, but for the lathe you would make a fixture to hold the engine, chuck that up in a 4-jaw, etc. Wouldn't be that hard it you are an expert with the 4-jaw. But this is more appropriate to jig up stationary in a mill, and use a boring head.

     There is a thing called a boring mill, that for all intents and purposes, *does* have a XY table that rotates on shaft. But you mount the tools and the workpeice stays stationary.

    Brett

I have several lathes and  a mill, I do mine in a lathe, I have a fixture that holds the  case, and you center as close as you can, then I use a dial indicator to perfect center the case, lock it down, and  then you can run the dial indicator down the bore to see if it is  straight, on any side you want to check, Then you can run the  dial indicator across the top of the case where the sleeve flange sits, to check it,  Then you can proceed to bore the case .
I have bored a lot of  ST  cases, Most all of them had machined flat  luggs  and  presented not much of a problem, Other engines  are not as  good. For  these  I have had to shim, and  after the  bore, run a small cut of  a couple thousands across the top of the case to make it square to the new bore.

Randy

[EddyR]

  This thread has had a good run but here is the motor I described above. Before selling my house two years ago I cleaned out all old motor parts and sold my ABC Tigre's.  I still had quite a few new parts to  rebuild ST/46 motors. I had this case sitting for a few years and was going to build a new ABC in it.  When I went to drop in the sleeve No Go??
  I measured it and it was a thin sleeve case. I do not remember seeing a muffler eared case that was for the thin sleeve. I had one new thin sleeve in my parts and so I built it with new crankcase, sleeve, piston, ring, bearings. I set it up as I did 20 Years ago and put in in the  Classic Falcon.  Don and I went to the field to see how it would run.  No break in needed. Two perfect runs with full Pattern.
    Note This is a new case but I used what I had in Parts so it has the wide thrust cover . Newer motors will have a narrow thrust cover ,thrust washer. Tigre called it a dust cove.
Ed

[Chris McMillin]

Nice engine, glad it runs so well.
It's such a neat looking engine and easy to run it is the iconic machine for CL Stunt.
Competitive or not, it is a great thing for a mid sized model on a lazy day at the park.
Chris...

[EddyR]

  Since we are talking about dropping bigger piston & liners into cases here is the motor everyone wanted in the 1970-80's it is the .51 in a .46 case. I built a few of these for myself and some for flyers in Europe. I think this is the only one still in running condition. The St.46 and the ST.51 had the same crank throw. The .51 and the .56  had the same piston size .9055.      The case of the some newer .46's could be bored out to take the thin sleeve .51      The sleeve had to be relieved  for the head bolts and a special head and rod had to be made for it all to work.   I had one of these in my USA-1 and it was a supper motor but it died with the plane. This one,in the picture went for a 1000+ flights in my 1988 Juno. The 15 cases I had bored out were done at NASA at the cape. I was doing a lot of custom camera work for NASA when I owned FCR Corp. They did it as a gift for my fast last minute work. None of my stuff went to the moon as that was before my time with them. I did a lot of Shuttle camera work.  I did the cameras that were taken outside the shuttle.
Ed

[EddyR]

   One more picture of the .51 in the .46 case
Ed