Leadouts, Solid vs Braided Cable

[Dick Pacini]

I have always used .032 solid piano wire for leadouts and never had one break or come apart.  The ends were looped in an oval, a 1/2" length of just-to-fit brass tubing slid over the leadout and butt end up to snug the loop, the butt end bent up and clipped off with wire cutters.  Both ends of the leadouts were done this way.  Quick and dirty.

The only drawback that I can see is that the ends protruding from the wingtip need to be protected against bumping to avoid bending the wire.  However, reasonable care handling the model is all that is necessary.

Back in the '60s, Jack Sheeks showed me that method which he used on all his planes, at least, at that time.  It is much quicker that wrapping cable with copper wire and much more secure.

I guess my question is what are the advantages of braided leadouts?

[Clint Ormosen]

Besides what you already mentioned about the care you must take to not bend solids at the wing tip, braided leadouts are much quieter. They don't buzz when the engine is running.

[Hoss Cain]

I have always used .032 solid piano wire for leadouts and never had one break or come apart.  The ends were looped in an oval, a 1/2" length of just-to-fit brass tubing slid over the leadout and butt end up to snug the loop, the butt end bent up and clipped off with wire cutters.  Both ends of the leadouts were done this way.  Quick and dirty.

The only drawback that I can see is that the ends protruding from the wingtip need to be protected against bumping to avoid bending the wire.  However, reasonable care handling the model is all that is necessary.

Back in the '60s, Jack Sheeks showed me that method which he used on all his planes, at least, at that time.  It is much quicker that wrapping cable with copper wire and much more secure.

I guess my question is what are the advantages of braided leadouts?

Hello Mr. Dick, for what is is or isn't worth, I agree 100% with you.     I flew CL models from around late '40's until about 1973. While mostly flying just for the love of it, I was a competitive flier from the late '50s until around 1973 when I had gotten into that "Somewhat Controlled Thingy".  

In that time period I used many different methods but steel wire became the main one. Now that I have several CL models back in the barn, all are/will be steel wire. Besides being easy to do, it just looks better -- TO ME!  

Your technique reference the ends with a sleeve certainly sounds very good. I will have to try that. All these years I simply bent the ends kind of into a somewhat arrow shape then wound around the main wire for several wraps, and snipped. At the bell crank it's more like a rectangle shape.

Thanks for bringing this subject up. The AMA rulebook is still using the technology of early 1950 "Speed" fliers.  

Edited for typo -- left some for you. 

[Randy Powell]

Dick,

I've always used braided leadouts. My buddy Pat Johnston always uses solids. Apart from the noise issue, I'm not sure there is much difference. I feel I get a smoother feel from the braided leadout, but I'm probably just imagining it. And you have to be careful not to bang the solids and bend them, but really, it's a matter of personal preferrence.

[Ward Van Duzer]

like this?

W.

[Ron Heckler]

Hi guys,

As we all know, in this hobby it's a matter of choice and self satisfaction as to the way we build models. As far as leadouts go, I built one plane with solid leadouts and ended up bending them while putting the model in my vehicle, and no matter how hard I tried, I could not get them back the way they were. So I decided to change them since my wing was covered with monokote, and from then on I make them the same way in every plane.

Solid leadouts are connected to the bellcrank with a loop about 1" long. A piece of 1/8" tubing is slid onto the wire and over where they meet then soldered.  The wire is cut 7" from the tubing. A piece of 3/32" diameter tubing is used and the solid lead out and flexible cable are pushed through in opposite directions then bent back over the tubing, wrapped with copper wire and soldered. This makes a permanent connection and will never separate.

The ends of the flexible cable are made into loops and finished the same as flying lines (wrapped with copper wire and epoxied).   NEVER crimp or solder at this location.  I have seen tooooo many planes crash due to this error.

I hope this has been helpful.

Ron Heckler
New York Control Line Stunt Team
 

[Mark Misegadis]

The ends of the flexible cable are made into loops and finished the same as flying lines (wrapped with copper wire and epoxied).   NEVER crimp or solder at this location.  I have seen tooooo many planes crash due to this error.

Ron, I have never asked about this but always wondered what the issue was with using solder here. What fails and why?

Thanks
Mark

[Jim Thomerson]

If you solder cable, you make a hard place, a stress riser, and likely the place where the cable will break.

[Dick Pacini]

like this?

W.

Yes, but without solder.  The upturned spur on the butt-end of the wire keeps everything tight. 

[Dick Pacini]

Solid leadouts are connected to the bellcrank with a loop about 1" long. A piece of 1/8" tubing is slid onto the wire and over where they meet then soldered.  The wire is cut 7" from the tubing. A piece of 3/32" diameter tubing is used and the solid lead out and flexible cable are pushed through in opposite directions then bent back over the tubing, wrapped with copper wire and soldered. This makes a permanent connection and will never separate.

The ends of the flexible cable are made into loops and finished the same as flying lines (wrapped with copper wire and epoxied).   NEVER crimp or solder at this location.  I have seen tooooo many planes crash due to this error.

Ron, I am not following you.  Are you saying you have solid leadouts that couple with flexible leadouts before exiting the wing?

[Brett Buck]

I guess my question is what are the advantages of braided leadouts?

  Much less failure-prone if terminated correctly, lighter for a given margin, and far less damage prone.

    Brett

p.s. by terminated correctly, this thread shows it in exquisite detail. Note that while Derek's machine work is fantastic, the only hard part to make with hand tools is the little aluminum bushing. The rest is easily made with hand tools and a jigsaw in about an hour (ignoring the glue-curing time).

http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=332148&mesg_id=332148

[Andrew Tinsley]

Jim,
  I keep hearing this thing about stress raisers at the end of a soldered leadout or normal lines. I am then told to do it the AMA way and bind the wire as per book and wrap with fine copper wire and then epoxy the result. You finish up with just as big a stress raiser with the approved method as you do by soldering the lines!!!!!
  For everyone that says they have seen soldered lines fail, I can find a devotee of soldered lines say they have never witnessed a failure of soldered terminations. I get a very strong feeling that there is a lot of folk lore quoted by people that have been brainwashed by one school or the other!
  For what its worth, I flew many years with soldered terminations and never a failure. When I got told that soldering was a no no, I flew for years with the AMA type terminations, again never a failure.
  Where I have had failures, it has been with fishing type swivels and kinks in the lines well away from the handle or plane.
  I use solid leadouts, what I can't see, I don't trust and solid leadouts are far less likely to fail than braided.

Regards,

Andrew.

[Steve Helmick]

The current grade of piano wire available in the LHS (most likely K&S brand) is not nearly as good as what we could once get. I'm not sure if the old wire was SIG or Sullivan, but it was a heck of a lot better than K&S. That alone tells me not to use solids.

One day I was going to take my plane to work and go flying afterwards. The truck broke, I had to get a rental (a Chevy Cavalier, I think), and the Humongus only fit because it had cable leadouts and I could shove them into the wingtip. I used solid leadouts on combat models, but they didn't last long enough to create any problems, about a year on average. Stunt and sport models should do better, so they need better, IMO.  Steve

[Jim Thomerson]

When I judged Old time Stunt with Ted Fancher at the 2000 VSC, he remarked that if he could hear the leadouts rattle in the wing on landing, it was not a perfect landing. (I think he was partly joking.)  Anyway, if you put solid leadouts in an OTS airplane, you are cutting down your likelihood of perfect landings.   I use saltwater braided nylon encased leader material, which is even quieter than the usual naked braded leadouts. 

[Ron Heckler]

I would like to respond in this manner:

Mark,
Jim gave you the same answer I would have (stress points). I've see it happen.

Dick,
The answer to your question is yes! It's the way of splicing flexible cable to solids inside the wing. This method is used by a lot of expert flyers and my flying club has a few.

Andrew,
When the epoxy is applied, it's only put on the copper wrapping to insure it does not unwind and at the same time it's easier on the fingers when connecting the flying lines. Another method is to use heat shrink up to the eyelet which holds everything together. As you said, the AMA states the same way. I have seen a new set of lines right out of the box snap where the lines were crimped. I cannot understand why they would still make them that way. That is the reason a lot of flyers including myself make up our own lines.

As I said before, everybody has their own way of accomplishing the same thing, but when I see planes lost because of a failure, and I am doing the same thing as that flyer, I take that as a sign to find a better way of doing it, and at the same time pass the information along to other flyers.  That's what I like about this forum. I hate to say it, but sometimes we learn from other peoples misfortunes and our own.

Regards to all,
Ron   

[Chuck Feldman]

Solids where very common back in the day. I did have some Braided lines saw thru my bellcrank once back then and I lost that ship. Chief with Fox 35. Veco bellcrank. I mentioned this to my friend George Hubscmide and he told be you had to put bushings in the bellcrank if you used Braided leadout wire. So I used solids from that time on. Some 30 years latter no one was using solids just braided? As my first model on returning to CLPA was a Teosawki and an La 46 it had braided lead outs. When I built my own model my friends showed me how to do the braided leadouts so that things stayed in good working order. So to answer your question. I have not seen or heard a solid lead out ship since returning to the event. The pilots all seem to know to bush the cable where it goes through the bellcrank to prevent a failure. I personally think the braided leadouts are better than the solids.

[Dick Pacini]

Dick,
The answer to your question is yes! It's the way of splicing flexible cable to solids inside the wing. This method is used by a lot of expert flyers and my flying club has a few.

Ron   

Ron, this sound interesting.  I guess my question is what is the advantage splicing the two materials together instead of using all of one or the other?

[Ron Heckler]

Dick,

I can answer this very easily
1)  The solid lead outs will not wear through the bellcrank or wear themselves out as flexibles can.
2)  The flexible leadouts cannot bend out of shape as solids can.

This is having the best of both worlds.

In addition, I have found by doing it the way I suggested, the controls are much smoother, especially if they are going through an adjustable leadout guide.

Ron

[Andrew Tinsley]

Jim,
Just a thought re your remark about Ted Fancher. I don't know about the US, but when OTS models were not OTS, i.e. when they were latest state of the art. Everyone here in the UK used solid wire leadouts. Mild steel oxy acetylene welding wire was available to me as a kid and I always used it.
  I would like to bet that things were not too different in the US, so Ted should have been down-scoring cable leadouts for lack of authenticity! Suitable tongue in cheek apologies for dragging Ted into this!

Regards,

Andrew.