LA 25 in a Fancherized Twister?

[Tim Wescott]

Is the LA 25 plenty-o-motor for a Fancherized Twister, assuming that one only replaces the balsa with the grain running the wrong way, but not any of the mislabeled teak that somehow made it into the "this is balsa" pile?

I went looking for motors for the Twister, but didn't find much specific information.  I did find some, the LA-25 was mentioned.  I have a couple of LA-25s, but it seems kinda small to me.  Would the engine really work in that plane, with plenty of margin for wind and the sort of weight gain that comes from actually using the wood that comes with the kit?  Would it be OK if I built the kit but obsessively cut weight by replacing half or more of the wood?  Or should I be thinking of something bigger?

It seems like the two most common engines used by the bottom-feeders like me are the LA-25 and the LA-46 -- but I assume that the 46 would just be too big?  Are there any other engines out there that are a good fit that won't give me fits, and won't cost an arm and a leg?

RC engines that just need a venturi are no problem -- I have a lathe and the competence to turn out a venturi.

[Mark Scarborough]

Tim, IMHO, the LA 46 has a couple advantages,, if you do end up a touch heavy,, its got power,, its available, its easy to run, its versitile in most anything up to about 600 inches, there is a ton of info, they are cheap, so,, is it to big,, well its more than you need, but you can tame it with pitch,, to control speed. I would consider if you have a kit, perhaps you could add a few inches to the wing( sometimes the spars and LE TE stock is longer than needed so cutting a couple extra full ribs it would help. Extend the tail length as suggested by Fancher.. My first flapped plane was a Fancherized twister with an FP 40, but they are a BIT less friendly to run than the LA. also a bit tougher to come by. Used to be there was an advantage to the 40 because line size was tied to displacement for stunt, now with that not the case, there really isnt a great reason not to.
there are other engines,, the original was designed around a fox 35, I suggest you not go that way however, it requires different fuel than your other engines,, its also IMHO not the best option for situation,, Steve helmick has a 36 myabe a Magnum, or a thundertiger,, not sure,, but it works well also
dont over think it, do what Fancher says,, build it straight( replace wood as needed from the kit) light, and make it servicable,, like as in, shrink wrap covering,, The wing will take an amazing amount of abuse without failing,, WITH ultracote,, Not with Silkspan,,
my two cents worth

[Leester]

Os 35 FP would be my first choice, but then I have them. I would rather have more power than the LAS 25.

[wwwarbird]

 An LA .25 would be a bit weak for the Twister. You could maybe get away with it if the model comes out as an absolute featherweight.

 A smooth running .35 to .40 would be ideal.

[Doug Knoyle]

C'mon buddy - go electric!   

[Tim Wescott]

C'mon buddy - go electric!   

That may happen, particularly if I make it through the next few contests without crashing.  I think a full-bore whap into asphalt may be more expensive with an electric plane than with a slime-powered one.

I have all I need except the batteries and a timer, so my initial expense may be less than a new motor if I get cheap batteries.

[James D. Hayes]

There's a fellow in the CL club we have here in Albuquerque, he had a regular Twister out at one of our flyin's about a month ago, he flew the entire Old time stunt pattern with a OS .40 LA. I loved it, decide there on the spot to build one after my Ringmaster build is done, I have a brand new .40 LA in the box and I downloaded the plan's for the Fancherized version. Just need to order a kit. (Or just buy some balsa and cut my own).

[Mark Scarborough]

Tim, I have a slightly spare timer,, if you truly are interested,, we should talk.

[Tim Wescott]

(Or just buy some balsa and cut my own).

I have to say that I was surprised and disappointed at some of the wood in the kit.  It's been a long time since I've built a Sig kit, and I remember the wood selection as being quite -- competent, I guess is the right word.  Not superlative all-contest-balsa, but no wood that I would consider to be defective.

This kit has some wood in it that looks like it came out of a crotch in a balsa tree.  Not only does the grain run diagonally to the length of the piece, but the density, color, and type varies across the piece -- it goes from mixed grain to 'C' grain and back to mixed, and the darker regions have so many (and so distinct) pores that I would almost take it for another species altogether if it weren't attached cheek to jowl to some recognizable balsa.  It's not even poorly selected for the job (which is normal for a kit where everything is just run straight from the sawmill to the die cutting shop) but it is just flat defective wood.

Sorry for the rant -- I used to love Sig, so every week that goes by without them making good on their orders from my local hobby shop is hurting, and seeing this in a box with their name on it is just another poke with a stick.

[Tim Wescott]

Tim, I have a slightly spare timer,, if you truly are interested,, we should talk.

KR?

[Bryan Higgins]

Tim
Randy Smith from Aero Products has a great line of Enya's for sale .30 / .32 / .40's all great prices.
You should check him out.

[Mark Scarborough]

KR?

No its actually the ztron,, ( zgras,,hmm now I dont remember,, ) its the one that Mike Palko uses,, I have two,, It uses binary dip switches to program,, knowing you, it would be a lot easier for you to use this timer than some other people,, It took me a few tries to wrap my head around, but its a solid piece,,
I just went with Hubin mostly because of the programing box,, so this one is now surplus ,, slightly,,

[Dan Berry]

My brother had a fair bit of success with a Tower 40 in his Twister.

[ChrisSarnowski]

I flew a Fancherized Twister with an FP 40. It was great till I whacked it.

-Chris

[Bootlegger]

  Leester, I sent ya' a private message, thanks Bootlegger

[Bill Heher]

I have flown them with O.S. .35S, MAX .40H, FP .40, LA 40 and .46.  I like the LA .46 best, plenty of power, nice needle range, and economical on fuel.

I think a .25 would be on the small side, might work as a basic trainer, but for much beyond wing overs and maybe a loop or 2, you will be happier with more power rather than less.

[builditright]

Sorry to jump in here Tim with this but if you need an F.Twister I offer a kit
for nitro or electric version

[Heman Lee]

I agree with Mark; an LA 46 would be a safer bet for most intermediates.  People have been successful with an .25 on a Fancherrized version, but they were all expert builders.  Your kit may not contained 6 lb AAA balsa.  I seen a lot of Fancherized version that came out tail heavy and with a .25 engine you will need to built it < 36oz.

[Tim Wescott]

Sorry to jump in here Tim with this but if you need an F.Twister I offer a kit
for nitro or electric version

Nah, there's enough good in this Sig kit that it's worth making up the rest from the pile-o-wood.

[Tim Wescott]

I agree with Mark; an LA 46 would be a safer bet for most intermediates.  People have been successful with an .25 on a Fancherrized version, but they were all expert builders.  Your kit may not contained 6 lb AAA balsa.  I seen a lot of Fancherized version that came out tail heavy and with a .25 engine you will need to built it < 36oz.

I figured that I could move heaven and earth and get the weight down, but not with the wood in the kit, and then how would the plane handle in the wind?

[Mark Scarborough]

Tim, the biggest single advantage I see with the LA 46, is that it is easily translated to other designs,, and offers the oppurtunity to move up in size as you outgrow,, ( or heaven forbid,, stuff) the Ftwister,,

[Tim Wescott]

( or heaven forbid,, stuff) the Ftwister,,

Ftwister?  Fwister?  Fanchister?

I'm kinda wondering if I shouldn't just build two airframes, as I was planning on doing with the SkyRay before I got such a public and pointed suggestion that  I move to a flapped plane.

[Joseph Lijoi]

Consider the Evo 36.  The 46 LA is a good choice.  The Fancherized Twister that I have (bought from another modeler) was really tail heavy.  It required the stock muffler and a lead slug in the backplate to be even close.

[Mark Scarborough]

thats what I did Tim,, they are almost as simple as a skyray,,

However, I think the skyray is still a good way to go,, then the twister is the step up,,

[Russell Shaffer]

I'm thinking that the 25 would fly the Twister, but neither it nor the airplane would be happy.  I believe you would be at the upper limit for a good 25 in good conditions.  My Medic does fine with the LA 25 and the Medic is about the size of a Twister and weighs in at 36 ounces, BUT there are no flaps to increase drag in corners. Go with an engine that will happily turn an 11 inch prop and you will be happier. Then your Twister can come in at 42 or 44 ounces and still fly just fine.   

[Dennis Moritz]

Twisters are great transition planes. Excellent way to start learning about a flapped stunter. Simple, basic construction. If you build the plane light, use light wood wherever possible and structurally appropriate, sure, an LA 25 on something like 57', .012 lines might work. Finish in dope and silkspan, 1/16" doublers, light stiff straight fues wood (good luck finding that), fly on the left coast in a moderate prevailing unidirectional breeze, knock yourself out. The Fancherize Twister plan I have shows an LA25. ARF Flite Streaks are an excellent match to an LA25. The hollow fues wonders are usually under 30 ounces, probably around 26. Saw one fly at our home field this weekend. Reminded me how sweet the combo could be. The LA 25 running a steady 2-stroke, the Streak flying easily. Not a high point pattern. But an easy run through the pattern. The combo looked balanced. Components well matched. Twisters weigh more, also there is the extra drag of flaps and a longer wing. It would be a challenge to build a 34 or 36 ounce Twister. More likely you bill be running to 38 ounces and above. Which means an LA 25 is lugging considerably more load.

LA 46s weigh approximately the same as FP40s, Tower 40s and LA40s. They are for the money great stunt engines. Powerful, easy to tune, available new and used. Trouble is they turn a big prop. 11.5 to 12.25. At least that's how we run them in my club. A prop that size might cause some issues on a comparatively small plane like a Twister. For that reason I'd probably run a 40. For FP40s and Tower 40s, I'd start with 2 or 3 head gaskets, an Enya#3 plug, a .265 venturi, tongue muffler with a lot of holes, powermaster 22%(50/50), 5%, 10.5x4.5 APC. I'd build the front end rigid, 5 ply 1/8" doublers, carbon fiber sandwich, close up the back end of the nose (side opposite the engine) with 1/8" 5 ply. Gluing it all together with quality epoxy, making sure everything fit without gaps, weighting the nose sandwich down as it dried and so forth. Careful building always a positive.

[Bill Allen]

Tim: Couple suggestions: #1.) I'd seriously consider the LA46 for the reasons suggested in the posts here; #2.)I'm writing a three part article for CLW covering the "F/A TWISTER" (that's Fancherized/Allenized TWISTER) for competition flying. Both aircraft were built from kits. You will benefit from the articles and as such I'm taking the liberty of sending you part I...no cost or obligation by you.  My compliments.  The second part is due out in three weeks; #3.)The plan set for this TWISTER version are available from Leonard Neumann of Stuka Stunt...2 full size sheets  which allows you all the specs for this F/A version;  Hope this helps you.                        Bill Allen; allen.wm42@Yahoo.com

[Tim Wescott]

Thanks Bill.

[DanielGelinas]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the Brodak .40.  That would be an excellent engine for the F.Twister. Enya .30, .35 would also be excellent.
-Dan

[Scott B. Riese]

WELL 2 cents. I fly my F.Twister with a FP-25.......

LA-40
FP-35
RE-Worked FP-40
Fox 35

Tim.....I don't know what engines you have....Let me know as I may be able to help

Scott Riese

[Mark Scarborough]

well thats all good Scott, but you have a bit more finesse than some of us other laypeople,, so the FP 25 works for you,, LOL,,
Me ,, well I need a bit of reserve power for my yank in panic corners LOL

[Tim Wescott]

I've got enough reed valve 049s to make up 0.4 cubic inches, but I don't really want to go there.

OS 25S

FP 20

LA 25

Fox 35 stunt

Fox 40 RC (with Schnuerle porting)

I've got two of the Fox 40's, one of which is a strong runner when that really strange carburetor is clean-clean-clean.  I'm thinking that if I put a plain old venturi on there it may work well, even if it's kind of a weirdo choice.  (I'm considering using it in a way that lets me yank it out and use some other motor if it doesn't work).

[Tim Wescott]

well thats all good Scott, but you have a bit more finesse than some of us other laypeople,, so the FP 25 works for you,, LOL,,
Me ,, well I need a bit of reserve power for my yank in panic corners LOL

I was kinda thinking that.

[Bill Little]

Hi Tim,

Go ahead and get the LA .46.  It will do great on the FTwister and you will need one for the planes you build down the road.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[Randy Cuberly]

All the engines mentioned here would be good choices for the F. Twister.  However having used several LA 25's in the past and having seen several others used I would simply say that I believe most folks here are understimating the power and ability of this engine.
The LA 25 is way more than the equal of any Fox 35 and there have been a lot of Twisters in the past flown with that engine very succesfully.  The LA 25 will easily turn a 10 X 4 APC prop at 10,000 + RPM and generate much more HP than the venerable Fox (and it won't BURP and vibrate) and will fly most any profile in the 38 to 42 oz range.  It is relatively easy to build a profile like the F Twister in this range.

That said...my personal choice would go along with Mark Scarborough on the LA 46 but if I wanted to be a bit different I certainly would not be afraid to use the LA 25.
One plus is flying the pattern on about three oz or less of fuel (even 15% Nitro).

Randy Cuberly

[Dennis Moritz]

What prop, venturi, fuel, extra head gasket or not, on an LA46 to power a Twister? (Addressed to folks who recommend this power.) How would you characterize the desirable run? Wet 2 stroke, 4 stroke, or...

[Mark Scarborough]

well there is lots on here about the LA 46,, basically the 12.25 x 3.75 , a .272 venturi, a ST or Randy smith needle valve assembly. 10% nitro 22 % oil,, ( half and half synth , castor) rpm 9800
The twister is a bit small for this engine,, however with enough vertical stab area I would not be afraid of it. however some success has been had with the 11.5 x 4 APC,, My personal experience has been with this prop that the needle is a bit sensitive. 
the issue noted is that when you needle it a hundred or two hundred rpm either way, it can go several minutes longer, or shorter,, even though the rpm is not that far off. This went away with the use of the 12.25

[Randy Cuberly]

While I'm sure Mark's set up probably works well.  I would much prefer a .280 venturi with the ST or Randy Smith needle and a 11.5 X 4 APC prop at 9400 launch RPM.  Same fuel!  This setup gives more reserve power by operating in a stronger portion of the power curve in my opinion.  It does use a little more fuel but keeps the engine happier in a fast strong four cycle.

I think the 12.25 diameter prop limits corner especially on a smaller airplane like the Twister.

Randy Cuberly

[RandySmith]

Which is why an Enya 30SS  is a better choice for that plane
Light powerful, and last and last

Randy

[Scott B. Riese]

You can lead a horse to water....However, it easier to ride it.
Far from me to help...BUT K.I.S.S
Fox 40.....too much
LA-46...Too MUCH
Fox .35...Good
Enya 30...Good
LA-25...Good
25 VF ....&^%$#)&)!@......lol

WHY we say that......The tank weight/volume is one. And there are many more.

[Chris McMillin]

While I'm sure Mark's set up probably works well.  I would much prefer a .280 venturi with the ST or Randy Smith needle and a 11.5 X 4 APC prop at 9400 launch RPM.  Same fuel!  This setup gives more reserve power by operating in a stronger portion of the power curve in my opinion.  It does use a little more fuel but keeps the engine happier in a fast strong four cycle.

I think the 12.25 diameter prop limits corner especially on a smaller airplane like the Twister.

Randy Cuberly

That's cuz you're at 2500 feet.
Chris...

[Chris McMillin]

well there is lots on here about the LA 46,, basically the 12.25 x 3.75 , a .272 venturi, a ST or Randy smith needle valve assembly. 10% nitro 22 % oil,, ( half and half synth , castor) rpm 9800
The twister is a bit small for this engine,, however with enough vertical stab area I would not be afraid of it. however some success has been had with the 11.5 x 4 APC,, My personal experience has been with this prop that the needle is a bit sensitive. 
the issue noted is that when you needle it a hundred or two hundred rpm either way, it can go several minutes longer, or shorter,, even though the rpm is not that far off. This went away with the use of the 12.25

That's cuz you're at sea level.
Chris...

[Tim Wescott]

That's cuz you're at sea level.
Chris...

So, in Death Valley the LA 25 will work fine?

[Scott B. Riese]

Yep........even without Boraxo 

[Tim Wescott]

You can lead a horse to water....However, it easier to ride it.
Far from me to help...BUT K.I.S.S
Fox 40.....too much
LA-46...Too MUCH
Fox .35...Good
Enya 30...Good
LA-25...Good

You are keeping in mind that I am by no means an expert flyer, and that I'm not going to be tossing out 70% of the wood to replace it with contest-grade.  Yes?

[Mark Scarborough]

That's cuz you're at sea level.
Chris...

actually I live and fly at 2500 feet,, my contests are at 400 feet,, just sayin

[john e. holliday]

Might have to go with shorter lines with the LA .25.   

[Joejust]

Tim, over the years since SIG first came out with the Twister I have built 13 of them.  The last 3 or 4 were powered by Irving.25's which are a much more powerful engine than the vererable Fox.35 the Twister was designed around.  My current Twister has over 300 flights on it and it will fly much better than my meager attempts, and really does not need anthing bigger.  Just a thought.  Also, are you really having any fun at all?  Sometimes your threads seem to be less than happy.  Just a thought in passing.
Joe

[Mike Haverly]

    Five years ago I built a "Fancherized Twister" which is still being flown by Steve Helmick.  It has a Magnum .36 on it and I never considered it to be over powered, in fact I thought a little more wouldn't hurt.  I sure Tim is having fun, he's just trying to learn and sometimes a seemingly simple question can become overwhelming with so many different answers.  I have and engine that I have offered Tim which will work fine if it is a true F Twister. 
    A couple of years ago one of the local fliers asked me:  "Do you ever go flying just for fun?"  The answer was that I always go flying because it is fun!  It seems that he doesn't care if his airplane doesn't fly well and isn't interested in improving them and couldn't understand why I and the other competitive fliers around here are always messing with our set ups.
    Truth is, in my opinion, a .25 even an LA would haul a Twister around but more power will definitely help Tim's progress.  And he will have fun if he can get some help with trim.

[Tim Wescott]

Also, are you really having any fun at all?  Sometimes your threads seem to be less than happy.

I'm not sure why they come across that way, but I am having lots of fun.  Perhaps it's because I'm trained as a design engineer -- there's a (mostly correct) rule of thumb for design engineering that an error that isn't caught at a particular step in a process costs 10 times to fix in the subsequent step, 100 times in the one after that, etc.  This leads you to really think things through (and yes, sometimes to overthink), so my tendency is to start thinking (and asking questions) about things early.   Then when I do get some time in the shop or the field I can use it to greatest effect.

Richard Entwistle watched me fly my Fright Streak at the last Fireballs meeting.  He made the comment that I may not be getting much practice in, but that I obviously think about the pattern a lot.  He's perceptive: when I'm home, and it's dark, and I need to be upstairs helping to herd kids, I can often be found in the family room practicing the pattern, using the overhead track lights as a reference for wingovers, overhead eights, and cloverleafs (I think they're going to get a crossbar for the cloverleafs, although I'll probably get in trouble if I just use a black felt pen and a ruler to make it).

I sure Tim is having fun, he's just trying to learn and sometimes a seemingly simple question can become overwhelming with so many different answers.

It can be a challenge to sort through everything, but I like to hear reasons along with the recommendations I get (even if they're "I don't know, that just works for me").  My Inner Demon is joggling my elbow, telling me to say that the nice thing about getting so many contradictory opinions is that it frees me up to do what I wanted to in the first place -- but that's more humorous than true.

I have an engine that I have offered Tim which will work fine if it is a true F Twister. 

Yes, and I'm thinking that I should name the plane "Gratitude".  I appreciate all the help I'm getting from guys in this community.

A couple of years ago one of the local fliers asked me:  "Do you ever go flying just for fun?"  The answer was that I always go flying because it is fun!  It seems that he doesn't care if his airplane doesn't fly well and isn't interested in improving them and couldn't understand why I and the other competitive fliers around here are always messing with our set ups.

I get a great deal of satisfaction with making a change in a plane and having it fly better -- even just having it fly different, or even worse, because I know I just learned something.  And I certainly enjoy flying the pattern in practice.

So I must also be one of those "yes, but this is fun" crew.

At my level I'm not going to contests to win, or even to "compete", per se -- I'm going to fly in front of people, have experts like Mike judge my performance, and meet all the other folks that are doing the same thing.  My big goal right now is just to perform as well at contests as I do in practice; winning out over other people comes in a distant second or third place to that.

Truth is, in my opinion, a .25 even an LA would haul a Twister around but more power will definitely help Tim's progress.  And he will have fun if he can get some help with trim.

My impression from reading the posts in this thread is that if I built it light I could get away with using an LA 25 or a Fox 35 -- but then I'd be spending my time learning how to work around an airplane with barely enough power, instead of how to fly the pattern.  So (with apologies to Scott, who we all know flies way better than me) I think a bigger engine is probably right for me.