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Author Topic: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.  (Read 3249 times)

Offline Curare

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Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« on: December 20, 2018, 03:56:33 PM »
IF you weren't a drone-hater before, this may well change your mind.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-46640033
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 09:10:52 PM by Curare »
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Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: Knucklehad with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2018, 04:08:58 PM »
Oh, nothing to see here. Probably just a new AMA member trying out his "model airplane", and I'm sure he is exercising good judgement and flying in good faith.

Gary
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Knucklehad with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2018, 04:44:15 PM »
Oh, nothing to see here. Probably just a new AMA member trying out his "model airplane", and I'm sure he is exercising good judgement and flying in good faith.

Gary

    This was in England! Waiting to hear how this is handled. Frankly, I wonder sometimes if they just over react to these 'sightings." As of this evening, all I had heard was that they were still looking for the operator'operators. But I'll bet when they were first sighted, all hell broke loose and sirens wailed and things were released on the news so the perps had time to get away. Why not just keep an eye on them and calmly alert local air traffic to be aware of them while you stalk the ignorant S.O.B.s! I get Aeromodeller magazine but I don't think I have ever read anything in them about issues with drones like we get here in Model Aviation.
    Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
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Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Knucklehad with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2018, 05:16:52 PM »
Most production engines, where ever they are made, are aimed at the R/C market, where weight isn't much of as factor.

We already have some excellent stunt engines,  from USA and eastern Europe.  No need to experiment with something new , unless proven by time and use.
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Knucklehad with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2018, 06:43:06 PM »
Confusion seems rampant in this thread!

Also, it sounds like more than one drone operator is involved, so seems like a conspiracy. When they catch the perps, it would be fun to taz them, followed by lots of rubber bullets and then some days of waterboarding. But maybe that's just me.  LL~ Steve
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Knucklehad with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2018, 06:49:39 PM »
Confusion seems rampant in this thread!

Also, it sounds like more than one drone operator is involved, so seems like a conspiracy. When they catch the perps, it would be fun to taz them, followed by lots of rubber bullets and then some days of waterboarding. But maybe that's just me.  LL~ Steve

    But, the AMA assures us that they will be there to "self police" the situation, so never fear, we aren't going to get regulated.

    Oy Gevalt!

    Brett

Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Knucklehad with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2018, 06:53:53 PM »
Yep, Bob Brown's "future of model aviation" just shut-down a major UK airport, stranding thousands of passengers.   Hoo-boy!

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Offline Bill Ervin

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Re: Knucklehad with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2018, 07:02:22 PM »
Sussex police ruled out shooting the drone down for fear of “stray bullets”.

Well, see, there’s your problem right there because, even at 11-yrs-old growing up in Minnesota, I would have known the go-to weapon of choice woulda been a 12 ga..   OUR police keep them on the dash.

Offline Curare

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Re: Knucklehad with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2018, 07:20:59 PM »
Sussex police ruled out shooting the drone down for fear of “stray bullets”.

Well, see, there’s your problem right there because, even at 11-yrs-old growing up in Minnesota, I would have known the go-to weapon of choice woulda been a 12 ga..   OUR police keep them on the dash.

Whats the range on a 12 guage Bill?
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Offline Jim Kraft

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Re: Knucklehad with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2018, 07:24:33 PM »
The perps are probably no where near he drones as they are no doubt flying them by GPS. They could be anywhere and moving all the time. But AMA has it all under control in this country.  LL~ LL~ LL~ The bad thing is, FAA has been given carte blanch to do what ever they deem necessary to control the problem. We have not seen their ruling under 107 yet. We have no idea what they are going to require except for the 400' rule

Then it will be written by lawyers so that the grey area is so grey that only they can interpret it however they want. Make no mistake, The public sees only one thing. Model airplanes are drones. Uh, i do not believe drones are the future of model aviation. Maybe it's final resting place.
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Offline Curare

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Re: Knucklehad with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2018, 07:28:52 PM »
The perps are probably no where near he drones as they are no doubt flying them by GPS. They could be anywhere and moving all the time. But AMA has it all under control in this country.  LL~ LL~ LL~ The bad thing is, FAA has been given carte blanch to do what ever they deem necessary to control the problem. We have not seen their ruling under 107 yet. We have no idea what they are going to require except for the 400' rule

Then it will be written by lawyers so that the grey area is so grey that only they can interpret it however they want. Make no mistake, The public sees only one thing. Model airplanes are drones. Uh, i do not believe drones are the future of model aviation. Maybe it's final resting place.

I agree, there will be a backlash from this event in the UK and it will no doubt be used by other countries as evidence for stricter controls on UAV/UAS (which radio models are).

Would geofencing have stopped this?
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Offline pmackenzie

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Re: Knucklehad with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2018, 07:35:46 PM »


Would geofencing have stopped this?

Yes and no.
Sort of like locks only stop honest people from breaking in somewhere, something like geofencing only stops those who don't want to figure out how to get around it.

MAAC 8177

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Knucklehad with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2018, 07:57:01 PM »
Probly some rich snot 8 yr old , testing out his cristmas present early .

You have to wonder about the p. c. aspect ,

As you say , two minutes and a 12 G . Just like possums in the pergoda at 2 am .

Wierd sense of priorities , could sort it out for 10 quid in short order . Whereas MEGA inconveniance and Mega Bucks consequeces .

I hope he gets counselling and proper training . Might have to limit his use of it for a while . But this might hurt his feelings
and have long term phycological consequeces , whereas he'd be able to sue ' the State ' , for Trauma etc.
So may as well give him the millions payout and forget about it . Though this would deprive massive teams of layers there massive entitilments , form styringing it out and leaving no stone untured .
We will have to go forward progressively and take account of cultual sensitivities religious entitilments and gender biased acceptability .
Perhaps hes l b g t and cant be held to account due to something that mayve happened at kindergarten .

 H^^ :-X

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Knucklehad with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2018, 08:35:44 PM »
I don't believe the people of merry ole England are allowed to have shot guns.  Never see any weapons other than a billy club in their hand. D>K
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Knucklehad with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2018, 09:40:24 PM »
Well those travelers could take a ferry or train via the "chunnel" to France and fly out of there. Second the FAA bans ALL drones" and allows only CL modeling.  A win win for us. Yeah, dream on. LL~

   I don't consider the potential of banning otherwise-innocent forms of modeling except for CL to be a "win" for anyone.

    Of course, what is far more likely is that the FAA will put in requirements for things like geo-fencing software and license requirements that are completely inapplicable and impossible to comply with, leaving RC and drones with a hope of continuing at great difficulty -  and the rest of us royally screwed.


      Brett

Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: Knucklehad with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2018, 10:18:49 PM »
   I don't consider the potential of banning otherwise-innocent forms of modeling except for CL to be a "win" for anyone.

    Of course, what is far more likely is that the FAA will put in requirements for things like geo-fencing software and license requirements that are completely inapplicable and impossible to comply with, leaving RC and drones with a hope of continuing at great difficulty -  and the rest of us royally screwed.


      Brett
I'm inclined to agree with Brett, if for no other reason than the idea that if RC takes a big hit from lack of participation because of regulation, it will damage the market that supplies us engines and tanks and a host of other things we need. If that happens it will hugely impact the CL community.  Thanks drone guys.

Gary
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Knucklehad with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2018, 10:31:07 PM »
I'm inclined to agree with Brett, if for no other reason than the idea that if RC takes a big hit from lack of participation because of regulation, it will damage the market that supplies us engines and tanks and a host of other things we need. If that happens it will hugely impact the CL community.  Thanks drone guys.

  I think the biggest issue will be concerning requirements for software, transponders, etc, that we cannot comply with (or can only with crippling side effects) making us de facto illegal.

     Brett

Offline Curare

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Re: Knucklehad with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2018, 10:57:58 PM »
  I think the biggest issue will be concerning requirements for software, transponders, etc, that we cannot comply with (or can only with crippling side effects) making us de facto illegal.

     Brett

I guess this comes back to the legal determination of a control line aircraft - tethered aircraft, similar to a kite, or UAS, similar to a quad copter.

Neither are true representations of the sport, but I feel you will be round pegs crammed through either a triangular, or square (quad?) hole.
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2018, 11:36:48 PM »
Did Aeromexico confirm whether their damaged 737-800 was hit by a drone or was it a bird? This was on or about Dec. 14th on approach to Tijuana. From the photos of the damaged radome, I'm confident that there will be debris inside the radar compartment, so a determination is going to be simple.

It is going to take a piece of change to pay for a new radome and antenna for that one....

Dave

Ref.:    https://www.ocregister.com/2018/12/14/mexican-passenger-jet-damaged-in-possible-midair-drone-hit/

Offline katana

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2018, 03:31:04 AM »
Jeez - some of the comments in this thread certainly reinforce the stereotype of an American that the rest of the world has! You jump to conclusions without facts, make assumptions without checking the facts and generally consider the edge of the world is where the water meets the shore of coastal USA! Rant Over HB~>

For info 2 or more drones were spotted at 4.00am Thursday morning, close to, and over the boundary of the airport and the last reported sighting was approx 10.00pm (both local times) The drones are reported as being of Industrial scale ie. big heavy mothers capable of long duration and heavy payloads. Given that it is likely these aren't being flown 'Line of Sight', the pilots could be sitting in a car in the surrounding woods or a car in the airport - who knows.

And yes we do have shotguns - we are also pretty good with them - Last Olympics skeet and / or trap - Winner from UK, 26 times Sporting Clay World champ - George Digweed, UK, World record distance shot with shotgun @ 135 yds - George Digweed. But with something that has a speed of 50 - 60+mph in ANY direction even getting a helicopter to within 50 yds would be difficult! Personally i'd have a good sniper put a 7.62 through the damn thing and deal with the consequences later but no doubt in our risk adverse society it won't happen!

Offline Chuck_Smith

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2018, 04:54:34 AM »
We need to differentiate ourselves from multirotors, FPV and anything that is stabilized and has a GPS receiver. People who watch a store-bought thing fly on it's own are not "aeromodelers" and have nothing to do with what I believe the AMA should be all about.


All IMHO. YMMV.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2018, 09:59:14 AM »
Jeez - some of the comments in this thread certainly reinforce the stereotype of an American that the rest of the world has! You jump to conclusions without facts, make assumptions without checking the facts and generally consider the edge of the world is where the water meets the shore of coastal USA!

  When it comes to showing your superior reason and global perspective, nothing beats a screed chock full of stereotypes about people you haven't met.

    I think that everyone here is fully aware of the fact that the rest of the world exists. Millions of Americans have died and uncounted trillions of dollars have gone to protecting it.

     Brett

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2018, 11:15:50 AM »
Jeez - some of the comments in this thread certainly reinforce the stereotype of an American that the rest of the world has! You jump to conclusions without facts, make assumptions without checking the facts and generally consider the edge of the world is where the water meets the shore of coastal USA! Rant Over HB~>

For info 2 or more drones were spotted at 4.00am Thursday morning, close to, and over the boundary of the airport and the last reported sighting was approx 10.00pm (both local times) The drones are reported as being of Industrial scale ie. big heavy mothers capable of long duration and heavy payloads. Given that it is likely these aren't being flown 'Line of Sight', the pilots could be sitting in a car in the surrounding woods or a car in the airport - who knows.

And yes we do have shotguns - we are also pretty good with them - Last Olympics skeet and / or trap - Winner from UK, 26 times Sporting Clay World champ - George Digweed, UK, World record distance shot with shotgun @ 135 yds - George Digweed. But with something that has a speed of 50 - 60+mph in ANY direction even getting a helicopter to within 50 yds would be difficult! Personally i'd have a good sniper put a 7.62 through the damn thing and deal with the consequences later but no doubt in our risk adverse society it won't happen!


Well, at least it's comforting to see that some (maybe a lot) of you "Brits" still have the same stuffy, stuffed shirt attitude towards Americans that you have always had!  It must really bother you Blighters to constantly live with the realization that without America you would all be speaking German...or possibly simply wouldn't be speaking at all.

For 5 years in the 1960's, as an Officer in the US Army stationed in Malta on a NATO assignment, I put up with that general attitude, from most of the "snooty" British officers there.  Fortunately it didn't last long after the Maltese got tired of you Guys also and kicked you out of their country!

Seems you haven't changed much! 

Randy Cuberly
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Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2018, 01:31:25 PM »
I am dismayed at this news.  I had thought that only Ugly Americans were stupid enough to fly a drone near an airport.  Now it seems that there are Brits who share this same lack of I.Q.  I am dismayed because I have always had the belief that Brits were reserved, sane, and totally in-control.
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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2018, 02:34:41 PM »
Several thoughts...shotgun efficacy is limited to close in shooting....ON BBS we see the drones moving fast and at an unknown but high altitude ...No professional sniper or  shot-gunner would ever risk the shot

We forget..cuz we are so fixated on the AMA's insane love of these things

Congress mandated the DOT and FAA to DO SOMETHING becaus of the more and more frequent Drone Encroachments on Emergency air space thus grounding Critical aircraft to surveillance or fight fires in California circa 2011~2012

Now we have yet another predictable event...do not forget for one second that a Muslim population in Great Britten approaching 15% may be one possible factor in this event.

Hopefully not but dry runs for terrorist events are actually pretty common now in Europe

Lots of stupid non- effective anti drone technologies are going to be purchased with our tax dollars
Lots of new Political chest thumping and meaningless legislation

Many of you seem to not even really understand that Hobby King sells all sorts of fixed wing First Person View Drones...every day...so it is not just the WalMart $189 Quad or Hex Copter

Fact is ANY RC air CRAFT can be fitted with real sophisticated electronics..Video, GPS Nav, Return Home, autonomous flight from take off to return

Powered, Gliders, helicopters, Cars, Boats...little micro tiny tiny  the sized of a fly and smaller----to 747 and bigger sized craft can be now used without any human on board...A DRONE!
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

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Offline Mike Griffin

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2018, 03:47:08 PM »
Getting away from the British thing for a moment,  I belong to several modeling groups on facebook.  Some are RC groups and Some are CL groups and some are mixed.  They are all having conversations very similar to the ones we are having on here in regard to these quad and hexacopter incidents and they are just as perplexed as we are about where this is all going.  There is one central theme that runs through all of these groups and that is they all feel that the hobby seems to be in jeopardy and are worried as what the future will be for flying any type of model airplane.  This is shaping up as a "us against them" situation and no one really knows how it is going to end. 

Mike

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2018, 05:42:15 PM »
Mike,
Do you belong to any facebook drone groups? What are they saying?

The preconditions for this discussion (about drones and overall regulation) essentially require this to become an "us vs. them" conversation. How the "us" and the "them" are defined will stage the answers. If you belong to one of the groups listed below when the questions are asked, then in your role as an "us" your answer is pretty predictable.

1. Government officials charged with homeland security
2. FAA and related regulatory bodies charged with keeping the skies safe
3. Interest groups and unions such as ALPA
4. Traveling public who want to take off when scheduled and don't want to be involved in an incident, whether a minor mid-air or the plane being brought down
5. Public with right to privacy concerns and not having their property (like a car parked in the street) being damaged by an errant drone
6. Hobbiests: dronies, C/L'ers, park fliers, free-flighters, heliboys, etc.
6. Commercial operators trying to run an imaging business and offer services to industries

What the AMA is finding out, is that the historical precedent of hands off regulation for traditional modeling is not going to translate over to the latest rage in flying objects, which I believe should be categorized by the distinguishing characteristic:

   --GPS coupled autopilot with flight planning software, including return to home

Perhaps a different way of thinking about the issue is now in order. I will offer the legal precedents associated with toxic waste as now being relevant. If you generate toxic waste in the USA, you are now responsible for what is done with it. All the past regulations were ineffective and did not stop huge incidents from occurring. So now, you are not shielded if you paid "Joe-fly-by-night-Co" to haul it away, and he simply dumps it down the drain, or abandons it in a trailer across the state somewhere.  Consider this approach then with drones. The manufacturers and distributors are now liable for creating equipment and selling it to unqualified operators (that is, they operate irresponsibly either thru ignorance--which is no excuse--or thru malicious intent.) If an airliner is brought down by taking a 7 lb drone thru the pilot's windscreen on final approach, and the source of manufacture and sale is identified, then they are responsible for damages. Now, they might try to buy insurance (starting to sound like a real business, now isn't it?) but they might not actually be able to purchase any. And their apparently lucrative "drone bubble" would self regulate away.

What about the current case at Gatwick? Perhaps the finding would be that  xxx thousand individuals were inconvenienced yyy hours equating to zzz dollars, and such a liability assessed. If the offender is a minor, then apply the usual laws, which have some flexibility, I believe(?)--that assign responsibility to the parent/guardian. Make all of these laws and court cases abundantly clear to the general population. It will inform their choices about leisure pursuits. When you sign up for homeowners insurance, it says right there that you agree that trampoline accidents and injuries are not covered, right? Don't buy the thing and then submit claims hoping they will be covered and saying you didn't know it was risky or that the neighbor's kids shouldn't have played on it.

I suspect that from the FAA's viewpoint, if all drone operations (those with BLOS capability, coupled GPS/autopilot, etc.) were operated by someone with a commercial pilot's license, then the liability situation is largely put back the way it was prior to consumer drones. I think the FAA will either chip away at the problem until they get this, chivvying along the law makers until they demand it, thus providing cover, or until the drone situation collapses as a fad. I don't think they can wait, or count on, the later.

Unfortunately, the US regulating bodies have let the rabbit get out of the hat. (The FCC for example could have regulated frequency hopping equipment.) Putting it back in will now be painful. It is a given at this point. Depending on who wields the meat cleaver when new regulations are flowed down, some or all hobbiests may be significantly affected. The AMA approach said that they didn't want a glass half full, they wanted all disciplines to remain substantially unregulated. So the FAA busted their glass for bringing the wrong answer. We may now be half of nothing. And the museum in Muncie may be just that--a museum.

My thoughts,

Dave


Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2018, 08:46:08 PM »
I'm still confused on how all this applies to a simple tethered model airplane that flies around in a circle and uses no radio control equipment can possibly be confused with an FPV Drone.   Ain't gonna happen!  Even the Government isn't that Stupid!

It doesn't require much intelligence or knowledge to quickly see the difference.  Why do we as control line fliers give a whit beyond feeling sorry for some of our brethren R/C buddies.

I'm afraid I can't buy that the regulations will contain specifics to regulate C/L also.  Yes there might be a bit of confusion at first but that should be easy to deal with.

It would be even easier to separate the situation if our AMA leadership wasn't quite so STUPID!

R/C.....Not so easy and will probably be regulated out of existence.  Technology and the Evil ways of some people Demand it.

Actually I would worry more about what the "Evil" intentions of "facebook" are doing to our Kids and young people!  But that's another topic and much more harmful according to the experts!

Randy Cuberly

 
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2018, 09:33:41 PM »
I'm still confused on how all this applies to a simple tethered model airplane that flies around in a circle and uses no radio control equipment can possibly be confused with an FPV Drone.   Ain't gonna happen!  Even the Government isn't that Stupid!

    No one (outside a very small group) *has any idea that such a thing as control line even exists*. Most RC people have no notion of such a thing,  never even heard of it. We are easily 2 and maybe 3 generations past where control line was commonly flown/seen. They will destroy it blindly/mindlessly without even knowing about it by poorly written regulations that require things we can't possibly provide.

    A lot of people who have been doing this a long time have completely lost perspective on reality. The world we knew where you could buy Cox airplanes at any department store, or where there were "hobby shops" that sold model construction supplies in every town, or even finding plastic models at drug stores, toy stores, department stores, etc, is *long gone*  - 30-40 years ago. Virtually no one under the age of about 40 even knows about modeling in the sense we understand it. Go into a "hobby shop" (Say, Hobby Lobby) today and it has glitter and "sticky glue", art supplies,  and a bunch of stuff I can't even identify.  Model airplanes as we would understand them are universally referred to as "RC", but you will have trouble find anything but ARF Toys or helicopter, or drones.

      It is very unrealistic to expect anyone in the general public to make any sort of distinctions between things like we do. It's not unreasonable to expect the AMA - who supposedly represents our interests - to make those distinctions, but they seem to want to reflect the general publics understanding instead of their constituents. I can almost guarantee that the AMA *will not* attempt to explain it to the people in government, because they don't care about it enough to make the effort - if they can't get a free ride for RC and drones, their plan is shot, they don't care about Plan B or how it affects us

     Brett

Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2018, 09:47:29 PM »
One idea I had is this. And others can try the same thing.
Each summer at a local community airport they have a huge open house. I will be approaching the organizers to see about putting together a control line display. Hopefully to include both static display and flight demos.
If I get a green light on it I plan to put together a description of CL flying with enough details of its history and function to inform, but simple enough that the general public will understand it.

After the first of the year I'll begin to try making the connections needed to see if there is any way to do it. IF it works, I know we have a few skilled stunt guys in the area who could possibly be teased with the notion.

Gary
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Offline Mike Griffin

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2018, 09:52:26 PM »
Hi Dave,

No I do not belong to any drone groups and my knowledge of quad/hexacopters is limited to what we do with them in the Civil Air Patrol for Emergency Services/Search and Rescue.  The ones we us are in the neighborhood of $10,000 dollars each, not your Best Buy Christmas present.

The groups I am talking about are composed of folks just like us that like to fly, primarily, fixed wing model airplanes.  All of the RC guys are very worried about what the future of their hobby will be because of these things or if there will even be a future for them and the free flight guys.  These are the people who seem to be in the cross hairs of the government agencies....for right now.


When I said "us against them" I was referring more to people who fly REAL model airplanes vs the "drone" fliers. 


You would think/hope that common sense among whatever governing body (FAA?) is going to make the rules, would certainly exempt Control Line airplanes from any repressive regulations but then again, the government entities are void of any common sense and anything they came up with would not surprise me at all.  They have absolutely no idea what a control line airplane is, I guarantee you.


All I was trying to say in my post was that we are not alone in the anxiety we are experiencing.  All facets and groups who fly legitimate model aircraft are equally as worried as us about the long range effect on a wonderful and rewarding hobby which may very well go the way of the buggy whip.


I might also add that a lot of the comments I read on these groups compare the AMA to tits on a Boar hog. 


Mike

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2018, 11:03:17 PM »
Mike,

Thanks for the clarifications.

In regard to other comments here:

1. While the AMA was in the midst of their lobbying, I made contact with our guy, and essentially his answer regarding control line was that we (AMA, and in his viewpoint, the voice of all modelers) could not afford to complicate the discussion by dividing out one form of the hobby that has no possible threat to:  national security, VIPs or VIP transport, continental airspace or any FAA control thereof, or anything else I can think of. This "bundle or die" policy by our representatives now has to be undone if control line is to remain as it is. We can either convince the AMA leadership to do this or we can start doing it on our own.*

2. At the field where I mostly fly, there is a pretty well integrated plan that allows the two types of hobby drone operators to coexist with the heli guys and the rest of us. That is not to say that the heli guys are completely happy, since they were impacted the most. And the CL guys get pretty upset when a drone flies over or thru our circles. We are trying to educate our way out of that problem and it is less frequent than it was.

3. Some of the bluster I have read on a few drone sites is what would worry me the most. Kind of a "screw you and the government, they can't tell me how to operate" kind of thing. Most of those guys probably would never go to a flying field, so they are pretty much out of view to traditional modelers. So how many are really doing crazy things? I'm not sure anyone knows.

4. To Gary's point, our club has been supporting local air fairs for years. It gets C/L out into the public eye some. It can't hurt as long as those operations are conducted safely. So far we are doing ok. To my knowledge, it has not brought in any active modelers, but we always hope for that.

5. To Brett's point about C/L being unknown, I would have to agree. Our C/L circles are right across a narrow, shared parking lot with the R/C guys. We often get old guys that say "I didn't know anyone did that anymore."  Those are possible prospects. We get younger guys that come out to fly their first R/C plane and they can't understand how we are controlling the plane. If you want to blow the youngest guys minds, fly some C/L carrier (or even better, some Bi-Slob) where a 3-D R/C guy can see it. They can't believe someone can do that without R/C.

6. Pardon me if I keep pounding my message:  I don't have any issues with the line of sight FPV style drones if they can evolve better safety consciousness. I have a problem with platforms with coupled GPS/autopilot with sophisticated software. Regulate what needs to be regulated for public safety and security reasons. If you want to operate those, go get a new-class FAA license. Learn the real meaning of see and avoid.

7. I don't know the current rules for jets**, but if I were leading the AMA or the Jet special interest group, I would put out a blanket prohibition that under no circumstances would any turbine-powered model have a GPS or camera function on board. In the future, it might be something that would preserve their current right to fly.


Dave


* In todays reality, perhaps the quickest, easiest method is to resort to the mode now used everywhere--public shaming and tweet juries. Get some good video of a guy with a plane tied to his wrist and have the FAA/Police officer explain how this is a risk to all of the traveling public using airliners. And be sure to have either a teen spokesperson explain just how stupid the enforcement is, or someone who looks and acts like everyone's grandpa, and looks kind of bewildered. And be sure to make the point that if an airliner flies thru a public park at 70' altitude, that we got some much bigger problems to solve than arresting grandpa....

** I'd look them up, but ever since the AMA "upgraded" their website, my computer freezes after about 4-5 seconds. Still don't know how to fix that.....


Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2018, 01:19:44 AM »
    No one (outside a very small group) *has any idea that such a thing as control line even exists*. Most RC people have no notion of such a thing,  never even heard of it. We are easily 2 and maybe 3 generations past where control line was commonly flown/seen. They will destroy it blindly/mindlessly without even knowing about it by poorly written regulations that require things we can't possibly provide.

    A lot of people who have been doing this a long time have completely lost perspective on reality. The world we knew where you could buy Cox airplanes at any department store, or where there were "hobby shops" that sold model construction supplies in every town, or even finding plastic models at drug stores, toy stores, department stores, etc, is *long gone*  - 30-40 years ago. Virtually no one under the age of about 40 even knows about modeling in the sense we understand it. Go into a "hobby shop" (Say, Hobby Lobby) today and it has glitter and "sticky glue", art supplies,  and a bunch of stuff I can't even identify.  Model airplanes as we would understand them are universally referred to as "RC", but you will have trouble find anything but ARF Toys or helicopter, or drones.

      It is very unrealistic to expect anyone in the general public to make any sort of distinctions between things like we do. It's not unreasonable to expect the AMA - who supposedly represents our interests - to make those distinctions, but they seem to want to reflect the general publics understanding instead of their constituents. I can almost guarantee that the AMA *will not* attempt to explain it to the people in government, because they don't care about it enough to make the effort - if they can't get a free ride for RC and drones, their plan is shot, they don't care about Plan B or how it affects us

     Brett

Brett,
Yes I completely understand about the general public's ignorance of CL models and their flight regimen, but I have a very hard time swallowing that the FAA is that ignorant of their existence and flight limitations.  They have been contacted and questioned a number of times by people right here on this forum.  I have seen written discussions of this subject with the FAA right here on this Forum.  I believe that many people in the FAA are cognizant of their existence and have even heard of them simply being referred to as "the same as tethered kites". 

However every time this type of discussion comes around, most here tend to fall back to ground zero and assume that no one at the rule making level has ever heard of Control Line models.  I seriously doubt that is true!  Rich Hansen, now President of the AMA is most definitely aware of Control Line flying and in fact used to fly Control Line and actually flew a loaned  control line model here in Tucson several years ago at a "VSC".  Hansen is a very nice man and I do not believe that he would deliberately allow ignorance of the Control Line question to go unnoticed by the FAA rule makers!

I'm not suggesting that WE ignore the situation and simply hope that I'm right about the FAA being aware of the control line dilemma.  But I think it's not "back to the beginning of discussions" with them each time the question arises!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Greg McCoy

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2018, 09:56:36 AM »
Two arrested in drone incident. Many details about the military anti-drone tech. These were large drones, flying on the end of the runway.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8042572/gatwick-airport-arrests-latest-cyclist-spotted/
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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2018, 11:37:44 AM »
I have harped and pontificated on this a LOT

DOT and FAA mandated by Congress to "DO SOMETHING" have a tough tight rope to tip toe on

Yes lots of bad actor potential that needs to be mitigated

In 2012 when the DOT and FAA ignored the Hobby Carve out that congress wrote into law...I could see and understand the FAA position...Their pure job is to manage and control all AIR SPACE for commerce and safety...and do not think for one minuet that for Appointees, commerce---- is not JOB ONE!

Remember, there are tens of thousands of very good uses and legitimate needs for sophisticated drones.

Like gun owners, the MAJORITY of commercial drone operations are legal and law abiding citizens of companies or corporations

You only know about Gatwick cuz it is slow news day near Christmas..a good story...lots of folks travel screwed

But this year the drone safety encroachments are 2 fold from last year...sorry folks but CNN, MSNC, FOX, et all--- are dead asleep at reporting relevant news...so fixated on nonsense like the D T tweets



« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 02:40:19 PM by Fredvon4 »
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Offline Jim Kraft

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2018, 02:55:37 PM »
From what I have read so far, the 400' rule along with 100 mph rule will be mandatory.. That eliminates quite a bit including jets. At least most I have seen go well over 100. Most are designed to fly fast as they have very low wing area. I have seen nothing about when we can expect a ruling and what will be in it. Sounds like there will be a test to certify all model aviation, and of course a fee. Possibly transponders. We really do not know what to expect, but the well publicized drone incidents are not going to help. The public is only going to see the bad side and demand action. But, wait and see.
Jim Kraft

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2018, 07:24:47 PM »
I can add to the "no one knows CL outside of the circle," ooh, a pun!

Anyway, I work on the local Air Force Base. There is legal mumbo-jumbo that restricts any flying of any type on the base. A family can't fly even a kite, let alone CL. It all falls under the Blue Suit's definition of Unmanned Airial Vehicle.

I've been trying to petition the Base Commander to allow CL on the "walking track" that used to be the base golf course. Imagine really close cut, fine blade grass that screams for a CL plane flying over it. The scene is absolutely perfect.

First thing is to bring the base leadership to understand "we aren't drone." Second is to get base leadership to understand "this thing CAN'T fly on it's own."

Third thing is to have them tell me how well their planes fly with the stick released, and hard-right pedal applied. This is to get them to understand that IF TWO lines broke, my plane crashes no more than 100 feet away. If only ONE line breaks, it crashes no more than the remaining line away.

Then I try to get them to see my proposed flight area is Arbor-fenced by the HUGE 65 foot-100 foot tall trees surrounding a beautiful, flat, open area almost 300 feet across. I can't get them to see that there is NO WAY my plane can leave "my hands," and fly ALL THE WAY to the active runways 1/2 mile away, nor CLIMB into the flight patterns that are restricted from flying BELOW 1000 feet over the entire base (well, except for the runways).

I keep three 1/2A models hanging on the wall behind my desk. Everyone coming in asks "are those drones?" When I explain the concept to young airmen, they can't believe people do this, and never heard of it. When I explain it to pilots, they say "my grandfather did this." When I run them through the above three scenarios, they concede my point.

Yet no one on the base is willing to concede how CL could be different from RC, let alone RPV/FPV drones...or even "just quad-copters." The pros are programmed to "distrust" even kites...which could actually leave the operator's controls, "free flight" away, and land on the runway (if the wind blew just right).

I hope I'm wrong, but if educated, skilled, experienced members of our Air Force can't make the distinctions, then neither are our every day, run if the mill, beaurocrats.

Oh, ,I did check FAA registrations for "model aircraft fliers" in my area. I noted 70-some odd registrants...I've somehow discovered two and made contact with them. We haven't flown together yet.

I hope I die before "they" can bust onto private property, seize my "little toy planes, and possibly arrest/convict me for having too much fun. I doubt AMA membership could help at all, so I don't bother considering becoming affiliated with them.

Isn't it funny that we can't fly our archaic toys while we speed ahead towards driverless cars? I bet our hobby is legislated out of existence around the same time my antique cars are no longer allowed on public roads!

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2018, 08:01:43 PM »
Porsche_Jim,

Would it be helpful to point out that the Navy hosted ALL types of pre-drone, pre-quadcopter flying on airbases all over the country? Places that were active airfields with aircraft stored on them? Where modelers flew off the ramps? And so did the Air Force previously, at places like March AFB in Riverside, CA? And that the world never came to an end?  And that you would be not only willing to fly with no camera installed, but that the planes you fly are not equipped to do so? So you are not a surveillance threat? And flying only 70' high, and behind your "arbor," you wouldn't see anything but grassy park anyway?

Finally, that they must have already done a security check on you, since you are on the base. And, why would you do something Bozo, since this could impact your employment? That you have serious skin in the game?

Just a few thoughts,

Dave

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2018, 08:20:10 PM »
All good points, Dave. I even showed "Leadership" Vandenburg AFB's UAV authorization request paperwork.

Unfortunately, my local base finds it easier to just say "No." It used to do RC day on non-flying weekends as late as a few years ago for base families. However, the crowd was small, barely attended.

I truly believe this just proves we are lumped together with the other types of  aircraft unless we distance ourselves from the autonomous UAV type aircraft.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2018, 09:00:39 PM »
944_Jim, I'd speculate that the CO there is just in "CYA" mode and figures you should find a place off-base to fly your toy airplane.

When I was a HS Sophomore, we lived at Edwards AFB...across the street from the General's house, and a few houses down from the Base CO's house. I taught the General's son to fly CL, and one day taught the General also. The Base CO had CL models in his garage and knew how to fly them. There is a small patch of Rosamond Dry Lake that the local R/C club flew on...I think my brother and I were the closest thing to Military personnel in the club and using it. It was still large enough that a guy lost his R/C model when it taxied out of sight.  Approaching 60 years ago, a different time.  :'( Steve 
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In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Chuck_Smith

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2018, 02:56:13 PM »
I can add to the "no one knows CL outside of the circle," ooh, a pun!

Anyway, I work on the local Air Force Base. There is legal mumbo-jumbo that restricts any flying of any type on the base. A family can't fly even a kite, let alone CL. It all falls under the Blue Suit's definition of Unmanned Airial Vehicle.

I've been trying to petition the Base Commander to allow CL on the "walking track" that used to be the base golf course. Imagine really close cut, fine blade grass that screams for a CL plane flying over it. The scene is absolutely perfect.

...


Jim,

I've seen several controline planes "max out" once they became free flight. I remember one year at the NATs when two combat ships twisted their lines, detached from their pilots and flew out of sight like a giant whirlygig. A fuel shutoff wouldn't have stopped them.

It becomes a matter of degrees then. Do you allow only 1/2A stunt or do you also allow vintage combat planes? Dynajets? Once the rules are in place, who enforces them?

A club I'm a member of had the same issue with R/C planes. We had a factory built near the end of one of our runways. Lot's a guys thought, "Well, we can limit it to electrics and keep that runway operational". Guess what, I show up with my 8S 110mm EDF - and it's electric, fast, loud and scary. So how do you regulate what's acceptable? In the end the best option was to shut down the runway since defining and policing it was impossible.

Plus, even if you convince the BC as to the low risk associated with your flying, he or she is probably smart enough to know that they'll get asked about it by some PowerPoint Ranger every time you fly or by a visiting General Officer and simply doesn't want to deal with it.


Chuck
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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2018, 03:42:15 PM »
You would be absolutely astounded at how many Base Commanders will not allow a simple Veterans Day Parade around the installation by the local Harley Owners Group (HOG) chapter. 

Often heard why not response:  " I do not want any Hell's Angles Idiots on my installation" ...... yep guilty by association....and most General Officers are not easily described as dumb, stupid, intolerant, or unpatriotic...but there it is for you to decide

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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2018, 05:27:40 PM »
   Well the latest I have read is that they have released the two people they arrested and they are not suspects any longer, and that they are pursuing several "persons of interest."  There is some doubt now of the validity of the second sightings. In this day and age of cameras everywhere I find it hard to believe that no one got them on camera, either still or video. They have recovered a 'crashed" drone and checking it for DNA.Stay tuned for further developments as they become available, film at 11!
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Offline Larry Fernandez

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2018, 06:16:36 PM »
944_Jim, I'd speculate that the CO there is just in "CYA" mode and figures you should find a place off-base to fly your toy airplane.

When I was a HS Sophomore, we lived at Edwards AFB...across the street from the General's house, and a few houses down from the Base CO's house. I taught the General's son to fly CL, and one day taught the General also. The Base CO had CL models in his garage and knew how to fly them. There is a small patch of Rosamond Dry Lake that the local R/C club flew on...I think my brother and I were the closest thing to Military personnel in the club and using it. It was still large enough that a guy lost his R/C model when it taxied out of sight.  Approaching 60 years ago, a different time.  :'( Steve

While stationed in San Diego in the late seventies, I spent a lot of time at the hobby shop at the Naval Training Center. The hobby shop had a section for building models of any sort. The shop included tables, and most tools for building. They even had a small paint booth for painting smaller models. The hobby shop was connected to the base bowling ally, so it gererated a lot of foot traffic. One night while working on a Midwest Magician, a gentleman stop in and struck up a lengthy conversation with me. He was excited to see the shop being put to good use and told me he flew control line years before. The gentleman turned out to be the Commanding Officer of the Naval Training Center. I still recall his name. Captian T.J. Porcari. I asked if there was any issue with me flying on the VERY large "marching grinder" adjacent to the hobby shop. He told me I could fly there anytime I wanted, except on Fridays, as there were parades for the graduating recruits.
I left a lot of divits in the asphalt.

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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #44 on: December 24, 2018, 01:55:11 AM »
While stationed in San Diego in the late seventies, I spent a lot of time at the hobby shop at the Naval Training Center. The hobby shop had a section for building models of any sort. The shop included tables, and most tools for building. They even had a small paint booth for painting smaller models. The hobby shop was connected to the base bowling ally, so it gererated a lot of foot traffic. One night while working on a Midwest Magician, a gentleman stop in and struck up a lengthy conversation with me. He was excited to see the shop being put to good use and told me he flew control line years before. The gentleman turned out to be the Commanding Officer of the Naval Training Center. I still recall his name. Captian T.J. Porcari. I asked if there was any issue with me flying on the VERY large "marching grinder" adjacent to the hobby shop. He told me I could fly there anytime I wanted, except on Fridays, as there were parades for the graduating recruits.
I left a lot of divits in the asphalt.




Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team


In the early 1960's Ft. Bragg North Carolina had a Hobby shop very much like the one you describe and we held Combat and Stunt contests on base!

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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Knucklehead with a drone causes Chaos at Gatwick Airport.
« Reply #45 on: December 30, 2018, 08:30:52 PM »
   Has everyone noticed that this has kind of dropped off the radar? They let the two people arrested for questioning go, and now there is a big question about the veracity of the original reports!! I questioned the original report where there were several descriptions, all different, and in this day and age of a camera in everyone's pocket and on every light pole, no pictures or video, and it supposedly happened in broad daylight? Sounds like someone over reacted? As for on this side of the pond, I have noticed the local Craig's List filling up with all sorts of drones for sale, a lot of the high dollar ones also. I have always thought that the worm would turn on this and maybe it has started. Time will tell.
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