Maneuver Placements

[Allan Perret]

Looking for info on maneuver placements relative to wind.  
I know this subject must have been written about before, would appreciate any references.

[Dave_Trible]

If we told ya we'd have to kill ya!  You really want secrets!  I'm sure there must be old SN articles on the subject-hopefully somebody can furnish that for you.  In reality that is about simply burning great quantities of fuel.  This can be a little different with each airplane and how much power you have.  You nuance that to knowledge of what your ship does in how much wind.  The trick for old guys sometimes is just to feel exactly where that wind is.  (We have secrets). The goal would be to shoot for dead down wind so the judges get the best look at your manuver.  If she winds up too much then a touch left for insides-a touch right for outsides and Hail Marys on the rest.  If in doubt...practice.

Dave

[Paul Taylor]

Allen,
I struggle with this as well. I will be watching.

[Derek Barry]

I fly directly down wind but that is just me. Many other people bias...

Derek

[steven yampolsky]

try this topic:

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=16949.0

I did a write up on wind flying techniques about 6-7 posts into the topic.

The post is pretty thorough. There was a difference of opinions on location of the launch point. While I still think my approach is valid, I suggest you read other opinions on the matter. It will give you a good insight into what figures into the decision of where a model should be placed.

[Larry Cunningham]

The trick is to keep the judges running.. They like that.

L.

"The impossible is often the untried." -Jim Goodwin

[Randy Powell]

Biasing single maneuvers generally works. Inside loops to one side, outsides to the other. The windier it is, the more you have to bias. Eights you are sort of stuck with dead, down wind and hold on.

[Allan Perret]

You really want secrets!  

In the words of Col. Nathan R. Jessep,
"You damned right I do"
 

[Allan Perret]

try this topic:

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=16949.0

I did a write up on wind flying techniques about 6-7 posts into the topic.

The post is pretty thorough. There was a difference of opinions on location of the launch point. While I still think my approach is valid, I suggest you read other opinions on the matter. It will give you a good insight into what figures into the decision of where a model should be placed.

Found your write up.  Great job, just what I was looking for.  Cut and pasted to Word doc, printed out to study and take to field.  Thanks   

[Brett Buck]

I fly directly down wind but that is just me. Many other people bias...

     You have flown mostly in the era of high-performance engines! Back in the days of the ST46, you put in biases or held on and hoped for the best. Coming downhill from the top of the round 8, I can recall many cases where I hung it in the down line right at the top, then hung it on the up line starting about the intersection, and then watched helplessly to see if it was going to hit the ground, come out at 5 feet, or come out at 20 feet. Shift it 15 degrees to the right, no problem.

    Brett

[PJ Rowland]

Brett makes a good point : What model / engine combination.

if its High Zoot - placement doesnt really matter aslong as its downwind - and well setup.

[Larry Renger]

As a frequent judge, if I can't see it it gets a lousy score.  Take that!  An off axis maneuver looks out of shape to me, and I judge it that way.  Off center round loops look elliptical, too narrow for the height.  The triangle looks really skewed.  Can't judge the intersections on the overheads.  Give both of us a break and fly exactly downwind.  I will do my level best to be exactly upwind.

 

[Derek Barry]

     You have flown mostly in the era of high-performance engines! Back in the days of the ST46, you put in biases or held on and hoped for the best. Coming downhill from the top of the round 8, I can recall many cases where I hung it in the down line right at the top, then hung it on the up line starting about the intersection, and then watched helplessly to see if it was going to hit the ground, come out at 5 feet, or come out at 20 feet. Shift it 15 degrees to the right, no problem.

    Brett

Fair enough, In my youth I probably did bias as that was the way I was taught. I guess it was later in life and with the development of stronger engines that I did start to creep to directly down wind. I have stated before, I was never very good at the bias, either I did it too much and the wind pushed me towards down wind causing my maneuvers to walk or I did it so little that it didn't help anyways.

Derek

[Randy Cuberly]

Bottom Line...
All other things equal...maneuvers flown directly down wind will likely score a little better.
If you have to bias to survive in very high wind its definitely best to do so!
However, a really good engine run and well trimmed airplane will fly just as good directly downwind as in biased condition.

One little trick I would mention is that in heavy wind it's best to hit the entry into the reverse wingover just a little before directly upwind.  This makes it easier to get a straight line over the top and of course does bias the pullout slightly into the wind (to your right) on the inverted portion.

Randy Cuberly

[Brett Buck]

Fair enough, In my youth I probably did bias as that was the way I was taught. I guess it was later in life and with the development of stronger engines that I did start to creep to directly down wind. I have stated before, I was never very good at the bias, either I did it too much and the wind pushed me towards down wind causing my maneuvers to walk or I did it so little that it didn't help anyways.

   The big danger with current airplanes/engines is overdoing it. With the typical Fox or ST46 airplane, in 15 mph wind (which is about all you could rely on handling, and not for the faint of heart), you might end up needing 30 degrees or so of bias for a round loop. Do that in the same conditions with a 40VF/Ro-Jett61/PA75 plane and when it gets to the bottom, it's about 25 feet off the ground and barely moving. It's the same problem that cause most of us so much trouble at the 2003 NATs - too much airspeed stability.

     Brett

[Derek Barry]

   The big danger with current airplanes/engines is overdoing it. With the typical Fox or ST46 airplane, in 15 mph wind (which is about all you could rely on handling, and not for the faint of heart), you might end up needing 30 degrees or so of bias for a round loop. Do that in the same conditions with a 40VF/Ro-Jett61/PA75 plane and when it gets to the bottom, it's about 25 feet off the ground and barely moving. It's the same problem that cause most of us so much trouble at the 2003 NATs - too much airspeed stability.

     Brett

I am glad I missed that one...

Derek

[Doug Moon]

I am glad I missed that one...

Derek

Yes, you are....you are very glad you missed that one.

[Garf]

Where you really have fun is in variable winds...............or NO wind at all.

[Brett Buck]

Where you really have fun is in variable winds...............or NO wind at all.

   Yes, I recall Doug enjoying the dead air on Top 20 day last year quite a bit.

     Brett

[RandySmith]

Bias ing your tricks can help you very much, but you should not use more than about 10 degrees (or a few feet)in either direction, and do move them in the correct direction, I see many pilots biasing in the wrong direction, which cause them a lot of trouble
The wingover, 8s, triangle, and hourglass should not be biased
Move them way out..25 to 40 degrees and you risk having walking ..or  moving maneuvers, or loosing line tension , neither is good!

Randy

[Doug Moon]

   Yes, I recall Doug enjoying the dead air on Top 20 day last year quite a bit.

     Brett

ARRRGGHHHH!      I had a decent start to that flight too.  It just simply fell out of the air.  But it was still my bad.  The air had been shifty all morning and it was very light during the start of my pattern.  I had been watching early and when the clouds were in front of the sun there was a light breeze, variable, but it was there.  As soon as the sun would break, DEAD air everywhere.  I recall I had some clouds at the start and then the sun started to poke through the clouds a bit.  Then it was fully exposed and the air died off during the approach to my outside squares.  I was trying to make the best entry and exit on loop one and I completely missed the fact it all died off.  I should have been stepping back during all single maneuvers of the flight knowing what was going on all morning long.  Then there would have been no questions or thoughts about it.  But I didnt and tried to stick #2 right on top of #1 and now I have a really short rudder and busted prop.  Stunt has a mean way of teaching me some of her lessons. 

[Allan Perret]

Bias ing your tricks can help you very much, but you should not use more than about 10 degrees (or a few feet)in either direction, and do move them in the correct direction, I see many pilots biasing in the wrong direction, which cause them a lot of trouble
Randy

OK, so what is the correct direction ?

[steven yampolsky]

Bias ing your tricks can help you very much, but you should not use more than about 10 degrees (or a few feet)in either direction, and do move them in the correct direction, I see many pilots biasing in the wrong direction, which cause them a lot of trouble
The wingover, 8s, triangle, and hourglass should not be biased
Move them way out..25 to 40 degrees and you risk having walking ..or  moving maneuvers, or loosing line tension , neither is good!

Randy

Randy is spot on! In stunt, there are not absolutes like (always fly dead downwind). Even with the modern design being lugged around with a big honking 75 on the nose, biasing in moderation(and Randy is spot on on the degree of moderation) will help you a lot.

I never bias more than 10 feet(or degrees) to either side and the amount of bias is directly proportional to the strength of the wind.

[steven yampolsky]

OK, so what is the correct direction ?

Allan,

Please read the post I made on the other thread. It explains in which direction to bias. I would also warn you from using bias as the only means of controlling the wind effects. There are other techniques to handling the wind besides bias such as whipping or extending/contracting the hand. Try learning them all and you will find that no one trick does the job but a combination of several. As with anything stunt: there are no absolutes except for hard ground and gale winds that come up just for your flight only.

[RandySmith]

OK, so what is the correct direction ?

Allan

Move the insides to your left, and the outsides to your right. make sure the triangle is dead downwind if blowing hard as well as the hourglass, and be very cautious not to turn the hourglass late , that can get you in real line tension problems

Randy

[Trostle]

OK, so what is the correct direction ?

The bias with respect to the wind depends on the maneuver and has been outlined here before.  Like Randy said certain maneuvers - wingover, triangles, horzontal eights, overhead eights, hourglass, four leaf clover - should not be biased.  In these, what might help with one turn will hinder in another if the maneuver is biased.  For me, it helps to bias the start of the vertical eight slightly to the right of dead down wind, but that is what works for me, maybe not for somebody else.  Really, there is no recipe book answer to what works best for you.  Some of the suggestions here might give a good place to start.  But what you as an individual flier need to do is to go out in the wind, fly the maneuvers in different locations with respect to the wind and in different wind conditions.  Find out what works best for you and then refine on that.  Then practice so that the location you start a maneuver, given the wind conditions, comes automatically without thinking about that position.

Keith

[Doug Moon]

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=26083.0

[Brett Buck]

ARRRGGHHHH!      I had a decent start to that flight too.  It just simply fell out of the air.  ...

Stunt has a mean way of teaching me some of her lessons. 

   It's happened to us all, my friend. I have crashed at the NATs *twice*, both times when everything else looked like it was going to be a pretty successful result otherwise. Actually, in one of those I still finished 10th in Open - by default.

    You build these things to win at the NATs. At a local contest you might fudge it a bit for safety but when it's Top 20 day, you just stick it where it belongs regardless of the risk.

    Brett

[PJ Rowland]

Never happened to me.....

Not lost a model out of the sky like that in 15 years..... I suspect Doug thinks hindsight is a wonderful thing after testing some VG's might have changed the outcome of the nats.....