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Author Topic: Setting up the maneuver  (Read 2578 times)

Offline Paul Taylor

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Setting up the maneuver
« on: April 09, 2012, 07:22:51 PM »
Can we start a thread for how you setup for the maneuvers?

I seem to have trouble placing the maneuvers correctly with the wind.

Using this template- the the vertical post representing down wind how do you setup for each maneuver?
Save off the template and edit, then save back to this thread.

First JPG is the template.
Second jpg is my guess at insides loops.

Let the learning began.
Paul
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Offline Randy Ryan

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Re: Setting up the maneuver
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2012, 11:09:47 PM »
IKnteresting Paul, I'll watch this one.
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Offline Brian Massey

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Re: Setting up the maneuver
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2012, 08:34:37 AM »
I think I read here on the forums that in windy conditions you bias loops into the wind to help reduce wind-up. So on an inside loop, the downward part (ending) of the loop would be on the upright bar. On the outside loop the bar would also be the down side, but in this cast the beginning of the loop.

Someone feel free to jump in here and correct me if I've got it wrong.

Thanks,

Brian
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Setting up the maneuver
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2012, 09:37:10 AM »
I fly every maneuver directly down wind. That is just me though. A well trimmed plane with the correct engine/prop setup will not wind up too much. It is a handfull in high wind but i have found that if you bias, the wind will always try to push your plane back to down wind. This will cause the maneuvers to walk.

Just my .02

Derek

Offline Trostle

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Re: Setting up the maneuver
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2012, 10:55:17 AM »
When you have the opportunity to judge the better fliers, you will see the different ways they bias maneuvers in the wind.  Some of the better fliers do not bias their maneuver.  But in my experience, most of the better fliers do bias their maneuvers by varying degrees. 

For me, I flew flight after flight just doing inside and outside loops and square loops, locating the center axis of these loops in different positions relative to the wind.  Then do the same thing with all of the other maneuvers.  For me, I found it best to bias inside loops, to the left of the wind (opposite of Paul's diagram at the beginning of this thread) and for the outsides, I bias to the right of the wind.  For the horizontal eights (the round ones and the squares, it works best for me to place the intersections as close as I can dead down wind.  I place the triangles centered on the wind.  The vertical eights, I bias slightly to the right of the wind.  The hour glass is centered on the wind, the overhead eights are centered on the wind so that the intersections above my head are dead downwind.  And the four leaf clover is centered on the wind - in other words, the vertical intersections are dead down wind.  This is what works for me.  The degree of bias sort of depends on the wind, but this has been worked out, for me by flying a few patterns over the years.

It is interesting, we have a flier here in Tucson that came out just a few years ago.  He quickly went from Intermediate to Advanced.  He did not really stagnate, but his rate of development slowed somewhat.  When several of us suggested he bias the maneuvers, it was like a new revaluation.  He went out and experimented with placing his maneuvers in different positions relative to the wind.  In short time, he continued his progress and is now getting competitive in Expert here in Southern Arizona.

You just have to go out and find what works best for you and understand what works for one flier may not be the best way for you.

Keith

Offline Shultzie

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Re: Setting up the maneuver
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2012, 11:08:34 AM »
Waaaaaaaaaaaay back in the early 60's so many of us...were flying the old school "Noblers and modified Gobblers" patterns in high wind situations..with "slobbering rich" Kan'nBeans 35's McCoycoys' Oh so-so Max 35'z n FOXY 35Momma's ... Bob Gieseke  engine settings, which at least for most of us....
these engines DEMANDED that we place our multi inside loops slight up wind...which would then allow the engine to break momentarily break into a lean 2 cycle setting at the beginning of the inside loops...n' all that jazz.
(Higher the wind became...the more we would move that inside loop up wind...and then on the outside loops...just the opposite?)

Although doing this...for the true pattern judge peeeUust' most of us would risk a lower score (due to pattern placement) than to make those ugly egg shaped HIGHLY SPEEDED UP OUT OF CONTROL LOOPS!! ~^
ALL THIS CHANGED ...AT LEAST FOR MANY OF US...AT THE 1968 OLATHA NATIONALS...This young skinny kid..Robert Baron took that teenie little .19 powered high speed engine with that low pitched prop of his...AND GAVE ALL OF US A BRAND NEW HIGH WIND FLYNG LESSON with that little HUMMMMBUG of an airplane...(that by first appearance's...belonged over  at the COMBAT FIELD just to the SE of the Stunt circles.
Don Shultz

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Setting up the maneuver
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2012, 11:12:22 AM »

For me, I flew flight after flight just doing inside and outside loops and square loops, locating the center axis of these loops in different positions relative to the wind.  Then do the same thing with all of the other maneuvers.  For me, I found it best to bias inside loops, to the left of the wind (opposite of Paul's diagram at the beginning of this thread) and for the outsides, I bias to the right of the wind.  

You just have to go out and find what works best for you and understand what works for one flier may not be the best way for you.

Keith

I agree with Keith here, IF you are going to bias this is the only way to do it. If you do the opposite you will find, the wind will speed the plane up on the down leg and that is not what you want at all. The way Keith recommends will help push the plane over the top of the maneuver and slow it down on the down leg as you come back into the wind.

I also agree with his last statement. For me, I either biased too much or not enough to matter so I just stay down wind. But it may not work for everyone.

Derek

Offline Shultzie

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Re: Setting up the maneuver
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2012, 11:50:41 AM »
PLACING INSIDE LOOPS..just the opposites of down wind also has some advantages but also some alarming advangtages..
FOR EXAMPLE!
HIGH WINDS..ESPECIALLY GUSTY WINDS, placement of loops etc..is  a personal preference when it comes to flying wind varibles.
I would rather have some USEABLE flying speed on the BOTTOM down wind side..which should hopefully allow  ENOUGH FORWARD PENETRATION  speed to not only control the "egg shape syndrome" but also keeps those longer  length  DRAG HUNGRY heavy chained .018 lines LINE DRAPE-N-DRAG..from SLOWING DOWN THE SPEED OF THE MODEL WHICH KEEPS THE MODEL FLYING ATTITUDE AND FORWARD DIRECTION OF FLIGHT... AT THE MOST DEMANDING SPOT OF THE LOOPS..JUST 5 FEET AWAY FROM THE TARMAC..THAT WOULD JUST LOVE TO SLAM THAT MODEL INTO A MILLION LITTLE PIECES OF BALSA FLACK... over the aerodynamics effects of the wing stab, n elevators...

FACT! YES ...HIGH WIND N' CLPA MODEL SPEED CAN KILL!!!
FACT! YES..BUT AT TIMES.. THIS SPEED OF THE MODEL CAN  PROVE TO BE YOUR ONLY FRIEND...
Don Shultz

Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Setting up the maneuver
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2012, 05:34:34 PM »
So if I interpolate Keith's post here is what it looks like.

Now if I can just find the wind on the back of my neck.
Paul
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Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Setting up the maneuver
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2012, 05:44:37 PM »
Hoz 8s is not correct..
Paul
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Setting up the maneuver
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2012, 06:21:18 PM »
A number of years back I wrote a series of articles that addressed these questions in depth for my Model Aviation stunt columns.  I believe they were called "Fly Like a Champion" or something like that.  If anyone keeps back issues they might be able to scan and post them in this thread.  Talked a lot about wind and other factors.  Lot of work went into it but I wasn't smart enough to keep "floppies" of stuff I wrote back then.  I believe they were written in the mid 1990's.

Ted Fancher

Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Setting up the maneuver
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2012, 06:36:19 PM »
Wow Ted. That would be great if we could get someone to post that kind of information.

That makes me wonder what other great information is sitting with dust on it.
Paul
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Setting up the maneuver
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2012, 07:40:07 PM »
I believe that the majority of this information is available on the AMA website in the archives, all the back issues up to a certain year are posted there,,
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Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Setting up the maneuver
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2012, 11:57:29 PM »
A number of years back I wrote a series of articles that addressed these questions in depth for my Model Aviation stunt columns.  I believe they were called "Fly Like a Champion" or something like that.  If anyone keeps back issues they might be able to scan and post them in this thread.  Talked a lot about wind and other factors.  Lot of work went into it but I wasn't smart enough to keep "floppies" of stuff I wrote back then.  I believe they were written in the mid 1990's.

Ted Fancher

Was it called, "so you want to win huh?"  I have those three.  Its been a long time since I read it and cant remember anything about biasing.

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Offline Trostle

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Re: Setting up the maneuver
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2012, 12:01:25 AM »
A number of years back I wrote a series of articles that addressed these questions in depth for my Model Aviation stunt columns.  I believe they were called "Fly Like a Champion" or something like that.  If anyone keeps back issues they might be able to scan and post them in this thread.  Talked a lot about wind and other factors.  Lot of work went into it but I wasn't smart enough to keep "floppies" of stuff I wrote back then.  I believe they were written in the mid 1990's.

Ted Fancher

Hi Ted,

For those fairly new to this, Ted wrote the Stunt Column in Model Aviation from My 1984 to February 1990.  I have a copy of all of Ted's material, columns and articles in my library, right up there with may prised leather-bound two-volume set, autographed by Ted, titled How to Design a Profile Fuselage.

I think the series Ted mentioned above was in three parts, June through August 1986.  The title he used was "fly Lik a Champion.  In the first of these, Ted talked about preparedness, personal style and flying the pattern in general.  The next two months, Ted gives us a two-for-one tutorial on flying each maneuver and how to place each manuever with respect to the wind.

Hope thise come through OK.  I got an update on my computer prograoms and have not learned yet how to compress these thing for this forum.

Keith

Well, I just found out that I cannot post these.  From the July and August issues where he talks about the wind, there are 6 pages of material, each too large.  I will work on this.


Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Setting up the maneuver
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2012, 09:06:35 AM »
Thank Keith !
One good thing about the Internet once the information is posted the data is saved.
Paul
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Setting up the maneuver
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2012, 09:15:03 AM »
Keith,
you may try scanning them as a "pdf" then posting. It will not show a preview on the thread but you can download it for review. Pdf files tend to be more compact than jpg ( picture) files by definition. Most scanners can scan directly to a pdf file. I typcially scan documents into pdf at 150 dpi and it makes a very reasonable size file that is still readable,,
If I can help let me know please,,
PS I totally understand the "new computer" syndrome, man why they gotta change stuff,,,,
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Setting up the maneuver
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2012, 09:58:44 AM »
Not sure if this belongs in this thread but what the heck.. I try to find some fixed object outside the circle that coresponds to directly down wind. This gives me a point to fly to for my intersections and gives me a reference for biasing if I feel a need to. It also makes it easier for the judges to see missed intersections :)

If the wind is really blowing (over 15) I do try to bias per your last diagrams but usually I'm just trying to get through the pattern and surviving the flight.

Offline RogerGreene

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Re: Setting up the maneuver
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2012, 10:06:08 AM »
All,

Go to AMA Members only Archives and search for "Control Line Aerobatics" in 1986 use all fields. This will get you started to see the articles.

Roger
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Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Setting up the maneuver
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2012, 09:13:22 PM »
Thanks Roger. Found it!!!
Good stuff.
Paul
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