News:



  • June 08, 2024, 07:19:25 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Is it really all about weight??  (Read 3144 times)

Offline Wynn Robins

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1684
Is it really all about weight??
« on: August 13, 2007, 02:51:54 PM »
After an evening with a fellow modeller discussing the merits of certain building techniques, we got onto the subject of structural rigidity and its importance.

Seems that the guy I was talking to has been thinking about this for some time, now let me tell you, he is o slouch when it comes to airplanes - he has competed in World champs in free flight, and has been into modelling for more years than I have been alive (yes Phil, this is you)

Anyway, during discussions, the subject arose on how important the engine run is - basically we got to - the engine run is THE most important thing and that the airframe is really there to point the motor in the right direction.

The interesting part that arose, was really that the airframe should be as rigid as possible, and all aspects should be tied into the engine bearing area to difuse any and all vibration through the airframe.

So - is the rigidity the most important thing here?  it makes a lot of sense - so if I build a rigid airplane to hold the powerplant to make sure I get it 100% right and the plane is a little heavier - is this better then having a light airplane that vibrates and has variable engine runs???

In the battle of airplane versus ground, the ground is yet to lose

Offline rustler

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 719
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2007, 03:22:29 PM »
I always try to build this way, i.e. as rigid engine mounting as reasonably possible. And then pray that all the good work is not undone by finding I've built something that just hits the harmonic frequency!
Ian Russell.
[I can remember the schedule o.k., the problem is remembering what was the last manoeuvre I just flew!].

Offline Randy Cuberly

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3674
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2007, 03:36:25 PM »
Wynn,
Interesting question?  A couple of years ago I probably would have agreed that rigidity or stiffness, especially in the engine mount area was tanta mount to a good engine run.  Now I'm not so sure.
Certainly an engine that shakes around is going to produce some strange mechanics that may interfere with normal operation.  Logical....yes, just try to get a good engine run on a profile with a winpy nose section.
However a couple of years ago I built an airplane (Geo XL) that was very light (53 oz with 730 Sq in).  I constructed an extremely rigid fuselage using a carbon fibre crutch and boron stiffners (some boron fibers left over from 80's free flight times).  The engine runs were very inconsistent and difficult to deal with.  The same engine in another airframe worked perfectly.  Different tanks etc, etc, all to no avail.
Others (David Fitzgerald, I think, but could be wrong, memory says that there was a thread about this on Stuka Stunt about a year or so ago) have reported similar problems using very stiff carbon engine mounting systems.
My guess (and it's only a guess) is that the extreme stiffness creates a resonance (higher frequency) that excites something in the engine mechanics.  Remember I said this was a guess and I'm not prepared to defend this hypothesis in an open argument.  I simply don't have any other explanation.
This is not intended to be an agrument against airframe rigidity or it's merits structurally and aerodynamically but does pose some questions about it's relationship to engine mechanics and reliability.

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline John Miller

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1697
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2007, 03:52:06 PM »
Great discussion starting here.

I so agree that the engine run is extremely important. It makes everything else easier to accomplish, but we can't sacrifice gaining rigidity for excess weight.

A lot can be done to help make a heavy plane fly better. Flap area, throws etc. On the other hand, combine a great engine run with good alignment, and a decent wing loading, and a plane is easier to trim, and fly well.

Adequate rigidity, just enough, can be achieved by good engineering practises, but to many, I fear, approach the problem with the 800 pound Gorilla approach. This can really add up the weight, and make the plane a porker.

Rigidity in the form we need it, might not mean a totally unmovable, in any way, structure. It might mean enough strength to maintain alignment,(which is what we really are trying to maintain.)

Your last question would have to be answered YES, with the following caveate. Watch the way you add strength. Use good engineering practises to avoid unnecessary weight build up. everything is so dependent on other factors.

I've seen good kits turned into toads by the builder adding strength to help avoid damage from a crash. Almost guarantees it will crash.
Getting a line on life. AMA 1601

Offline Randy Powell

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 10478
  • TreeTop Flyer
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2007, 05:11:43 PM »
I've said this before: weight is important. But it's not the only thing to think about. It's a case of matching the lift potential of the airframe to an acceptable weight envelope. If the plane's wing doesn't provide much lift due to say, airfoil, flap configuration or a number of other elements, then it can't weigh much or the wing won't be able to carry the payload adequately and that's when you get stalls in corners and the thing is falling out of the air at the most inconvenient times. If the lift potential of the wing is really big, then it can (and in some cases probably should) carry more payload.

Obviously, you can overpower the problem to an extent if it's close. If the plane is just a bit past the optimum (or even maximum) wingload for the configuration, you can use more horsepower to pull it through. It will probably never be a great plane, but you can sort of overpower it into one you can get away with.

Every design has an optimum weight. A lot lighter than the optimum, and you create problems with control response and will need to dial out a lot of control moments (among other issues). Too heavy and you go past the airframe's ability to carry the payload and you get all those wonderful problems associated with toads. Certainly control response is compromised and the stall speed goes up, sometimes dramatically.

Some designs, that optimum weight range is pretty narrow. But for most designs, and certainly most of the more famous designs, it's fairly wide. For instances, I'm told that the ideal weight for an Impact is 60-62 oz. Build it straight, at that weight and any one of a number of engines can power it successfully. I've seen Paul power one with everything from a OS40VF to and ST60 to a Big Bore PA to a 4 Strokes to now the equivalent of a 90. All flew the plane very well. But it's balancing the lift potential and design to the optimum weight is what makes a great flying plane. As long at the power delivery is consistent, the engine provides enough power to fly the plane well and is of the sort of run you plan to use (and you've trimmed for), I think the power is a secondary issue. But those are big ifs. I've certainly spent enough time trying to get all those ducks flying in formation.

Point of all this is, it's not one thing. I don't think you can make a statement like "lighter is always better" for instance (though many do). It's true that lighter is usually better, but if you have a really light plane that folds up in the first hard corner, or it isn't straight or what ever, it's still a toad. And when you drop off the bottom of the weight envelope, you start to have problems.

Just my view on it. I'm sure others will have different opinions. Certainly Sparky and I have argued this a time or two. But hey, that's what makes this fun.
Member in good standing of P.I.S.T
(Politically Incorrect Stunt Team)
AMA 67711
 Randy Powell

Online RC Storick

  • Forum owner
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12421
  • The finish starts with the first piece of wood cut
    • Stunt Hangar
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2007, 05:17:10 PM »
Anything that is LIGHT-STRAIGHT and rigid will fly better than heavy-crooked and flimsy.. The most important things in order are STRAIGHT-RIGID AND LIGHT!
AMA 12366

Offline proparc

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2391
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2007, 05:52:41 PM »
"Strong Straight and Lite Makes Perfect Flight"
Joe Bridi-The designer of the Kaos
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Jim Morris

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 237
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2007, 05:59:17 PM »
I believe the engine crutch should be very rigid, You can still make it light (enough) but keep it conservative,don't get radical on trying to keep the front light. If the front is too light you have to add nose weight instead of tail wight. It take allot more nose weight to balance than it does tail weight. And a bad engine run will ruin a potentially good flying ship.

Offline Wynn Robins

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1684
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2007, 06:54:19 PM »
guys, glad this got some coversation going -

Other aspects of interest that I am looking for clarifiaction on - are "weak points" is design -

by this I mean - are there "breaks" in the construction that will limit the vibration/movement etc to be confined to one area  - lets take the Vector 40 for example- (now this is a great airplae to fly, I have 3 currently and intend to build another 6 or so ) so please dont think I am bagging it is any way.

if you look at the plan - where the doublers stop, and the longerons start at the rear, there is a "break" in materials - by this I mean there is a glue joint between the two different assemblies - and this is also apparent at the cockpit where the front top block ends, and the rear top block starts.

Would it not be beneficial to carry to top block continually from nose to tail on this particular airplane?  reason being that any vibration from the nose,can be transmitted down the entire length of the airframe and not be limited to the section just forward of the wing......

I believe building light straight and stiff is a good way to go - just looking on improvements or variations to my "one design" scheme ......yes, I am solely building vector 40s at the moment

In the battle of airplane versus ground, the ground is yet to lose

Offline Randy Powell

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 10478
  • TreeTop Flyer
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2007, 07:02:32 PM »
>>Anything that is LIGHT-STRAIGHT and rigid will fly better than heavy-crooked and flimsy.<<

Well, I can certainly go with that. See, Sparky and I agree, too.   %^@
Member in good standing of P.I.S.T
(Politically Incorrect Stunt Team)
AMA 67711
 Randy Powell

Offline Bradley Walker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1192
    • The Urban Rifleman
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2007, 07:09:24 PM »
And a bad engine run will ruin a potentially good flying ship.

I have seen a good engine run make a turd airplane into a package that can win.

I have never seen the reverse.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Online RC Storick

  • Forum owner
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12421
  • The finish starts with the first piece of wood cut
    • Stunt Hangar
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2007, 07:39:48 PM »
I have never seen the reverse.

Wrong answer! Any plane from yesteryear with a fox .35 was certainly under powered
AMA 12366

Offline Larry Renger

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4002
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2007, 08:19:05 PM »
Resonance comes from rigidity and springiness.  What you want is firm mounting that is well dampened to vibration.  That is, the engine can not move on its mounts, but the vibration energy has to be channeled someplace harmless. Two stroke, single piston engines vibrate...period.  The best ones distribute the vibration in all directions rather than one, but still, without heroic measures, they can NOT be perfectly balanced.  So, you gotta suck that vibration power up somewhere, or it will show up where you don't want it (can you say fuel foaming?)

There have been threads about engine crutches machined from solid Maple that sucked bigtime.  Balsa absorbs and dampens vibration.  The key is to put it the right place.  The best engine crutches seem to be ones with the tank area filled with a cross-grain Balsa block between the engine bearers.  There may be even better foam materials that could be used. My guess is that long engine bearers that taper, with a balsa filler block will suck up the best portion of the vibration.  Carrying the bearers way back will certainly help load the vibration into the entire structure, which is a huge, well dampened balsa assembly.   The taper would help distribute the vibration evenly rather than loading it into the structure at one point, asking for fatigue cracking.

Tapered bearers with matching taper on the balsa block is a pain to do, so the easy trick is to drill a sequence of ever larger holes in the bearers!  Saves weight and gives you the tapering hardness you need.

I suspect that carrying the engine crutch back to the wing is for the benefit of good structural strength at the wing/fuselage interface in flight loads, not dampening engine vibration, but considering the frequency of wing root cracking, especially on profile models, I could be way off base on this one.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Online RC Storick

  • Forum owner
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12421
  • The finish starts with the first piece of wood cut
    • Stunt Hangar
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2007, 08:50:09 PM »
The tbolt motor-mounts are suspended with just 1/16 sheet balsa between the mounts and fuse sides. The F1 and F2 are 1/8 lite ply. So the engine bearers are basically hanging in mid air.. Works good.. Thanks Billy
AMA 12366

Offline Wynn Robins

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1684
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2007, 09:14:49 PM »
Larry - right on the money as to what I am looking for here  - even on full fuse planes - including the vector, there appears to be a "weak spot" on the fuse just aboe the TE - this is where both the top blocks meet and the doublers end
In the battle of airplane versus ground, the ground is yet to lose

Offline Wynn Robins

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1684
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2007, 09:16:36 PM »
Sparky - do you have pics of this???  sounds interesting
In the battle of airplane versus ground, the ground is yet to lose

Offline Randy Powell

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 10478
  • TreeTop Flyer
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2007, 10:37:45 PM »
>>I have seen a good engine run make a turd airplane into a package that can win.<<

I guess it would depend on the competition.
Member in good standing of P.I.S.T
(Politically Incorrect Stunt Team)
AMA 67711
 Randy Powell

Offline Mark Scarborough

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5918
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2007, 11:17:16 PM »
IMHO, the only way a good engine run could turn a turd into a good airplane is if it were a good airplane to start with that was having bad engine runs. a bad airplane is a bad airplane good engine run or not. Getting a good engine run on a bad airplane can make it better, but it is only ONE part of the equation, that being aerodynamics package, engine package suited to aero package, prop suited to aero pack. and engine package, and a pilot capbable of putting it together and trimming it properly, and then being able to fly it. No I cant see an engine run fixing an inherantly bad airplane.
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Offline L0U CRANE

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2007, 05:11:24 PM »
Wynn,

You kicked off a great discussion! Thanks!

Modern engines seem to produce less vibration than 'classic' iron and steel types, and that is a big factor. Aluminum pistons are lighter than iron. Today's engines - that I've looked inside of, anyway, also have more massive crankshafts, crankdisks, and bearing meat than the oldies. Some flywheel effect on damping vibration, and better support both help.

The comments on keeping things plausible are worth thinking about.  Rigidity, alone, is not necessarily the best answer. I seem to recall reading that the development of Paul Walker's B-17 included, at one point, EXTREMELY rigid space-age technology engine mounts, which didn't work out...

A good compromise much discussed seems to be to use enough material that can dampen most vibes, without adding unnecessary eight. Remember, heavier objects have more momentum when they crash, too. Careful, structurally sound, design of pieces - and of course, excellent technique in putting them together - should be able to do the job.

Lapped, and overlapped, piece ends distribute the stress, if done right, so that the local points of application are not overloaded.
\BEST\LOU

Offline Randy Powell

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 10478
  • TreeTop Flyer
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2007, 06:31:07 PM »
>>without adding unnecessary eight.<<

By all means, keep those extra eights out of there.   LL~
Member in good standing of P.I.S.T
(Politically Incorrect Stunt Team)
AMA 67711
 Randy Powell

Offline Wynn Robins

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1684
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2007, 08:09:45 PM »
guys - I guess I got the wording wrong - I am looking at ways of transferring vibration via dampening methods - away from pressure points  - I understand that very rigid structure is not good as mentioned a few times above -

I will do some "improvements" on the next vector and report back any differences in flight - as I said - I have a few at the moment - so comparing flight to flight will be interesting

In the battle of airplane versus ground, the ground is yet to lose

Offline Bill Little

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
  • Second in COMMAND
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2007, 07:35:38 AM »
From what I have seen in "World Class" airplanes is that there are several ways to get good engine runs.  And that a LOT of it comes from what engine you plan on running!  Big Jim/Windy's nose assembly was the best I have witnessed for the ST 60.  Randy's nose works (and has for years) best for the modern "smooth" running PAs and such.  On the surface, these are completely different!  Ply doublers vs. balsa/CF veil doublers............  Yet, they both work great (best I've seen) for their purposes.  Even Randy's nose works with the ST 60 (Bill Rich!). 

I *think* (no empirical evidence on my part) that filling between the motor mounts is a great help in absorbing vibration.  Tying the motor mounts to the wing is another great help.  These two I try to use (cross fill always!) in every application.

Then we get to the "boxed in" fronts of Mr. Rabe, and Billy's P-47 (among others).  These systems work great.

I guess what I am saying is, I will not try to reinvent the wheel (as some do!) when it comes to this part of the construction phase.  There are plenty of top level guys who have already done the "experimental" work for me!  I cannot afford to spend weeks/months on building a plane only to never get a good engine run.

As to weight, I will admit to belonging to the Billy Werwage/Bob Hunt theory of "lightness", but not at the expense of the necessary strength.  There is a "design weight" envelope that each plane will fly best at.
Big Bear <><

Aberdeen, NC

James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline Leo Mehl

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1951
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2007, 09:02:56 PM »
When I was building in the 60's we tried dampening the engine run by using balsa doublers and tieing everything to the wing. In the ninetys I added another element to my building. Of course I quit building and flying for 28 years before I got into this again.
  My grinder is built this way with balsa doublers and now I geodedic the complete rear section of the plane to stop any flexing of the frame. This is done with small sticks. this makes plane very strong without having any hardwood in it that will set up a harmonic sound. I remember a friend putting in Oak motor bearers in his plane and it set up a harmonic vibration that wouln't stop.
  The other thing that I feel is most important for a good engine run on top of everything else is the tank setup. and where you run the uniflow tube on your plane.
  If all this plus building your plane as strait as you can you will have a plane that will be a great flyer.These are all importnt factors and when done correctly will yield really good rewards.

Offline Randy Powell

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 10478
  • TreeTop Flyer
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2007, 11:11:24 PM »
Sorry, Wynn, it just struck me as funny at the time.  HB~>
Member in good standing of P.I.S.T
(Politically Incorrect Stunt Team)
AMA 67711
 Randy Powell

Offline Wynn Robins

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1684
Re: Is it really all about weight??
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2007, 04:44:45 PM »
Randy - it was funny - dont worry - I had a chuckle
In the battle of airplane versus ground, the ground is yet to lose


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here