Ignition engine for old time stunt

[Dave Nyce]

Looking for suggestions on size and model of an ignition engine to be mounted onto a Ringmaster S-1 for old time stunt.
Thanks

[Dan McEntee]

  I have not seen this done but you will need more engine than you think. My suggestion is the Madewell .49.  I built a flew a Yates Dragon that was designed around the Madewell, but powered it with a Fox .35. Drop Jim Lee a line for some suggestions, or Bob Zambelli.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[James Lee]

Dave
The Madewell 49 has plenty of grunt!  It hauled my Humongous for many years as the aching ears of many spectators can attest to....  And it is not too heavy.   BUT, you gotta figure the ignition system also.   Even with a transistor system, the coil and battery pack are going to add weight.   
Maybe a Forster 35 sparker with the lightest coil you can find and a minimum battery pack.
Gonna be tight, cause the Ringmaster won't carry tooo much extra weight.
Have fun!!

Later
Jim

[FLOYD CARTER]

The Ringmaster S-1 has gained success in OTS over the years.  The lightest ones fly the best.  Putting spark in a Ringmaster is going the wrong way.   The most successful planes for the OTS ignition event would have an engine of at least .49 cuin displacement, and the model should have at least 550 sq,in, wing area to carry the extra weight. 

As for engines, I would look at the Madewell .49, the Atwood Triumph .49 or ,51.  Of course, the ultimate OTS engine would be Orwick .64 or the Anderson Spitfire .65  (which would permit a larger airframe)

Why not ask this same question in the Old Time column for more opinions....

[Robert Zambelli]

See if you can find an Orwick 29, spark version.
I have one on a Ringmaster size plane (Shaper) and it has plenty of power.

Bob Z.

[Dave Nyce]

Thanks for the info, everyone!

[FLOYD CARTER]

I agree that the Orwick 29 has the power of a much larger engine!  However, when they first appeared in 1949 they didn't sell well because of high price.  Soon, Henry Orwick started selling them as glo engines.  But sales were still sluggish. 

Therefore, these engines are pretty scarce, and the ignition version even more so.

Here is the Orwick 29 in a Junior Madman 39" OR 40" wingspan)

[Tim Wescott]

Try an O&R .23.

That might power a Ringmaster on short lines, but I'm not sure you'd get many stunts out of it.

Whatever you choose, remember that the ignition-era planes almost all had full fuselages so you'd have a place to stash all the stuff.  I know of one profile OT ignition design, but it had this huge fat wing to house the equipment.  You could probably pull it off with an S-1, but the entire right side of the nose would be the ignition setup.

[Jim Kraft]

   I flew a Yates Dragon for a while with a Forster 29 rear valve that did very well. It was a very strong runner. The only problem was choking the engine. I did replace the long intake for a short one from a front valve, but it was still difficult to choke it.

Don Hutchinson flew a Yates Dragon with a Torpedo 29 for a while. It also flew well. It can be done, but light is right when adding ignition stuff. I do like the larger planes for ignition. And the best engines are in order, the Orwick 64, Anderson Spitfire, Super Cyclone, and the Atwood Super Champion. Having said that, I have a Box Car Chief with only a 42" wing that fly's well with a Super Cyclone. The Cyclone is fairly light for a 60 but is a good runner and easy to adjust. I run either a 12-7 or 11-8 wood prop. I usually run 13-6 props on the other engines.

[John Rist]

Did the any of the early Ringmasters ever have Ignition engines?  I flew my first one in 1953.  It was powered by a FOX 35.  Just wondering      

[Brett Buck]

Did the any of the early Ringmasters ever have Ignition engines?  I flew my first one in 1953.  It was powered by a FOX 35.  Just wondering      

   Not as designed - while I am sure that someone tried it, for all the reasons delineated above, it's a bad idea. These really simple profile models were made possible by cheap and light glow engines.

   Brett

[Tim Wescott]

A Ringmaster with a Drone Diesel on it -- now that might be nice, if a bit anachronistic.

[Dennis Toth]

The Ringmaster can't handle the Drone Diesel, it is 10 1/2oz. Now, ok it will only need 1 3/4 oz of fuel, but a PAW 15 diesel will pull it just fine and it is only 4 1/2oz. The Drone needs a ship like the CHIEF as it uses an 11x10 prop and is one rpm (~5800), the ships of the time for Drone's were too small at roughly 40" spans. It pulls a Guided Whistle (52" span) at 4.8 lap time on 60' C to C lines. It is tough to fit all the ignitions stuff on a Ringmaster even if you can get a light engine, still needs to carry an extra 3oz for coil, switch, ignition module and battery. Again, ignition ships tend to be larger to handle the extra weight.

Best,   DennisT

[Jim Kraft]

   Those who do not remember, or were to young, in about 1945, most just flew their planes. Stunt was not thought of much then. My folks use to take us kids on picnics to Swope Park in KC on Sunday afternoon where we could watch the guys flying control line. Many of the planes were small with large engines and the most they did was shallow climbs and back to level flight. Some of the early ones were free flights converted to control line. The Jim Walker Fireball was real popular back then. They were mostly powered with Ohlsson 23 side port engines.

The ignition era pretty much died after the glow plug came out, and many ignition engines had their timers removed and converted to glow.

I watched many flights at the park and I do not remember anyone doing a loop or flying inverted until at least late 46. Most were happy just to take off and fly and land.

I believe stunt started on the west coast earlier than the rest of the country. At least that is how I remember it. The earliest stunts were inside loops, outside loops, inverted flying and wing overs which makes up most of the stunt pattern today.

Earl Cayton designed the Tethered Trainer in 44. It had a flat bottom wing and most were flown with side port Ohlsson 23's, but they were also flown with Super Cylones and probably other 60 size enigines. The Forster 29 was also popular but do not think it came out till later.

That is how I remember the ignition era. I was born at a very early age.

[dale gleason]

Hi Jim.
I vaguely remember being born at an early age, just like you! Small world.

dale g

[Douglas Babb]

As far as weight of components, I use a battery pack from a cordless phone for power, it's 3 cell NiCad pencell size. Current tendency is towards a single cell LiPo of sufficient capacity to run as long as necessary. Larry Davidson has coils that seem to be a bit lighter than the Aero brand so you might save an ounce or two but the RM was designed with a glow in mind, my plans for a Super Duper Zilch show an ignition Anderson or the like but it's a bigger airframe. The models I have with ignition are SAM but the components will go in anything.