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Author Topic: how much of the battery gets used in a 6 minute run?  (Read 3162 times)

Offline frank carlisle

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how much of the battery gets used in a 6 minute run?
« on: March 08, 2006, 07:04:57 AM »

i am using an axi 2826/10 and a PQ 3700 mAH battery. i fly one 6 minute flight then recharge the battery. could i get two 6 minute flights off the same battery? without harming the battery?
Frank Carlisle

Offline phil c

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Re: how much of the battery gets used in a 6 minute run?
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2006, 11:08:16 AM »
measure the amount of power remaining in the battery after a 6 min. flight.  Run it at your normal amps draw and see how many minutes it lasts.  From what everybody's told me though, trying to use every last milliamp in a LiPoly is a surefire way to kill it quickly.  The least little imbalance between cells and one of them will see significant reverse current before the motor quits.  Much cheaper in the long run to get a second or third battery and do the charge one/fly one routine.
phil Cartier

Offline RandySmith

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Re: how much of the battery gets used in a 6 minute run?
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2006, 02:49:07 PM »
i am using an axi 2826/10 and a PQ 3700 mAH battery. i fly one 6 minute flight then recharge the battery. could i get two 6 minute flights off the same battery? without harming the battery?

HI Frank

It sounds like you are in danger of seriously hurting the battery pack, this can result in a flame venting of the pack when recharging it. You never  want to discharge li pos  down that much, It would be  very wise to do as  Phil suggested  and  find out exactly  how much your  using.
And  NO please  do not  try  2 flights on the pack before  recharge

Regards
Randy

Offline RickS

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Re: how much of the battery gets used in a 6 minute run?
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2006, 04:14:34 PM »
Frank,
  Please give me a call, I will be more than happy to assist you in answering your question... I also have all the equipment you need for the measurements...Rick Sawicki
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Offline frank carlisle

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Re: how much of the battery gets used in a 6 minute run?
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2006, 07:26:21 PM »

i've only put one run on each of the two batteries i have before recharging. so i haven't done any harm to them. and based on the responses here i'll continue to make that my policy.
thanks very much fellows
Frank Carlisle

Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: how much of the battery gets used in a 6 minute run?
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2006, 08:05:42 PM »
Hi Frank,
That's a good policy. Please tell us what your charger says it put back into the battery, after flying it for a full 6 minutes after a full charge.
Dean Pappas
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Offline frank carlisle

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Re: how much of the battery gets used in a 6 minute run?
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2006, 08:27:50 AM »
we have stormy weather for the next few days. i'll give that info just as soon as i get to fly the plane again.

ithink the last time i charged the bats the read out on the multiplex charger was:

3.0479 amps------11.04something volts.

i'll make notes next time.
Frank Carlisle

Offline frank carlisle

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Re: how much of the battery gets used in a 6 minute run?
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2006, 05:29:56 PM »


dean,
i don't know if you're still watching this post, but.
i got an accurate reading on the bats. mAH fed back in during the charging process was 2468 to 2666. so i take that to mean that i'm depleting about 70 to 75% of the available energy.
so, what do you think?
Frank Carlisle

Alan Hahn

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Re: how much of the battery gets used in a 6 minute run?
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2006, 04:28:11 PM »
Frank,
Greetings from Geneva Switzerland---I am here on a Business trip.

Can your charger also discharge? That will tell you how much was left in the battery. Charging is always somewhat inefficient, so I am guessing that you may have more juice in the batteries than you think. Of course it still isn't a good idea to drain them too far. My charger has a cutoff, so that no damage will be done to the battery

I think the thing you could play with is props. Typically the higher the rpm you fly with, the more efficient the the motor (at least in the ideal lossless motor case). Of course by this I mean efficiency of the power (torque *2*Pi*rpm/60) done by the motor vs the power delivered by the battery (Volts*Current), not necessarily the efficiency of the prop in delivering the thrust.

By the way, the max power delivered to the prop is at an rpm just equal to 1/2 the k*Vbattery (same assumption of motor with no friction or hysteresis losses).

If you can increase efficiency, it could mean that you could fly with a lower capacity battery (=less weight). Of course that is a little moot since you have already bought the batteries, but it could be info for the future. There is no use thrashing the air for straight and levelflight if you can get by for less, but still have the power for the overheads.
Electric is a lot different than IC engines, where the cost of fuel and efficiency really don't matter a lot--you can waste a lot of fuel as long as you have good overhead performance. With electric, the extra capacity is weight, which you could conceivably shed. But I am guessing it will take a long time to perfect this--and at the same time the electric options are still improving in addition.

Offline frank carlisle

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Re: how much of the battery gets used in a 6 minute run?
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2006, 07:20:28 PM »

alan,
yes my charger will also discharge. i haven't used that function yet and it could be a while  before i really understand what i'm doing. this is all new to me and much of the technical stuff is currently zinging by overhead.
the smoothie is like a book for me. i'm picking this stuff up faster with the smoothie in hand than if i didn't have it.
i'm going to start playing with props next and continue to try and get a handle on the technical end of this.
it's hard to walk by any of my planes now without thinking about putting an electric motor in it.
what does *2*pi*RPM/60 mean?
Frank Carlisle

Offline RickS

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Re: how much of the battery gets used in a 6 minute run?
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2006, 08:34:58 PM »
the smoothie is like a book for me. i'm picking this stuff up faster with the smoothie in hand than if i didn't have it.


Hi Frank,

   interesting comment you made...isn't this  exactly what we discussed a couple of months ago?  I'm really glad you are enjoying yourself in this new endeavor.  When the weather breaks  again we'll have to meet and fly both of our electric Smoothies together and start some serious  experimenting with props and other items.  I just know there is a lot of potential with that aircraft just waiting to be discovered.  I flew mine several times locally last week during the warm weather break and am very pleased with its potential.  See you soon...Rick
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Alan Hahn

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Re: how much of the battery gets used in a 6 minute run?
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2006, 02:05:10 PM »
Frank,
To actually calculate power in Watts, the formula is torque in Newton-meters times the angular velocity. Angular velocity is the angular changeper second, expressed as  radians (1 turn=360 degrees= 2*pi approximately =6).

Normally we talk about rpm==revolutions/minute, so to convert to revolutions/sec (rps) , divide by 60. To convert to angular velocity from rps, multiply by 2pi or 6. If you look carefully, the conversion is approximately rpm/10.

Now most of us can't measure torque, so all the conversion numbers are pretty meaningless. But what is nominally true is that the torque of an electric motor linearly decreases from it maximum when the motor is stalled out (0 rpm), to zero at rpm="k"*Vbattery. "k" is the value they often quote in the motor specs, typically kilorpm/volt. So for example, the AXI 2820/8 shows a "k" =1500RPM/Volt, so a 10 V battery would spin this motor-noload (with no prop at all) at 15krpm. At this rpm, the motor will generate an effective voltage (because it acts like a generator) which exactly cancels the Battery voltage---so not current flow. With no current, the torque is equal to 0. I am ignoring any friction or hysteresis loss here, but not the ohmic resistance of the motor coil, internal battery resistrance, or ESC resistance. I note that if I look at the specs of this AXI,

http://www.modelmotors.cz/index.php?lang=czech&id=en&nc=produkty_vypis&kategorie=m_neodym_ac&id_rady=axi_28&id_produktu=axi_2820_8&nazev_rady=AXI%202820/8%20

it tells me that it actually draws 3.3 Amps at 10V under no load--this is just the torque on the motor due to friction--and other small losses--in other words the "real" world.

Since Power=Torque*angular velocity, and torque is dropping linearly with rpm, and angular velocity increases linearly with rpm the power ends up maxed at just 1/2 of the "k"*Vbattery value. For that AXI above, that would be about 7500 RPM with the 10V battery. This is of course the ideal case, but tells you something about these motors. It's power and torque you want when you pull the nose up.Since the prop rpm drops under load, the torque on the prop goes up. If you are running the rpm above the max power level, the power also goes up, so your plane gets that extra boost in the climb. Of course the efficience drops as the rpm drops (since the current rises, and ohmic heating in the windings, battery, and ESC goes up), but hey---you can't have everything!

That was all at fixed voltage levels. If you run your system at less than full blast, and also enable constant rpm load in the  ESC, you even can get more! As the rpm drops, the ESC turns up the effective voltage to the motor, so you get even more power. And when you drop the nose, the ESC lowers the effective voltage, making the prop act as a big break in the downhills. Since we are apparently allowed to run ESC's in this mode, it sure sounds like a neat way to run motor control. The main point is that the plane needs to fly acceptably at the lower power settings for this to work.

What I kind of enjoy about electrics is that you can actually make nominal calculations on how the motor works--they are a lot easier to model and understand than the standard 2 stroke engine, where you need to understand airflow, mixtures, turbulance, motor loads.  Of course there is still the complications of a real model flying on lines with a real propeller, so actual experimentation is the real way to find out what works.

Offline frank carlisle

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Re: how much of the battery gets used in a 6 minute run?
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2006, 07:54:23 PM »
alan,

that's a heck of a post. i could feel a little needling sensation at the back of my brain and just when i thought i was getting it, it slipped away.sort of like a large bass on a warm june evening on lake st, clair.
i give you a k-point on it. and i understood the wrap up.
Frank Carlisle

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: how much of the battery gets used in a 6 minute run?
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2006, 06:37:46 AM »
Allan, you not need to calculate output power from torque and rpm if you want to know efficiency, it is easy from eletric parameters no load rpm/V, internal resistance and no oad current. The producer always state the max possible efficiency.

It also allows to calculate on-shaft power from input power and loses (or efficiency).

Every motor has its max efficiency current, if you go to high rpm possible, you will get to zero efficiency because the output power is zero. But in any case you are right with fact that the max efficiecy current is typically lower that max current, so the max power you can reach at lower then optimal current.

For example Axi 2826/10 has current of max efficiency with 4 cells (yes it depends also on voltage) ~21A (~86%), but still - if you run it at 40A, it is still ~83%, so no big problem.

BTW it is also not big problem to measure real power from measured props ... example is here:  http://www.netax.sk/hexoft/stunt/images/smaster.gif



Offline frank carlisle

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Re: how much of the battery gets used in a 6 minute run?
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2006, 02:37:30 PM »
i'm finding that having a working stunt size electric model is the best way to work out the dynamics of e-powerfor me. it's better than a text book.
Frank Carlisle


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