How come?

[peabody]

I remember the "early days" of folks flying with tuna pipes....
They sure made them a LOT more difficult seeming to use than I have experienced.....run aways because of leaking headers, leaking pipe couplers and pressure tap location....
I see today's pipe set-ups as pretty much "plug and play"....with changes only required to hone the overall performance....
What happened?

[Brian Massey]

Yea, I remember the tuna pipes well, floundered for years with those. As I recall the plane had a blue fin . . . or was it a yellow fin? Doesn't matter, because I did have a whale of a time with it perched on my plane, which as I recall was a Dolphin.   

Brian

[Randy Powell]

Like anything else, people learned the tricks to run them.

[Brett Buck]

I remember the "early days" of folks flying with tuna pipes....
They sure made them a LOT more difficult seeming to use than I have experienced.....run aways because of leaking headers, leaking pipe couplers and pressure tap location....
I see today's pipe set-ups as pretty much "plug and play"....with changes only required to hone the overall performance....
What happened?

  Many of the guys you were talking to didn't know what they were doing. I saw that in droves when I went to the 93 NATs, I heard so much stuff about how the engines "blew front seals in 40 flights" and other bizarre stuff that isn't real, I thought I had entered the Twilight Zone. Windy borrowed one of my engines as a backup for the week because he was afraid it was going to have some problem before the end of the week "like everybody does". This was the airplane that ran the exhaust through a 2' long arrowshaft to the tail, which is not a good idea. Another notable from your neck of the woods missed qualifying mostly because he was told to put the pipe at a particular (wrong) length and never ever change it. Even when it was obviously not working, he wouldn't change it to what David and I suggested because he was afraid his buddies would find out.

   this same sort of thinking is still happening in other areas. It always confounds me to see that people have problems that everyone knows the solution to, has the solution presented to them, and then have them refuse to do it because it goes against their buddy's or hero's dogma. There was a great example at the 2009 NATs, so it's still going on.

  Hunt and Werwage never had any significant issues with it, we never had any significant issues, most people didn't. Once we learned to seal the headers with 5 minute epoxy or silicone bathtub caulk instead of the rubber water pump gasket material, we had no issues, and everybody figured that out in a few weeks.

   Brett

[RandySmith]

Unfortunate, but there were at least 3 people that were very well known and did everything they could to spread disinformation , false, information, and sabotage anything to do with piped setups, I saw and heard this first hand on many occasions. They also tried to enlist as many people as possible to help spread the word that piped stuntships were a bad idea that will never work. It was / is very simple once you know how to setup a piped plane. Not hard at all and almost anyone can do it, but not when they are bombarded with wrong info. I bought many dozens of engines and set them up so people would have plug n play setups for their planes, and designed pipes. Made charts and information sheets available to everyone that wanted them, and sold over 3000 turnkey systems to pilots all over the world.
It is still hard to get the right info to some pilots about many other things , even today
By the way , that was also when we were told that CF props didn't work and they would never be as good as wood one!

Randy

[Howard Rush]

People probably thought that using five-minute epoxy was a joke.  It obviously couldn't work.  That's what I thought, but it worked fine.  I don't think I ever had a header leak.  

[RandySmith]

People probably thought that using five-minute epoxy was a joke.  It obviously couldn't work.  That's what I thought, but it worked fine.  I don't think I ever had a header leak.  

Duct tape work great also, the kind that has glue and paper on 1 side and metal foil on the other side, use for wrapping and sealing the ducts in your house . Too many people used thick gasket material or business card stock, this crushed and then naturally leaked.
Never had any problems with this for all the years I used it.
I sent pieces out to maybe 2 or 300 people, most all like it.
Randy

[Brett Buck]

Unfortunate, but there were at least 3 people that were very well known and did everything they could to spread disinformation , false, information, and sabotage anything to do with piped setups, I saw and heard this first hand on many occasions. They also tried to enlist as many people as possible to help spread the word that piped stuntships were a bad idea that will never work.

   I would have to note, however, that they seemed to have the wrong information and spread it around long before they started bad-mouthing it. Several of these same people had effusive praise for piped systems as late as August 1993. I presume that this was before they noticed that the alternative engines they had for sale started gathering dust.   More-or-less coincidental with the 1993 Team Trials, this all changed. Much fun ensued. That ended up having ripple effect until *2006*.

   I learned a lot about people from this, not the least of which was that I was among the less crazy/obsessed people involved with this event. Stunt people are generally great but the kind of dedication it takes to be competitive filters for people that are out on the edges of normal. That still alarms me because I know how crazy *I* am.

    Brett

[Brett Buck]

People probably thought that using five-minute epoxy was a joke.  It obviously couldn't work.  That's what I thought, but it worked fine.  I don't think I ever had a header leak.  

   By the way, *uncured* silicone RTV will also work even though it seems like it might not. I have sealed up a header joint and flown the plane 10 minutes later. There's no way it will flow out the tiny scratches, even if it remains "liquid", and I suspect it cures up pretty quick once the engine starts.

   Brett

[Joseph Lijoi]

Duct tape work great also, the kind that has glue and paper on 1 side and metal foil on the other side, use for wrapping and sealing the ducts in your house . Too many people used thick gasket material or business card stock, this crushed and then naturally leaked.
Never had any problems with this for all the years I used it.
I sent pieces out to maybe 2 or 300 people, most all like it.
Randy

Red Green would be proud!

The real deal is an elegant solution to a problem can never be kept down, because performance rules and performance is fun! 

So y'all be grateful and I hope that all of you have lots of fun in the coming year!

 

[peabody]

I pretty much excluded Winfred...he has NEVER followed an instruction....
But even at the Nats a few years after '93, I distinctly remember seeing several top fliers with their planes on their back and doing "pipe dances"...
These are, essentially, the same powerplants that I have used without any trouble at all...

[john e. holliday]

Isn't it human nature to take the instructions that are given and discard them.  Also to figure that we know more than the person that has een doing something successfully for years.    I been at this long enough that I've seen it with the Supertigre .46 era,  to the piped .40's, PA engines,  RO-Jett engines and now electric.  Props, don't even bring that up to me.  As no matter the power plant, fuel and props depends on which part of this great land we are flying in. 

[Eric Viglione]

Randy is right on with this one. I cut a small section from roll of copper gasket tape and use removable thread lock, but same basic principal as his aluminum tape. My engine bays on may last 3 pipe ships are still clean as can be after hundreds of flights. Most if any header staining I get is from whatever mist blows back out the venturi, and that's almost nill since I don't run the pipe too short and run an air-filter.

You can probably attribute some of the increased success to the Internet and StuntNews. There are no secrets anymore, and the best of the best share everything. Manufacturers like Randy have websites now with proven setups listed and are an ever present source of help at contests. If yours goes haywire out of the blue, re-check the basic support hardware the same as you would a fox 35 (tank, plug, fuel, etc), because if you followed the instructions, it's probably not going to be the pipe setup.

I personally would also attribute no small part of the increased reliability to the fact that Randy's makes his own pipes now and resin he uses are a lot more reliable than offerings in the past by various other makers. I'm  running some pipes that are several years old now, thousands of flights, and still no pin-holes, etc. just a little darkening on the first inch or so of pipe closest to the header on my oldest pipe, thats it.

I'd say the only weak link part of the hardware now left is the coupler. The heavy duty red and blue ones now that seem about as good as we can get. The big trick here is to have a straight shot from the header exit to the pipe. Any deviation or bend will stress the coupler and the hot gas and vibrations will shorten its life, and beat it to death until it fails at the bend.

If anything, I've probably become complacent running the pipe. I used to have rituals of ridiculous levels of pre-contest maintenance. Now I only change or replace what I feel is necessary at the moment, before my last practice sessions prior to a contest. (open a fresh can of fuel and do test flights on it, new plug, filter, etc) If no hiccups on that new plug or filter etc during the last practice flights, it's good to go.

In the ultimate holy grail of laziness, the one last thing to conquer would be to find a prop/nitro combo I could run year round from Florida 98+ degree summer heat and humidity to 38degree cold and wind in the morning round and mid 70's second round at the typical KOI without having to change anything. Hah! A guy can dream, no? (And before some electric guys jump in here, don't bother. I've already seen up close and personal what has to be done to get the same run when the temps vary as much as I'm talking about, and it's no less effort than switching fuel jugs and a prop.)

EricV

Duct tape work great also, the kind that has glue and paper on 1 side and metal foil on the other side, use for wrapping and sealing the ducts in your house . Too many people used thick gasket material or business card stock, this crushed and then naturally leaked.
Never had any problems with this for all the years I used it.
I sent pieces out to maybe 2 or 300 people, most all like it.
Randy

[Chris McMillin]

I just learned two things I didn't know, red or blue header coupler only; Check.
Silicone on header to engine; Check.

I was still using paper and those gray couplers, blow the couplers and weepy headers.
Brett, the little grommet in the venturi trick is working well.

I used to get a weekend without a leak, I wonder what I'll get now? The model's only 20 years old!!!

Chris...

[Steve Fitton]

The red coupler is about as pliable as cast iron, but it seems to last ok.  I had to replace mine at the 475 flight mark only because some blowby from a loose zip tie had crisped it a bit.

I think Banjock uses heater hose from one of the philly clubs many muscle cars for couplers.

[Paul Walker]

Eric,
I'm not sure what electric guy you are referencing, but my system does NOT do what you mentioned. The most I do is change the motor speed a little. At my field, I have flown in 100 degrees down to 30 degrees. No significant change except in the load on the battery.

This is an example of how these "myths" get started. Muffler, pipe,electric, or whatever. Someone sees someone else struggle and instantly there are "Facts" or "Truths" about what happened, right or wrong.

As far as pipe reliability goes, for me the big change was in the quality of the pipes. The earlier ones were not that good, but did work when new. ALWAYS had to check for leaks, and those were covered with JB Weld patches.

[Steve Fitton]

Eric,
I'm not sure what electric guy you are referencing, but my system does NOT do what you mentioned. The most I do is change the motor speed a little. At my field, I have flown in 100 degrees down to 30 degrees. No significant change except in the load on the battery.

This is an example of how these "myths" get started. Muffler, pipe,electric, or whatever. Someone sees someone else struggle and instantly there are "Facts" or "Truths" about what happened, right or wrong.

...

I doubt very much Eric was referencing you.  I would imagine he is referencing what he sees at the local/regional level down South.  With my own eyes in my neck of the woods I see e power guys have about the same amount of trouble as guys getting a glo setup dialed in.  I don't consider that myth, merely reality.  By definition, your frame of reference in terms of powertrain, trim or whatever is so far above the average guy that it may seem inconceivable that average people still struggle with the stuff from time to time.  In many cases its simply because alot of the guys are tinkerers, and rather than follow published setup data, they enjoy reinventing the wheel.  Sometimes this tinkering even invents new failure modes, like the infamous "Mach runaway" at our local flying field.
  Even with the best information, there is still a learning curve.  I have watched one of our guys e plane quit because a wire bundle needed better supporting.  And, things still can break.   Another guys plane ejected the shaft and propellor because the little metal clip on the back of the shaft failed.  I wouldn't call any of that myth, to me it looked like reality.

PS, and if Eric is referencing the KOI I think he is, it wasn't 38°, it was more like 24°, and yes the e power guys were having alot of trouble keeping enough heat in their batteries.  Obviously us glo people were not having much fun either.

[Eric Viglione]

Gee Paul, a wee bit touchy? Have some egg nog. Better yet, come on over and I'll spike it for ya real good and you can tell me all your secrets! I have an old 4stroke plane laying around that would probably make a great e-power conversion to play with... I'll put you to work in the shop. Anyways, Ya, pretty much what Steve said. I couldn't reply right away, I was in Tampa with Lisa at the mall (eeeek! it's crazy out there!) She just had to go, she was having shopping envy.

If you look with an open mind, it wasn't a slam on someone at your level, or on e-power at all, it was a pre-emptive self defense measure for the E-vangelist's to leave it be, that's all. All I said was it take no less fiddling than what I already do, which is fill the tank from a different jug that has less nitro in it (not really any extra work), and switch to a winter prop (a minor bit of work).

I'd call that a wash, or maybe even slightly less work than having to go get my work stand out of the van, flip the plane on it's back, pull the cowl (yah, I know, you guys have magnets now because your cowls off all the time, so thats not too hard) then you got to remember what dip switch setting or get out your portable programmer to "change the motor speed a few rpms" . I'm pretty sure you don't let your batteries cold-soak in the car overnight or during the contest, and take similar precautions that most people have to do. I was just saying every package has it's little peccadillo's, and even more so for the uninitiated who are still learning as Steve mentioned.

EricV

[Brett Buck]

As far as pipe reliability goes, for me the big change was in the quality of the pipes. The earlier ones were not that good, but did work when new. ALWAYS had to check for leaks, and those were covered with JB Weld patches.

     I only had occasional problems with leaky pipes (you might recall on of my incidents, at the NATs of course) and they were all from the same era in the mid-90s. Hunts originals were pretty good, the first Randy/Billy types were sometimes a problem, then they found the magic material and it has become a non-issue for at least 15 years now. I have found maybe one leak in the later Randy/Billy pipes in about the last 10 years, always at the rear support.

     The other problem we all found, usually on the first run, was the tendency of the original Bobby Hunt pipes to collapse in the front. It didn't long to figure out how to fix that.


    Brett

[peabody]

Thanks for clarifying....I figured it wasn't the engines that were issues...

[RandySmith]

Then you had the "pipe fuel" at the Lawrencville NATs that has NO oil in it, a couple of Windy's guys  burned up VFs that I had setup. had ZERO to with the engines or pipe setups.
The a few people that decided that it was the "trick" setup to run them in a screaming dead 2 stroke.
Randy

[Paul Walker]

Gee Paul, a wee bit touchy? Have some egg nog. Better yet, come on over and I'll spike it for ya real good and you can tell me all your secrets!

Eric,
No, I was sure you were not talking about me. Sorry if you got that from my response.

Quite the opposite in fact. I was guessing you had watched someone "not so up on things" and got your fact from them.

Yeah, come on up and fly with me sometime!