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Author Topic: high wind landing  (Read 2601 times)

Offline t michael jennings

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high wind landing
« on: August 01, 2007, 08:30:43 PM »
What is the best way to land a stunter in high or stiff wind situation?

A couple of weeks ago, I was practicing in very stiff wind.  The engine quit, and the aircraft was settling down.  At about one foot high, the aircraft came into the wind.  It immediately sailed up to about 3 foot elevation.  Then the aircraft came to a complete stop at 3 foot elevation.  Then it nosed over and made a hard landing.

When in a windy situation should one:

1) Fly the aircraft up to about 45 degree elevation before the engine dies and fly it into the ground,

or

2) Fly the aircraft down to just off the ground and let it stall out?

Then, once rolling on the ground, should you,

3) give it some "up" control to hold the tail to the ground (lift up situation),

or

4) give it some "down" control to hold it on the ground (nose oversituation)?


t michael jennings                      VD~




Offline Wynn Robins

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Re: high wind landing
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2007, 10:06:30 PM »
the last couple of laps you should start to "whip" the plane -by that I mean you actually drag the airplane around to keep the speed up - you can then get the speed into the upwind portion of your landing and all is well

if you watch racing guys - they are REALLY good at this (they use it to get the plane to the pit man)


there is a guy here that can whip his stunter pretty much continiously - I mean - any amount of laps he wants  - it is a bit of a skill. 

practise it - it is quite a difficult thing to get right - but once you know how - it is worth all the frustration of learning
In the battle of airplane versus ground, the ground is yet to lose

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: high wind landing
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2007, 05:47:38 AM »
In Control Line as well as real airplanes the answer is the same:

Get the airplane onto the ground as soon as possible and don't worry about how it looks.  In real planes we let the shock absorbers do their job and let the passengers complain about a hard landing.  Low airspeed in high wind is death, so land with as much airspeed as feasible.
Paul Smith

Offline peabody

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Re: high wind landing
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2007, 06:36:07 AM »
Howard Rush did the coolest landing that I have eve seen and it was pretty windy when he accomplished it....

He did his "kill loop" downwind and hit the ground in less than a quarter lap at a real high rate of speed....but there was NO perceptible flare, and no bounce, and his roll out was fairly short.....he pretty much took off running backward to scrub speed while on the ground...

The left coast guys seem to make fairly decent landings, due, in part I believe, to their proper use of a "kill loop"....a very positive shut off that, when positioned properly, leads to an effective landing...

I believe that Ted Fancher credited use of metal tanks as being the primary reason that these kill loops work as well as they do?

Remember, too, that there should be no perceptible flare on landing....

Offline Mike Danford

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Re: high wind landing
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2007, 10:45:58 AM »
Well, there's no simple answer to your question.  A landing is a very dynamic event.  A better answer would be to tell you to fly the plane, don't let the plane fly you.  As you are coming into the wind, you must anticipate that and start feeding down so the airplane doesn't rise.  Just like level laps. 

It's just that you don't have as much power, so if you feel you need a little more speed to control the event better, whip a little.  If you are right where you want to be, neither whip nor lag.  Touching down on the downwind side is tough because of the groundspeed, on the upwind side tough because of low airspeed, poor tension.  It just takes a lot of practice.  Once you are on the ground, again, it depends.  Just keep flying.  Watch the model CAREFULLY, if it's rising, stop it!  Give some down. 

It also depends a lot on how the model and gear are set up.  I try to maintain a constant rate of descent all the way to touchdown.  So, once you bleed off a little speed, staying level, and then get to the speed you want to land, let the model come down at a constant rate.  The attitude should already be set.  If you need more speed, then whip.  So, a little whipping on the upwind side, letting off on the down wind side.  Once it gets there, just look at it like flying level laps there.  DON'T let it get airborn again if you can help it. 

It helps to have the model set up so it can handle some ground speed.  You'll notice most competitive ships have a very level attitude on the ground.  A very nose high attitude gives you more angle of attack, so you gotta be really slow to stay on the ground without a lot of pitch.  Tougher.  Practice keeping the model on the ground a bit longer than usual on takeoff, you'll get the feel of "flying" the plane on the ground.

Hope this helps.

Tools

Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: high wind landing
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2007, 12:01:56 PM »
If you have enough time left on the 8 minute clock, windfly a couple of deadstick lazy 8's and use the time to think just how to land the airplane. 

Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: high wind landing
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2007, 12:28:50 PM »
As Wynn suggests, learn to whip it, at least through the headwind and upwind sectors.

Depending on the model, it might work to stick it down just as it comes into the tailwind sector. I.e., a mainwheel landing on conventional tail-dragger. A hair of down elevator should stick it down. Too much elevator might do the wrong thing...

You'd be touching down at a pretty fast ground speed, so make it smooth. Don't dive at the ground - it'll bounce. Grease it on just past dead upwind, and with luck it won't roll so far past the downwind point that the wind starts steering it all over the county.
\BEST\LOU

Online James Lee

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Re: high wind landing
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2007, 02:57:16 PM »
I'll pu in my two cents worth...    ~^   First of all, if you just fly till it quits, there is little chance of knowing when it will quit in relation to the wind direction.  This makes a landing in the wind a bit problematical...    y1
As has already been mentioned, some planes with hard tanks can be shut off with a hard loop (or two) on the downwind side.  I prefer to do this and carry the speed through the upwind side and then let it land as it approaches the directly downwind point...   It takes some practiced towing through the whole lap.  and then as it touches down, a delicate touch to feed in some down 'should' keep it stuck....
The problem with a touchdown on the upwind side is a very good chance a very small bounce will turn in to a very large problem as the plane turns into a kite.
Doing this allows the pilot to do a 'landing manuever' in its entirety because they know fairly closely where the plane will quit coming out of the shut off loop....  seems much better than a guess as to when it will quit....   FWIW
thanks
Jim   

Offline SteveMoon

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Re: high wind landing
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2007, 03:36:58 PM »
If at all possible I try to land downwind in this situation. It's easier
to get the plane onto the ground safely. The danger here, though,
is landing at too high a rate of speed and having the plane 'takeoff'
again when it rolls back into the wind. Be careful and stay with the
plane until it has stopped rolling. Keep the line tension tight, even
with the plane on the ground.

If the plane is going too fast to be landed downwind, then I try to
keep the plane on a steady track as it comes back into the wind.
I try not to give it any up or down input and just fly it to the ground.
I also am backing up just a little to keep the lines tight. It is quite easy
for the plane to get blown in and stall in this situation.

I had to land in just this manner at the Nats this year during a typically
windy Nats flight. The motor quit downwind and I brought the plane
down quickly and steadily and put it on the ground right in front of the
judges with no bounces. The plane stopped immediately since it was
pointing into the wind. I was very pleased with the landing, and the judges
seemed to like it also, as they gave me quite high scores.

Later, Steve

steven yampolsky

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Re: high wind landing
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2007, 11:24:36 AM »
If you don't know how to whip the model then you are limited to downwind landings only. If you can whip, you have entire circle available to you to land with high scores. The ONLY tricky areas are where the models transitions from tailwind to headwind and vice-versa. If you are away of those area, you can compensate accordingly. The trick is let the model land while the wings have lift. Too slow and you are at mercy of the winds.

Another factor in making good landings in the wind is landing gear position. If the wheels are too far forward, the model will have a tendency to bounce. If they are to far back, you won't be able to land on grass. If you use trike gear, you'll have MUCH easier time landing in windy conditions on grass. It's almost like cheating!

Online john e. holliday

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Re: high wind landing
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2007, 05:53:24 PM »
How do you set up a metal tank so it will quit when you do the loop??   I have never been able to get an engine to quit by looping it.  DOC Holliday
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: high wind landing
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2007, 06:48:32 PM »
How do you set up a metal tank so it will quit when you do the loop??   I have never been able to get an engine to quit by looping it.  DOC Holliday

HI Doc,

You have to know pretty much when the tank is low enough on fuel for it to work.  It works best for me to do 2 loops, a great big loop and then "pop" a really tight loop as it goes back over the top.  But I have found that it only works when you're with in a couple of laps of the engine stopping on it's own.
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Offline Trostle

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Re: high wind landing
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2007, 07:32:56 PM »
I am assuming the question ias what to do for the landing sequence when there is a lot of wind.  By a lot of wind, I am further assuming it is one of those situations that you wish the airplane was not in the air at all because you are wondering how you are going to get it on the ground.  I am disregarding what is necessary to get a 40 point landing in a 25 mile an hour wind.  Instead, the question is how to get the thing on the ground safely so that maybe it can be flown again.  Given that, here is what I recommend.  It works for me. 

Regardless of where the engine stops, you need to work (as in some serious whipping) to get the thing on the ground on the dead down wind side of the circle the first time it i going downwind.  That means that there will be a LOT of speed because you will have the flying speed plus the wind speed.   You almost have to force it down by feeding a lot of down elevator in it.  You need to have a good LG system that will not  bounce which is sometime difficult for a fuselage mounted gear.  (A wing gear with good torsion bars helps landings in any situation, but that is another subject for another time.  As soon as it touches down, feed in a lot of down to keep it on the ground.  It will still be rolloing on the upwind side and needs the down, or else it will become airborne again with usually disastrous results.

Does this work?  One year at VSC, I had the pleasure to have an airplane in the air when one of the VSC infamous dust devils came through the site.  Folding chairs were blown past me in the center of the circle.  The violent part of the turbulence passed but there was still a vicious wind of at least 25 to 30 MPH (estimated - the trees were realy swerving and people were still holding their models on the ground.  The engine quit,  I got it on the ground on the downwind side, the thing rolled on the ground for over one lap.  People were around the circle to catch it after the roll to prevent the wind from picking it up again.

I hope that I did not assume too much into this question.

Keith

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: high wind landing
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2007, 10:33:19 AM »
Just a couple of additional thoughts.

As Rich suggested, we do have pretty good success with high wind landings out here on the left coast.  Some of the reasons for that success have been touched on above, the cutoff loop and proper landing gear location.  There are, in addition, some other important things to know.  Here's a pretty complete primer on how we approach the problem.

IMPORTANT: NOTE THE FOLLOWING DISCUSSION IS PRETTY MUCH PERFECT FOR HARD SURFACES BUT USING IT ON A BUMPY GRASS FIELD COULD RESULT IN DAMAGE BECAUSE YOUR TOUCH DOWN SPEED WILL BE MUCH HIGHER THAN "NORMAL".

The cutoff loop works with a "hard tube" tank; i.e. a non clunk.  The "secret" is that when the tank gets close to empty any sustained positive or negative "G" load will draw the fuel to the (in the case of an inside cutoff loop) bottom back  corner of the tank and uncover the fuel pick up tube centered in tank.  The secret is generally to merely sustain the positive g for a long enough period of time that the fuel line is pretty much full of air and the engine flames out just as if the tank was totally out of fuel.  Bill suggested one normal loop followed by a tight one.  I personally think one large loop started at about 30 degrees elevation works best because when you get to the top of the loop not only the g loads but gravity are working to get the fuel away from the pick up tube.  Listen intently to your engine and learn what it sound like when it is getting to that point.  Usually it will be a subtle but noticable increase in revs that tells you the tank is about dry.  I hear the first hint of that and go two additional full laps and then do the loops coming into the wind on the third lap.  This is reliable about 90% of the time.  If the needle setting is leaner than normal due to the high winds and a need for a little more "zip", I'll go an additional couple laps.

The cutoff loop should be started to the flyer's left of downwind (for the vast majority who fly CCW; the opposite for you sinister, backward types).  When doing a loop into the wind this way the high winds will actually accelerate the ship around the loop.  This does two good things.  First it increases the g loads and helps pull the fuel away from the p.u. tube; second it gets the airplane really moving (much more than you will ever be able to accomplish be whipping in a high wind).  This "afterburner" effect is what makes the classic west coast high speed landing possible in well under a lap, by providing the energy to penetrate back into the wind and give the flyer very positive pitch control while doing so.

This energy and positive control should be used by the pilot to touch the airplane down with precision somewhere on the part of the circle between where the wind is directly on the airplanes tail and prior to dead "downwind" with respect to the pilot.  That's a quarter lap or so that will be ideal.  It is valuable but not essential that the touchdown occur prior to coming back into the wind.  If the speed is still up it is possible but harder to make a clean touch down. There should be no attempt to make a full stall landing, trust me, at the speed you're going it ain't going to stall but will, instead climb back up, ruinning your landing points.  Instead, think of flying the airplane onto the ground (a very common practice in full size aircraft up to and including B747s in high winds).  You will find you can make surprisingly good, smooth touchdowns.

IMPORTANT: Continue "flying the airplane" after touchdown until it comes to a stop.  Don't simply jam down control because at these speeds you might well pitch the ship up on it's nose.  Instead, as the speed decreases apply increasing down control until it stops rolling. Just prior to coming to a stop return the controls to neutral because you will no be at the mercy of whatever wind gradient and direction exist at the point it stops.  Large control surface deflections expose the ship to potential flip overs just sitting still in high winds.  With the controls at neutral there is much less risk of doing so.

Landing gear: Two really important things here.  First, the point at which the wheels touch the ground with the airplane level needs to be within a fraction of 15 degrees forward of the Center of Gravity.  Don't ask me why, ask Wild Bill who told us this "essential" piece of information 40 or so years ago.  Trust me, it is "magic".  When the wheels meet the tarmac at this point you can essentially "fly" the airplane while it is on the ground ... or, when it is taking off or landing.  Much forward of that point and the tail will generally fall when the gear touches down (and you "will" go airborne again at the speeds we're talking about.

Second important thing about landing gears.  You need brakes.  Don't laugh, I'm serious. I always install an "O" ring between the wheels and the wheel retainer and cinch the wheel pretty snuggly against the "O" ring.  The wheel shouldn't "spin" at all when you try to spin it.  Exactly how snug will depend on the weight of your ship.  The proper "snugness" will result in little or no observable change in the take off roll but will have a significant effect on the length of the landing roll.  That's what you want to avoid the extended roll out back into the wind which exposes the lazy pilot (the guy who thinks he's got the landing wired ... don't ask me how I know this) to the dreaded "omigod it's back in the air again" experience. 

By the way, that little bit of drag on the wheels helps in making a smooth wheel landing because it tends to pitch the model just a touch forward which helps keep the angle of attack from increasing and exposing you to a bounce if you touch down a bit hard. ANother benefit, if you make a really good touchdown you can't even hear the wheels spin up.  No clanking or whirring of plastic on steel.  If the judges have to guess where the airplane touched down, they've got to be impressed and will score accordingly.(CAVEAT: DON'T OVER DO THIS BRAKE BUSINESS.  YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO PRETTY FIRMLY PUSH THE AIRPLANE FORWARD ON THE GROUND AND HAVE IT ROLL TWO OR THREE FEET BEFORE STOPPING AND IT CERTAINLY SHOULDN'T NOSE OVER WHEN DOING SO.  ALSO, BE SURE IT TRACKS STRAIGHT AHEAD WHILE DOING SO.  OBVIOUSLY, THE FRICTION ON THE LEFT AND RIGHT WHEELS SHOULD BE AS CLOSE TO SYMMETRICAL AS POSSIBLE. BE MODERATE!

One last thing that is very important.

AIRPLANE TRIM HAS A GREAT DEAL TO WITH HANDLING HIGH WINDS ON LANDING.  FIRST AND MOST OBVIOUS, THE WINGS NEED TO BE LEVEL OR, IF NOT, THE OUTBOARD WING MUST BE DOWN WHILE UPRIGHT.  IF YOUR SHIP FLIES WITH THE OUBOARD WING HIGH IN UPRIGHT IN LEVEL FLIGHT, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TROUBLES IN THE GLIDE ON THE UPWIND SIDE OF THE CIRCLE.

ALMOST AS IMPORTANT IS CG LOCATION AND TRIM IN THE "PITCH AXIS", NOSE UP AND DOWN.  YOUR AIRPLANE CAN NOT BE TAIL HEAVY!  THE ABILITY TO WHIP REQUIRES A LITTLE PILOT SKILL, YES, BUT NO MATTER HOW SKILLED THE PILOT IS THE AIRPLANE MUST BE UNDER CONTROL TO DO SO.  IF YOUR AIRPLANE IS TAIL HEAVY IT WILL "FLOAT" AND LOSE TENSION COMING INTO THE WIND AND IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU'RE PAUL WALKER OR PAUL MCGILLICUDY.  IF YOU CAN'T WHIP YOUR SHIP FOR LANDING IN GOOD AIR, YOU WILL BE IN TROUBLE WHEN THE WIND BLOWS.  IF THAT DESCRIBES YOUR AIRPLANE, ADD A LITTLE WEIGHT TO THE NOSE (OR, BETTER, REMOVE IT FROM THE TAIL) AND INCREASE LINE SPACING AT THE HANDLE TO REGAIN ANY LOST MANEUVERABILITY

Ted Fancher


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