Handles & Equipment

[john e. holliday]

After reading all the posts on the thread that finally got locked it came to me.  Has anyone taken the equipment we use to destruction?  Like handles I remember the old E-Z Just handles.  Cable inside a plastic housing.  Was used in all of Control Line until someone decided to sue all the manufactures of the plane/equipment of the guy that electrocuted his self.   But then in Rat Racing the planes got to pulling so hard the plastice was giving it up.  Nothing like a pilot with nothing but cable in his hand.  Don't know about the other events a the time.  Carrier had it own handle in the form of the J-Roberts set up.  Now has anybody done tests on the offending handles to see how much load it takes to destroy them?  Bell cranks the same way.  Watched Mike Greb lose a plane to a bellcrank failure in the plane.  Yes we have pull test requiremnets in all events.  Some seem excessive and others seem like not enough.  But, if someone from over seas shjows up at the NATS here in the good old USA or any other contest, how do we tell them their equipment that they have een using for years si illegal?  Yes I know the FAI is not as strict as the USA in some requirements for the control line events. 

I have not used the carbon fibre bellcranks yet.  But, have used Delrun, Nylon, Aluminum and steel bell cranks.  Did have a Perfect bell crank fold up on me during a pull test one time.  It is like the time I wanted to know if a set of lines I had would take the pull test.  Made the test line the way I woud do a complete set.  Anchored my pull test scales to the floor joice in the basement.  The other end to the test line I made up.  Then to a bucket.  Started adding weight to the bucket and watching the scales.  When the single line finally broke it had exceeded the pull test for two lines.  If I was rich enough to get at least two of every handle made I would do the test.  Just to see how much weight each handle would take before breaking.  The attachment point would be a peice of flat steel that would hook on the handle like a persons hand.  If a handle will take at least 25% more than the required pull test how could we argue the use of it?  Reminds of years ago when an individual would have had us using solid wire in all events incluing lead outs.  My thoughts and I hope make some kind of sense.

[Scott Hartford]

I don't understand all the safety concerns myself....... After 27 years of racing motocross and many years in shooting sports, toy airplanes seem to be more hazardous by nature, if one was to read these forums on a regular basis... I got hurt in motocross a few times, but it wasn't the end of the world, it just went with the territory. I wouldn't want to have to ride wrapped in bubble wrap and obeying some pre-determined speed limit, while yielding right-of-way to others in tight corners and passing a detailed tech inspection before every ride. That would suck all the fun out of it for me. I could understand the concern if there were a rash of handle failures with fatal results happening at regular intervals, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I figure most of the fellows that show up to the Nats and such are a pretty smart bunch capable of policing themselves fairly well and not wanting to risk their own equipment to destruction from poor choices in construction. Good enough for me. I fly RC too and there are way fewer rules. Why?  Are control line planes inherently more dangerous?  I would much rather fight off a runaway Nobler or such than a 100cc 43% aerobat. I think sometimes idle minds get too caught up with perceived possibilities instead of actual realities. Just my opinion and if it doesn't meet all your expectations, I'll cheerfully refund your purchase price........

[Bill Little]

HI Doc and Scott,

I certainly have no answer, and you know that we are all going on speculation as far as the other thread goes.  You are directly involved with the AMA, and you know that they are going to set the rules.  You and I both know that when they are set we have to follow them.  We also know that a rule could actually make everything we have used in the past as far as lines, handles, bellcranks, etc., etc., obsolete with one stroke of the pen.  And none of it has to make sense to us, or even have to do with any "practical usage".  I am not flaming the AMA, I am just cognizant of how "disputes" are settled in our society these days.   I hope that those in charge will actually take into account what is safe, and has been proven save in thousands or possibly even millions of uses.  I have just become gun shy of situations where a distinction could be made that renders only one or two items "illegal" and instead wipes the slate clean so that no one can complain that the decision is "unfair".  And if only one item is deemed illegal, SOMEONE WILL CRY "UNFAIR"!  This day and age that outcome is a certainty.  And 99% of those making decisions do not want the hassle.  Look at what occurred with the "Interpretation", made on the spot, when there was rumors of multiple protests about what is/was illegal or not a couple years ago.  That occurrence was unique in itself.

Speculation is fun, but nothing comes of it.  And often it leads to noting but further speculation, rumors become truths, arguments brew, hard feelings develop, friendships are lost, and nothing positive is accomplished.  Only when a decision is made will we have any concrete conditions to operate with.

Understanding the situation isn't even an issue now.  We aren't even sure what the issue is!  And even if we understood what all the fuss is, in the end it wouldn't matter since we are not making the decisions.  For all we know, right now, there might not be ANY changes made. 

Bill

[Marvin Denny]

    I previously replied to this thread, but for some reason it "disappeared" into cyberspace .
  Doc I agree with you 100%--- well not EXACTLY 100%.  I would want the handles to pass a 25%  above the failure rating of both cables (three in the case of Carrier) combined.  Example:  0.018 cables on a two line application, 40# each =  80# + 25% of 80 (20#)=  100# that the handle should stand.
  I pulled the handles I made to 200# each and to 50# on a single end to check for slippage.  no Failures.  I once saw one of the Fox rat race handles fail, but it showed signs of abuse and neglect, so I wouldn't base anything on that failure.
  Since there is no history of handle failures, and no indication of any need for "emergency" rules changes, I would think that all AMA or PAMPA would need to do is address any further "harping. complaining or need of interpetition" through the normal AMA rules change proposal system.  There  it (the suggested proposal) would have to have the "basis of the need for change"  the "data to support such change", and   then be voted on by the masses.
  Am I wrong here?

  Bigiron (one more time)

[Brett Buck]

 Since there is no history of handle failures, and no indication of any need for "emergency" rules changes, I would think that all AMA or PAMPA would need to do is address any further "harping. complaining or need of interpetition" through the normal AMA rules change proposal system.  There  it (the suggested proposal) would have to have the "basis of the need for change"  the "data to support such change", and   then be voted on by the masses.
  Am I wrong here?

    No, right on as near as I can tell. I have a similar problem with the "gel-coat" interpretation - and I am one of the most hard-over on the BOM of anyone you will find. I think both effectively change the rules out-of-cycle and obsolete people's equipment after-the-fact without the opportunity for group feedback.

    There is clearly no real issue with handle safety and as near as I can tell it wasn't argued on that basis.  The issue was entirely about how the existing rules should be interpreted and whether they required metal of some sort at some point in the handle.  And as a point of fact, the only handles that are not currently in question are "cable through grip" handles like the Hot Rock, which are pretty notorious for a relatively high failure rate (although still pretty low in absolute terms) compared to the alternatives. But even THEN, it's not a safety issue, because all it causes is a crash.

    One thing I would say (since although I wasn't involved or even at the NATs this year, I did get somewhat involved after the fact) is that I don't think anyone expected the side effects. The only official ruling has been that the Yatsenko handle with a cloth "rope" was not legal. The rest is just uncertainty on how far the same reasoning extends, and the potentially catastrophic side effects.

   All the people involved are reasonable and long-time modelers so I expect it will get resolved shortly.

     Brett

[Bill Little]

Guys, while we all  love to "cuss/discuss" things near and dear to us, we are beating a dead horse.  All the "postings" we make on these subjects will not determine the outcome.  We can, of course, discuss them, with civility as the couple of us in this thread will, however.

I have just checked back in, have actually been going some work on model airplanes today! LOL!!, but I did talk on the phone with a person who is much more in the know than I am, and at least some of the questions have been answered and are being "published" in the very, very near future.  Some questions that the AMA will have to answer are still pending. 

I just don't want a "rise in blood pressure" from anyone until the "facts", not conjecture, speculation, and desires, are in.

Love you all!
Bill