Handle with bias caused crash of my Vector ?

[Chuck Feldman]

Ditto  KIM,  In the near future I am going to construct a new (for me) handle that will incorporate all things that have been posted here as the correct and best way. That means it will be vertical and have minimum overhang on both ends. I am also considering no longer using the tennis racket grip and going to a golf grip. Once I have done the design and construction I'll make a photo and post it. I will also post the results of flight tests. In testing the number of flights it takes to reach a conclusion.

[Kim Mortimore]

Chuck,
Sounds interesting.  I would like to see the results of your new handle project.

I'm curious if anyone has tried making a handle that is just a bar with the lines attached to the front, right above and below the fingers  (or even to the top of the bar) for even less overhang.  It would require a plane with controls set up for very wide line spacing.

Kim Mortimore

[Ted Fancher]

Kim,

Bless you for your testimony!  

I do hope you find the transition continues to be painless.  There is no doubt it will feel different but I think the rewards will prove valuable in the long run.

Ted

p.s. You're more than welcome, by the way.

[Ted Fancher]

Chuck,
Sounds interesting.  I would like to see the results of your new handle project.

I'm curious if anyone has tried making a handle that is just a bar with the lines attached to the front, right above and below the fingers  (or even to the top of the bar) for even less overhang.  It would require a plane with controls set up for very wide line spacing.

Kim Mortimore

Kim,

That's a really good question and one that I attempted to answer in my two articles on handles back when I was doing the Stunt column in Model Aviation. I'll try to paraphrase my discussion in less than a bazillion words.

The bottom line is that the more the line attachment point moves toward the wrist the lower will be control forces required for a given airplane response.  It is the reverse of the five foot overhang I discussed in my last lengthy post.

The virtue of some overhang is that it is more or less like castering of wheels.  Wheels "caster" so that they will want to continue in the same path when rolled.  A handle with overhang wants to return to "neutral" because as you rotate (up control for instance) the up arm swings above the point of rotation (the wrist) and the load is multiplied by the "arm" that results.  Simultaneously, the down arm moves up closer to the pivot (wrist) and the force on the down arm lowers as a result.  The net result is the handle wants to return to neutral.  It is "stabilizing" in that it "wants" to return the controls to neutral.

My article took the concept a step further than you suggest by moving the line attach points "behind" the wrist so that when "up" control is given the "up" arm gets closer to the pivot (wrist) and the down arm gets further away.  This results in a load on the handle that is "de-stabilizing".  IOW, the load on the lines wants to increase the input because the down line is pulling harder "around" the pivot than is the up line. A handle in this configuration would be very difficult to fly a pattern with because "inputs" to the controls would try to increase the handle angle and a return to neutral would require the "muscle" we ordinarily employ to displace the control surfaces in the first place.

Your concept is somewhere short of having the attach point directly over the wrist.  As a result there will still be some change in the up and down arms as input is applied--but less than the same handle with arms.  As a result the loads for inputs will be somewhat less but there will still be some tendency to return to neutral (stabilizing).

If you made a handle where the line attachment point is directly over the pivot (wrist) there would be no "arm" induced leverage to increase or decrease inputs.  The net result would be a handle with no "feel" to inputs (IMPORTANT NOTE: THIS IS TECHNICALLY NOT QUITE RIGHT BECAUSE THE AIRLOADS ON THE FLAPS AND ELEVATORS WILL BIAS THE PULL ON THE TWO LINES AND WILL ALWAYS PROVIDE SOME "STABILIZING" RETURN TO NEUTRAL FORCES.  IOW, THE TOTAL TENSION ON THE TWO LINES WILL NOT CHANGE;  WHAT WILL CHANGE WILL BE THAT THE SHARE OF THAT TOTAL TENSION WILL INCREASE ON THE LINE PULLED TOWARD THE FLYER AND DECREASE ON THE LINE MOVING FORWARD.  THE DIFFERENCE IN TENSION WILL BE EQUAL TO THE AIRLOADS ON THE DEFLECTED FLAPS AND ELEVATORS). It is, however, still entirely possible to move the line attach point far enough behind the pivot (wrist) to achieve the situation where control deflection will, in and of itself, try to drive the handle to greater deflection rather than return to neutral.

Does any of this make any sense???

Ted

[Kim Mortimore]

Ted,

I am very encouraged by the feel of the vertical neutral handle.  I think I had previously mixed together two separate handle issues in my thinking and treated them the same:  "vertical neutral" (VN) which we have been discussing, and "upright handle" (UH) where the handle is not tilted left or right during inverted and outsides.  Brett said that he had been flying Expert for several years before he became really comfortable with UH (if my memory is working), and I thought "Yikes and eegad!  No way am I going to go thru that kind of relearning curve.  I'll croak before I'm done with it."  I think I had "tarred" both UH and VN with the same brush.  So I'm glad the whim to try VN came along.

Yes, your overhang discussion does make sense and is very helpful.  Since the effects of zero or "negative" overhang appear to be neutral or disadvantageous, if I read you correctly, the interest in them is theoretical--it helps to grok the fizziks involved.  However, positive overhang shorter than we typically use seems like it might be an interesting practical possibility, both reducing the amount of control force required and (maybe) affecting favorably that nebulous thing called "feel".     

Speaking of feel, I posted a diatribe a while back claiming that narrow line spacing is overrated, based primarily on the the spongy, rubber band-like sensation that I have experienced when using narrow spacing, as you may recall, since you participated in that discussion.  I'm thinking it might be interesting to try an experiment using a handle with low to very low overhang and the wide line spacing that would require.  Maybe I can put together a simple quick-build plane with external, adjustable, removeable controls, starting with, say, a 5" bellcrank to accommodate the wide spacing, and see what happens. 

Hope to see you at Meet 'n Meat.

Kim

[Ted Fancher]

Kim,

FWIW, I do believe that setting up the airborne geometry to allow wider spacing would be another "detail" improvement.  A lot of what we do is the result of refined inputs that are based on feel.  As the airborne systems get more and more mechanical advantage (longer horns, smaller deflections, etc.) some of that feel is lost.  The smaller the handle spacing the more you lose that feel as well.  I think wider line spacing would result in greater feedback of these reduced control loads and possibly make maneuvers a tiny bit more precise.  Again, not a quantum leap sort of thing but likely another detail that would allow more consistency.

I emphasize again the airborne system would need to be configured so that roughly the same amount of handle deflection is required for the "same" corner.

Glad you're enjoying your experiment.  Unsure about the Meat and Meet. I've got a concert the same day that I'll have to bail on to get there on Sunday (my son's surprise 40th birthday is Saturday so that's out of the question).  If the "maestro" has plenty of singers for the concert I'll take the month off from that and go visit my other friends (maybe even see if I can still do a pattern myself!).

Ted

[Leo Mehl]

As we all know,  trimming thr handle is just as important as any other trimming on your plane and I think the more experienced you are at flying stunt the more you will realise this. I thrim my handle to get the turning radias as close to the same both directions. Also the trim should be for level flight in both directions. This will make flying your level laps a lot eisier. Find someone that has good experence in trimming your handle to help you and i am sure you will fly much better. 

[RandySmith]

"FWIW, I do believe that setting up the airborne geometry to allow wider spacing would be another "detail" improvement.  A lot of what we do is the result of refined inputs that are based on feel.  As the airborne systems get more and more mechanical advantage (longer horns, smaller deflections, etc.) some of that feel is lost.  The smaller the handle spacing the more you lose that feel as well.  I think wider line spacing would result in greater feedback of these reduced control loads and possibly make maneuvers a tiny bit more precise.  Again, not a quantum leap sort of thing but likely another detail that would allow more consistency."


Hi Ted

I have been chasing this for about 25 years, and have came to the conclusion that a 1 to 1 ratio is as good as it gets for me. I have flown\built stunt ships with 3 , 3.5, 4 and 4.5 bellcranks.
 My ships I use now have the best "feel" at the handle of "stick pressure" and ease of turn in all conditions at a 4 inch spread of the lines.
I am using currently, a 4 inch bellcrank
I have flown mine and many other ships at 4.5 and up to 5 inch handle spread, and down to 3 inch handle spread.
I don't like either when it gets much off from the bellcrank spread, I especially do not like the 3 inch handle spread, as the feel tends to go away , I would describe it as a numb handle.
The 5 inch spread affects the stick pressure and makes it change too much as winds changes.
So I setup my ships as close to the 4 inch span and then adjust the overhang, and a very slight CG adjustment till it feels dead on.
 The handle will sometimes wind up at 3 7\8 or 4 1\8 from making the very fine adjustment, But this is in the range.
I use a 3\4 inch output arm off of a 4 inch bellcrank for 1.25 inch flaphorn connection, and a 7\8 inch Bellcrank output for 1.5 inch flap connections, on the elevator, this setup seems to always wind up at almost 1 to 1, or just a slight bit faster on the elevator IE: 1 inch to 1 inch or  1 inch to 15\16th

I have also retrimmed both the ship and handle of a couple of "other peoples stuntships" that had the planes setup with a very wide, or very small spacing, the planes felt better and they flew them better after

I have seen some 7 and 8 inch handle spacings and wonder how in the world you could ever fly with them??? My control setups must be way off from what they are using

Regards
Randy

[Kim Mortimore]

"...I especially do not like the 3 inch handle spread, as the feel tends to go away , I would describe it as a numb handle."

Hi Randy,

Thanks for that, which is the point I was trying to make in my "Is Narrow Handle Spacing a Free Lunch?" topic a while back.  Some people are big advocates of narrow handle spacing.   

"...The 5 inch spread affects the stick pressure and makes it change too much as winds changes."

Could I ask you to say a bit more about this--how the stick pressure changes?  Do you think this effect might be due in part to the fact that a 5" handle spread is greater than your bellcrank spread?  You mentioned that you like to keep the two spreads close to each other. 

In your 25 years of experimenting with handles, have you ever tried an armless handle with the lines attached to the front or top of the vertical bar, substantially reducing overhang?  This is the thought behind the 5" bellcrank that I mentioned--the idea being to see what would happen with less overhang than conventional handles, using a handle spread wide enough so the line connectors don't touch your fingers, and at the same time keeping handle and bellcrank spreads close.  Any thoughts about what affect the lessened overhang might have?

I'm asking a lot questions here but don't want to impose.  Any part of this you want to respond to would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Kim Mortimore 

[RandySmith]

"...I especially do not like the 3 inch handle spread, as the feel tends to go away , I would describe it as a numb handle."

Hi Randy,

Thanks for that, which is the point I was trying to make in my "Is Narrow Handle Spacing a Free Lunch?" topic a while back.  Some people are big advocates of narrow handle spacing.   

"...The 5 inch spread affects the stick pressure and makes it change too much as winds changes."

Could I ask you to say a bit more about this--how the stick pressure changes?  Do you think this effect might be due in part to the fact that a 5" handle spread is greater than your bellcrank spread?  You mentioned that you like to keep the two spreads close to each other. 

In your 25 years of experimenting with handles, have you ever tried an armless handle with the lines attached to the front or top of the vertical bar, substantially reducing overhang?  This is the thought behind the 5" bellcrank that I mentioned--the idea being to see what would happen with less overhang than conventional handles, using a handle spread wide enough so the line connectors don't touch your fingers, and at the same time keeping handle and bellcrank spreads close.  Any thoughts about what affect the lessened overhang might have?

I'm asking a lot questions here but don't want to impose.  Any part of this you want to respond to would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Kim Mortimore 

Kim

I have maybe 50 or more handles I have used, I even have had many people make me their killer handle and have bought most everything out there.
I have ones so simple they were made from 5 gallon pail holders, to very nice works of art like the ones Paul Pomposo made for me.
I have made and used hard point handles for about 30 years now, the first ones were the yellow Tatone handles. Scott Bair used these almost exclusily back in the 70s and 80s on his StuntFire designs because he could get a larger spacing, He also used much wider bellcranks then.
 I have used a handle similar to what you described but that type is near impossible to keep the airplane tracking thru manouvers as it has hardly any feel, or feedback (stick pressure).
Having too little stick pressure is almost as bad as having too much, You need a certain amount to help the plane go back to neutral, and also to give you feedback pressure in the rounds, loops will just not stay on track with no handle pressure.
I have 2 round handles, these I wanted to use with a certain round bellcrank I got many years ago, The theory behind the round bellcrank is good, but it takes a round handle to complete it. I was going to give Ted feedback on that setup but I never got both of them in one airplane.
I did use the round handle several times on 3 airplanes, It didn't seem to make a lot of differance, if anything the controls felt just a tiny bit faster, and the stick pressure went down, One of the things I didn't like in the round handle was the inability to make the range of adjustments.
I think one day soon I may design another one with more adjustable features in it.

Regards
Randy

[Kim Mortimore]

Thanks Ted and Randy.  Very informative and useful information.   

Kim Mortimore

[Richard Grogan]

Hot Rock! Yayyy! static discharge and all, my big skinny hand still loves 'em. They just feel right. Think I'll cobble up a wooden one or two...

[W.D. Roland]

STATIC DISCHARGE!
Keeps the battery charged, with out that I can't keep on going and going.

Richard, you would really like this one!

All metal in flight adjustable with thumb wheel.

These features allow more metal contact for better current flow

The thumb wheel gives more to do while flying as you can never decide if adjustment is perfect.

Added surprise if left laying in hot sun very long. 

This handle was in some of my dads old stuff, no one remembers it or knows where it came from.

The name cast into it is "Italian" made in Japan

Exact size of Hot rock/Ez-Just small , no plastic to deteriorate!

David
51336

[john e. holliday]

Probably cost a fortune to reproduce and I like it.  DOC Holliday

[Chuck Feldman]

My testing of various handle configurations has stopped for the time being. This because the model I am using was giving me lots of odd manifestations. I E  one flight would require down pressure for level flight. Next flight would require up pressure for level flight. I never found it comfortable enough to do anything but simple maneuver's. So as I used straight handles and bias handles  I became more confused. Could these handles cause such drastic changes? So I gave up and put the model on the work bench. At first just putting strong up and Down inputs everything seemed OK. However when small inputs revealed that there is resistance in the controls around neutral. The model is profile so it was easy to disconnect the elevator. Once I did this the control system became silky smooth. Hmmmm? The elevator movement was found to have friction. So I lubricated the hinges etc. It did no good. The elevator has a 1/8" cross over bar as the elevator's are separate. This turned out to be the source of the friction.
When I get this corrected I will resume my experiment with Biased and Straight handles. By the way this friction could very easily cause a crash.

[Ted Fancher]

My testing of various handle configurations has stopped for the time being. This because the model I am using was giving me lots of odd manifestations. I E  one flight would require down pressure for level flight. Next flight would require up pressure for level flight. I never found it comfortable enough to do anything but simple maneuver's. So as I used straight handles and bias handles  I became more confused. Could these handles cause such drastic changes? So I gave up and put the model on the work bench. At first just putting strong up and Down inputs everything seemed OK. However when small inputs revealed that there is resistance in the controls around neutral. The model is profile so it was easy to disconnect the elevator. Once I did this the control system became silky smooth. Hmmmm? The elevator movement was found to have friction. So I lubricated the hinges etc. It did no good. The elevator has a 1/8" cross over bar as the elevator's are separate. This turned out to be the source of the friction.
When I get this corrected I will resume my experiment with Biased and Straight handles. By the way this friction could very easily cause a crash.

Looking forward to your getting it back in the air.  It'll be fascinating to see how you react to the differences.

Ted

[john e. holliday]

Chuck, was the plane flying okay before you started expeirmenting?  I had one one lyear that just could not trim out.  Three flights in a row without changing anything.  Each flight was different.  Then we started trying more nose weight and then less.  Tried leadout movements/locations and tip weights.  I then found a sucker that liked the design and bought/talked me out of it.  He finally gave up after about thirty flights on the plane.  Sometimes it would do a real good pattern and then next flight not stay on the end of the lines even tho it had good tension.  At the time I was using the Bigiron version of the E-Z Just 4 inch handle.  Have fun,  DOC Holliday

PS:I think  the plane wound up in the trash bin. jeh

[Chuck Feldman]

Doc,

The plane had not been flown for three years. Three months ago I gave away all my flying models because I needed room for the models under construction in my shop. So I had lots of room but nothing to fly. So I borrowed this model and tried it out. It is repaired now and the controls are smooth as can be. It will be OK now.  Chuck

[Chuck Feldman]

Two flights have  been completed. The controls on the plane are no perfect and it flies nicely. First flight was with a straight (Kaz) handle. It was set with the closest line spacing I could get. I had no problem flying the pattern except the sensitivity was to high. Can't close the handle so I switch to one of my biased handles for flight two. This flight was not good because the handle settings are off the insides are good but the outsides are dangerous. Could not fly the pattern with this handle and settings. Next flight will be with this handle with the outside or down line biased to be more sensitive.
Once I have my biased handle trimmed to the plane I will report the results here. As for the Kaz handle. I suppose  I could add nose weight to decrease the sensitivity but that is not something I want to do. Any suggestions on this will be welcome.

Chuck

[Ted Fancher]

Two flights have  been completed. The controls on the plane are no perfect and it flies nicely. First flight was with a straight (Kaz) handle. It was set with the closest line spacing I could get. I had no problem flying the pattern except the sensitivity was to high. Can't close the handle so I switch (ed) to one of my biased handles for flight two. This flight was not good because the handle settings are off; the insides are good but the outsides are dangerous. Could not fly the pattern with this handle and settings. Next flight will be with this handle with the outside or down line biased to be more sensitive.
Once I have my biased handle trimmed to the plane I will report the results here. As for the Kaz handle. I suppose  I could add nose weight to decrease the sensitivity but that is not something I want to do. Any suggestions on this will be welcome.

That red sentences above sounds suspiciously like where this thread began.  That's my suggestion! 

Ted

[RandySmith]

Two flights have  been completed. The controls on the plane are no perfect and it flies nicely. First flight was with a straight (Kaz) handle. It was set with the closest line spacing I could get. I had no problem flying the pattern except the sensitivity was to high. Can't close the handle so I switch to one of my biased handles for flight two. This flight was not good because the handle settings are off the insides are good but the outsides are dangerous. Could not fly the pattern with this handle and settings. Next flight will be with this handle with the outside or down line biased to be more sensitive.
Once I have my biased handle trimmed to the plane I will report the results here. As for the Kaz handle. I suppose  I could add nose weight to decrease the sensitivity but that is not something I want to do. Any suggestions on this will be welcome.

Chuck

Hi Chuck

I would suggest that you go back to the MNT handle, if the overhang adjustment is all the way back..(this is the way many come).. you can set it out away from your hand 1 or 2 holes . That will add some stick pressure and will help you to take away some of the quickness you feel, only move it away from your hand by one or 2 holes if it is back at the first position

Second if your CG is back a bit, add a small amount of nose weight.  If your plane is that quick with the MNT handle set as close as it can be you either have controls much too fast, or tail heavy condition, Can you change the controls easy?  have you checked the CG location?

Regards
Randy

[Chuck Feldman]

Randy.

Thank you for your reply. I have Adjusted the KMT handle as you suggested. The spacing between the lines is now at 3 1/4 "   I have moved the overhang forward by one hole top and bottom.  I have to say that these small adjustments would seem to be unnoticeable in flight. Perhaps I am in for a surprise. Many of the things I have learned since returning to flying in 2003 have been surprising. I can recall saying that small thinks (differences) can make a big difference. Soon as I fly again I will report the results here.

Chuck

[RandySmith]

Hi Chuck

You said you moved the spacing in to 3 1/4, what was it before?
I would suggest making only 1/8 inch movements, that would be 1/4 inch total and that is huge in adjustments.
Please let us know how it goes

Randy

[Chuck Feldman]

Randy,

It was 1/8 per side that I closed. So yes 1/4". You feel this is a huge move. I hope your right because that would mean the sensitivity would be to slow and I will need to open it up.

 I wonder how we flew in the old days with 3" bellcranks and those big ez-just handles. We also set up the controls per the plans to get 45 degree deflection. Yet I do not remember that we have sensitive airplanes? Did we fly with nose heavy models? Of course back then I and those I flew with where not really good flyers even though we could fly the pattern? Next report will not be for a few days.

[Ted Fancher]

Randy,

It was 1/8 per side that I closed. So yes 1/4". You feel this is a huge move. I hope your right because that would mean the sensitivity would be to slow and I will need to open it up.

 I wonder how we flew in the old days with 3" bellcranks and those big ez-just handles. We also set up the controls per the plans to get 45 degree deflection. Yet I do not remember that we have sensitive airplanes? Did we fly with nose heavy models? Of course back then I and those I flew with where not really good flyers even though we could fly the pattern? Next report will not be for a few days.

Chuck

Chuck,

Gotta remember that highly competitive stunt fliers tend to use what might appear to be “hyperbole” when we discuss the effects of changes to the aerodynamics of our airplanes and/or the control systems that manage them.  What we consider to be “huge” differences might to the casual flier seem no more than a nuisance.  (My good buddy Brett Buck is probably the poster boy for such hyperbole—but for the highly critical and ambitious competitor his descriptions are almost always on they money)

With respect, I’m not sure where you are on that fun/precision spectrum.

Any competitor worth his/her salt refines their equipment to the nth degree.  The reason for doing so is that, by doing so,  the airplane is adapted to the needs of the pilot rather than the pilot having to adapt to the airplane’s idiosyncrasies.  Competition fliers will make what appear to be immeasurable changes to their equipment (especially things like handle neutral, line spacing, flap/elevator ratios and other things that control the manner and rate at which the airplane responds to pilot input) so that the pilot can use what his body tells him/her is the “correct” amount of input and it then translates into the desired response by the airplane.

This is the biggest difference between pilots who find success at the bottom of drums of fuel versus those who find a few tune-up flights prior to a big meet to be a great plenty to get the tricks down pat.  If you know what the shapes look like and your natural inputs to produce the appropriate tracks actually do result in the desired flight tracks, flying becomes pretty darn simple.  Flying gets a lot tougher if you’ve got to use an unnatural amount of input (either too little or too much or too different) to get the desired response.  The only way to get yourself competitive is to re-program your neural-muscular memory banks to those idiosyncrasies.  That requires readapting the body every time you fly a different airplane or lay off flying just one such airplane for any length of time.

That latter approach is a recipe for frustration.

All of this is preamble to stating that what Randy refers to as a “huge” difference from ¼” total change might seem silly to you if your flying goals are to have a good time and not to try to win the Walker Cup.  One goal I isn’t inherently better than the other, but the demands of doing one versus the other are distinctly different.

Let us know what you think of the changes and how you would describe them from your perspective.

Good stuff in this thread.

Ted Fancher

[Chuck Feldman]

Ted,

There is nothing in this thread that I  regard as silly. OK that said, To get information like this is very worthwhile to me. As to my flying skills. They are actually quite good. However you cannot judge this yourself until you fly an experts airplane. I have not had the chance to fly yours or Randy's or Brett's etc so it is not easy for me to judge how well I can fly. I do know this. There are models that are very easy to fly because they behave and I can place them in the proper spots. There are other models that I have flown that are so sensitive I wonder how anyone can fly them with precision. What is your experience in this. Can you fly Brett's models well. Is is more or less very much like yours? How many models that belong to others have you flown and where you able to do good with them?

Chuck

[Shultzie]

Interest pages n' pages about handles that cause crashes n' rashes...
bottom line (maybe?)

"Whut eva floats yer boat or what handles handle your Ukie-dookie'...one truly is only as good as their last gig or flight?

So with that...here is a shot of Pete Peterson's new control handle concept up for what GRABS YA?  

[Ted Fancher]

Ted,

There is nothing in this thread that I  regard as silly. OK that said, To get information like this is very worthwhile to me. As to my flying skills. They are actually quite good. However you cannot judge this yourself until you fly an experts airplane. I have not had the chance to fly yours or Randy's or Brett's etc so it is not easy for me to judge how well I can fly. I do know this. There are models that are very easy to fly because they behave and I can place them in the proper spots. There are other models that I have flown that are so sensitive I wonder how anyone can fly them with precision. What is your experience in this. Can you fly Brett's models well. Is is more or less very much like yours? How many models that belong to others have you flown and where you able to do good with them?

Chuck

Great question, Chuck. Your comment about airplanes that are so sensitive you wonder how anyone could fly them really, really makes the point I’m talking about.  Give yourself enough concentrated stick time and you could probably teach yourself to fly them reasonably well.  Leave it for a couple of months and/or go back to an airplane well suited to you and then return and you’ll have to start burning fuel all over again.  It is, quite literally, self defeating.

I’ve been privileged to fly the airplanes of a number of former and current national and world champions.  Locally, I believe you could take the airplanes (as flown—handle to tail wheel) of Brett Buck, David Fitzgerald, Bob Hunt, Brian Eather and Ted Fancher and assign them at random to each other and after two or three flights all four of us would be flying them at close to the best we ever could no matter how many gallons of fuel we burned.  The predictability and rate of response for a given control input is nearly identical.

I’ve also flown Paul Walker’s airplanes several times over the years and--with  the Impacts and its derivatives--I’d have to make very small corrections to the neutral setting and the sensitivity of response to obtain that same level of comfort.  They are flyable for me but to make them into the repeatable type of “pick up and fly” after a long layoff  deal I’d have to make those (small) changes. Paul, by the way, is one of the few truly special guys who combines absolutely demanding perfection of the systems with an inspirational level of commitment to practice.  He’s flown more flights in the last week than I have in the past year.  As a result, he’ll beat me almost every time but I’ll never be far behind.

The B-17 had little of that problem.  It would have taken a bit more stick time to get used to the mass involved but the linearity of response inside and outside was very comfortable from the get-go. “That” airplane (both of them, although I only flew the first) was a monumental achievement.

Unlike Bobby Hunt and Bart Klapinski and, I’m sure others, I’m not a great natural pilot who can adapt to big response differences or neutral settings in a few laps.  I have as many times as not with other people’s airplanes simply stopped flying maneuvers because I was uncomfortable tempting fate with somebody else’s airplane.  This is true even with airplanes I’ve judged doing pretty reasonable patterns earlier the same day.  In each case it is my belief that what success the pilot had came as a result of adjusting his body to meet the needs of the airplane—a mistake, in my opinion, that I addressed in the earlier post.

Ted

[Shultzie]

Wow Ted....
I don't mean to be mean spirited and truly take these pages and pages of posts about "tis' handle OR dat' verses that HANDLE..etc etc...LIGHTLY!!

HOWEVER I DISCOUNT ANY HANDLE WITH A HUGE DOSE AND A BILLONGRAINS OF SALT!!!
YEARS AGO...(humm? My how time flies)......
In those days...I had virtually made it a PRETTY HIGH RISK HABIT after the competition flying was over to RESPECTFULLY REQUEST A  FREEBEE' TEST FLIGHT OFF MY PEEEEEEER'S  N' FELLOW COMPETITIORS STUNTERS, ESPECIALLY THE MODELS THAT TOOK THE HARDWARE AWAY FROM ME.
Also that came with some equally poor choices in returning that same favor to those who were either foolishly brazenly bold enough to ask  me for a FREE BEE FLIGHT on my models in return.

In the process....guess I was extremely lucky to come away with my models mostly intact or no damage at all and one item so over-looked in those tests was the CONTROL HANDLES..
Thinkin back...
 FACT!!!MOST of those beautiful models, no matter how beautifully their builder-owners flew them, I think I can say...VIRTUALLY ALL OF THOSE HANDLES...were not adjusted to my own "LAME BRAIN TO  MY OWN LEARNED MUSCLE MEMORY THANG'-THING~?

Even the slightest out of adjustment...starting at handle, or the  matched (or miss matche) line lengths, weight of those lines..the dia. etc..leadout sweep, outboard weight, CG locations...etc etc etc...Make such a huge "IMPACT" in how we perceive how much we like or dislike how the stunt model out there on the end of the line flies?

 Bottom line again: Does it all make sense that it  ALL START WITH THAT ONE ALL IMPORTANT THING!
 THAT OL' HUMAN EYE-TO-BRAIN-TO MUSCLE MEMORY'S DIFFICULT JOB...SIMPLY TO TEACH AND  PROGRAM  OUR BODIES HOW TO HANDLE THAT DIGGITY DARN HANDLE FROM HEAVEN OR THE PITS OF HELL IN A HANDBASKET![/!!b]

End of rant...and main lesson learned:
If you see old Shultzie approaching your purty brand new model for a test ride...AND JUST SAY! NO!   VD~HELL NO!!!

"HEY TED! HOW BOUT A TEST RIDE ON THAT NEW STUNT MACHINE OF YERS?"


This post will self destruct in 10 minutes...(much longer than my last  fatal flight...that's for certain.

[john e. holliday]

Thanks Schultzie.  My son and I fly identical handles, but, have different settings. I am re-learning with the grand kids that their nuetral is different than mine and each of them is different than the other.  DOC Holliday

[Ted Fancher]

Thanks Schultzie.  My son and I fly identical handles, but, have different settings. I am re-learning with the grand kids that their nuetral is different than mine and each of them is different than the other.  DOC Holliday

Hi Doc,

It would never occur to me to suggest that anybody has to do the things I suggest are valuable.  This is a hobby--one that I've enjoyed for a lifetime--but a hobby nonetheless.  I've been fortunate to have achieved some success (competitively, which isn't everybody's thing) and enjoy sharing what I think I've learned over the years.  I personally believe that there is value in what I suggest is important but don't think for a minute I'm going to change the minds of people that have found opposing routes to enjoying the hobby.

I think that's the beauty of the forums (for which I thank guys like Sparky and Len); that guys can easily share their points of view with literally hundreds of others around the world from the comfort of their desk at home.  Readers are perfectly free to pick and choose those points of view they believe have value.  I am naturally predisposed to trying to prove (in an amicable fashion) the value of my point of view.  Again, each reader can make up his or her own mind whether those thoughts have any value at all.

I believe in what I suggest and make every reasonable effort to try to convince people to try what I think might be helpful.  For instance, I don't think it's a coincidence that I could pick up the airplanes of guys like David, Brett, Bob Hunt, Brian Eather and (almost) Paul Walker and fly them at very high levels of performance without having to adapt to the way they are set up.  I simply think that it is pertinent to consider the similarities of demonstrably successful equipment (and their adjustment).

I'm glad that your grandkids and you are having a great time and learning about what works for each of you.  If they stick with the event and are someday demonstrably expert in their efforts I will happily read with great interest what it is they believe made their approach successful.  It isn't a zero sum game.  We can all almost certainly learn from each other.

Ted

[RandySmith]

Randy,

It was 1/8 per side that I closed. So yes 1/4". You feel this is a huge move. I hope your right because that would mean the sensitivity would be to slow and I will need to open it up.

 I wonder how we flew in the old days with 3" bellcranks and those big ez-just handles. We also set up the controls per the plans to get 45 degree deflection. Yet I do not remember that we have sensitive airplanes? Did we fly with nose heavy models? Of course back then I and those I flew with where not really good flyers even though we could fly the pattern? Next report will not be for a few days.

Hi Chuck

I think you will find the 1/4 inch spacing movement a big help in going the direction you want to go it, The mere fact that you can fine tune the handle after that is going to be a tremendous help to you in trimming.
About the large Hot Rock, I had them but I could never get use to them or use them at all, The small one was Ok, but the large one made my ships so fast they were impossible for me to fly .

You will find after these handle exercises, that being able to trim the handle is nearly as important as trimming the airplane, and an adjustable handle will effectively be the  control system trim in your  planes... This is critical if you want to get the most out of your flying and your stuntships, Plus it make flying your planes so much more enjoyable

Regards
Randy

[Chuck Feldman]

Hi Randy   

I am on a short schedule but I did fly this morning. I will not be able to fly again until Oct 7th because we are going on a trip to PA.   OK I only had time for one flight and I used the Straight (kaz) handle adjusted with more overhang and minimum line spacing. All this to reduce the sensitivity. It worked! While still a touch sensitive I flew the complete pattern. The model tracked very easily and the corners where very good. I flew high for safety of course. I know that after three more flights I will feel very comfortable with this handle. I did notice some wobble in the top of the hour glass so I did another one. It is doing something up there that isn't right? (more on this later) I also set the neutral on the handle mechanically. Handle 90 degrees with the controls level. This proved to be uncomfortable for me. So I shortened the up line for the next flight to make it feel more natural to me. When I got home I hung the model by the lead outs to see if the nose pointed downward. I did not. It appeared to be straight ahead. (leadouts are all the way forward) So I moved the leadouts back and now the nose hangs slightly down. So next time out I will be testing two changes. Handle neutral and leadouts moved back.  I am getting lots of help with this and I do appreciate it.

Chuck

[Chuck Feldman]

Having returned from a short vacation trip I went out to fly today. It is still very hot down here in Florida so I did not fly a lot but here are the results. Previous adjustments where. Moved neutral on the handle and moved the wing tip lead outs back. 

1st handle. It works fine but if you vertical guys used it it would be in the up position and you would have to apply down to fly it. BUT IT WORKS PERFECT FOR ME. 

2ND leadout move, line tension went up wallowing around in the hour glass went away. But now the wing flops about (hinges) also I can see both wheels (all of the inside one and about 20% of the outside one)  I don't like that. I removed some wingtip weight (has three large bricks in there took one out) This seems to have fixed the hinging. Actually I think it just improved it, it still flops around some. Line tension remained good. I flew two patterns and on the second flight brought the bottoms down near proper altitude. The model is still sensitive and there is no longer anyway to bring the lines closer together on this handle. I am going to add a little nose weight to calm it down. The grass we fly from is being kept higher so I will add bigger wheels to get some weight on the nose and make the ground handling better.

 The tip weights, I will remove them and weight them and replace them with smaller size leads to get a finer trim. I could increase the overhang on the handle by one more hole. Will that make the sensitivity less? THANKS GUYS CHUCK

[RandySmith]

Having returned from a short vacation trip I went out to fly today. It is still very hot down here in Florida so I did not fly a lot but here are the results. Previous adjustments where. Moved neutral on the handle and moved the wing tip lead outs back. 

1st handle. It works fine but if you vertical guys used it it would be in the up position and you would have to apply down to fly it. BUT IT WORKS PERFECT FOR ME. 

2ND leadout move, line tension went up wallowing around in the hour glass went away. But now the wing flops about (hinges) also I can see both wheels (all of the inside one and about 20% of the outside one)  I don't like that. I removed some wingtip weight (has three large bricks in there took one out) This seems to have fixed the hinging. Actually I think it just improved it, it still flops around some. Line tension remained good. I flew two patterns and on the second flight brought the bottoms down near proper altitude. The model is still sensitive and there is no longer anyway to bring the lines closer together on this handle. I am going to add a little nose weight to calm it down. The grass we fly from is being kept higher so I will add bigger wheels to get some weight on the nose and make the ground handling better.

 The tip weights, I will remove them and weight them and replace them with smaller size leads to get a finer trim. I could increase the overhang on the handle by one more hole. Will that make the sensitivity less? THANKS GUYS CHUCK

Hi Chuck

Depending on where the CG is, I would try adding a little nose weight..before you add anymore to the overhang, try the nose weight first, I think you are pretty close now, I would also try removing a small amount of the tip weight still in there and fly it again
Try 1 thing at a time, then fly a time or 2 before you make another adjustment
Try also to look at the wing when in square corners see if the outboard tip is being pushed up or down
Randy

[Chuck Feldman]

Latest flights,

Today after changing the wheels to heavier and larger size the plane now flies great. Corners are still sharp and the sensitivity is in my range. There may be nothing further to do?

OK now that I can fly with a straight type handle I am going to try to duplicate these settings in my Biased handle. My Kaz handle that I am currently using is not 90 degrees for neutral. But it is very comfortable this way for me. I believe the handle is probably very close to the Bob Hunt model of years past. Of course the line spacing is much less on the Kaz handle.

So then after all this what is the point of it? I am not sure? In order to feel comfortable I still had to change the handle from being 90 degrees for neutral. I suppose in the old days I adjusted the EZ-Just to do the same thing. Didn't we all set it to what was comfortable for each of us?

Causing the plane to crash. If the handle was set to a place where it was comfortable to fly level than I would say the the Bias did not cause the crash. Funny now I went through this period with a new model and handle that I had a dangerous situation that could well of caused a crash. But it was not the handle. It was the sticking controls on the elevator that brought out the danger. Today that same plane with the sticking removed is a pussy cat. Very easy to fly.


Chuck

[RandySmith]

"So then after all this what is the point of it? I am not sure? In order to feel comfortable I still had to change the handle from being 90 degrees for neutral. I suppose in the old days I adjusted the EZ-Just to do the same thing. Didn't we all set it to what was comfortable for each of us? "

Hi Chuck

The point for many people is..You now have a setup that does NOT have overhang bias, and you have NOW a completely adjustable handle, in terms of independent up\down overhang bias, or just overhang, up\down adjustments, independent on each leg of the up or down. Now I would try to start getting the handle closer to the 90 degree setting. You can get used to it and it will make you able to fly better.
With a handle that has one leg longer than the other and is NOT adjustable you will NEVER have consistany in the winds. I cannot stress enough how important it is to have a setup that turns close to the same when the stuntship gets loaded up by high winds, You can never have that with a much longer leg (up or down) on the handle.
Overhang bias, with a longer leg on either can, will, and does cause crashed airplanes, I have seen this many times, It also cause flyers to bail out of patterns and not fly because of the inconsistent and un-equal turns
Regards
Randy

[Chuck Feldman]

Hi Randy,

Thank you for pointing this out to me. Based on what you have said I am not going to attempt to get the same result from my overhang handle. I will start adjusting  to 90 degrees as you said.

Down here in Florida on most every morning we are flying in dead calm air. It is dangerous and we do learn to walk backwards because of it.

Contests are another story. There is always wind, good and bad at contests.

This thread has proved to be a very good experience for me and I have learned from it.

Thank you for your Patience with me.

Chuck

[RandySmith]

Bump for Michael

[Steve Hines]

Dont know so much about the handle's, but both of the inverted crashes I seen this year the pilot  ran out of down because they lifted there arm up when they got close to the ground. Some of us were talking about this, it work good when upright. Is it just something most of us can't do inverted is push the arm down at the ground?

[Bill Little]

On handle adjustments....... a couple years ago, I was having a bit of a problem with the outsides turning quicker than the insides.  It was at a contest and Randy was helping me out so he can back it up.  I have been flying a long time with my elbow relaxed which automatically creates a vertical hand at neutral (like I said in another post, try it, you will see that there is no forward tilt of the hand if the arm is bent).  I was actually tilting my hand "BACK" at neutral ad didn't realize it.  Randy told my son to go do something to my handle which I not told about.  Next time I flew the model, the outsides and insides were almost exactly the same, a great improvement.  Aaron had adjusted the handle neutral slightly by shortening the up line so that I had to move my hand back to a pure vertical position.

Again, the way you hold your arm will be a major factor in handle tilt.  If you fly with a very straight arm, the more forward tilt your hand has.  The more you relax your elbow, the closer the hand comes to the body and subsequently the more vertical the hand's axis becomes (that's a given for everyone who doesn't have a physical deformity of huge proportions) . In this position ( a bent elbow and a forward tilted handle), "down control" movement becomes extremely difficult if the handle is tilted forward.  Try it (but not hooked up to a flying model! LOL!!)

Big Bear

[Michael Massey]

Thanks for the bump Randy.

[Joe Mig]

It could also be the line spacing was set too narrow on the biased handle..  

This is the one I was looking before I posted it.  I had crashed just recently with a bias handle it just seemed the plane was not reacting.     So after a fix the next flight I moved the spacing apart and all was well.   

[phil c]

Han, as Randy pointed out, the handle could very well be the source of sluggishness on outside turns.  It can easily be enough to cause the crash you had, particularly since you had limited flying on a new plane and didn't have a good feel for it.

The main reason I like having the axis of the hand grip perpendicular to the lines is that it makes it very easy to see that everything is hooked up properly from one flight to the next.  No wiggling the handle and asking someone if the controls are in neutral.  Put a mark on the plane, after it is all trimmed out, to show the elevator neutral when the handgrip is vertical.  You can see it instantly.  A strategically placed trim line in the paint work does a good job.

Nobody flies with their hand perfectly centered on their chest.  Everybody does a fair amount of arm waving during a pattern.  That itself changes the angles between the lines and planes an adds control input.  So the arguments for putting some angle between the hand grip and the line attach points doesn't hold much water.  Maybe for ratracers or if a person has a real physical problem with wrist movement,  but aotherwise, once you learn the feel of how the plane flies with a nice, squared up control system with no built in biases things will get much easier.

The rest of the control system has to be set up to make all the angles between the various pushrods as close to 90 deg. as possible.  This minimizes the non-linearity of the controls.  As Larry Renger and a couple others have shown, it is pretty much impossible to make the controls perfectly linear, but getting all the angles close to 90 deg. works pretty well.  Make sure there is a way to adjust the amount the flaps move relative to the elevator.

Make the lines as absolutely close to the same length as you can.  I do this by making up one end of each line and staking them to the ground. Grab both lines and tug hard on them and wrap them around a small screw driver to set where the second loop will be and go to town with your favorite terminations.  Both lines need to be under similar tension when you do this to keep them close.

Set the internal controls so the bell crank is parallel to the axis of the line attachments at the handle.  On many planes the BC is set forward of where the leadouts exit the wing tip so it may have to be angled a bit.  Mounting the bellcrank further back makes it easier to get everything square.  Otherwise you may have to reposition the pushrod hole in the bellcrank.

After all that, you can get into fine tuning the handle as part of the trimming process.  Randy is right.  As little as 1/8 in in line spacing or the overhang to the line attach point can make a noticeable difference.  I recently spent some time with an old plane.  Narrowing the line spacing 1/4 in. and moving the down line attach point out 1/4 in. changed it from a jumpy plane that took total concentration to fly smooth to one that still turned on dime but exactly the same in both directions and eliminated all the jumpiness in corners.

[Chuck Feldman]

FYI;  I now use a straight handle.  One day I found myself nearly crashing with the biased handle. (outside loop)

Chuck Feldman

[Perry Rose]

Having just lost my Vector in a similar situation as noted in the first post and almost losing a Primary Force in the exact situation I found the elevator control horns loose. The Vector's broke out of the plywood end mounts and the Force due to the balsa weakening.

[phil c]

Having just lost my Vector in a similar situation as noted in the first post and almost losing a Primary Force in the exact situation I found the elevator control horns loose. The Vector's broke out of the plywood end mounts and the Force due to the balsa weakening.

Not trying to be nasty  Perry, but broken controls have a bias all their own- usually straight down!

[RandySmith]

another crash just happened because of handle overhang bias, so I bumped the thread for reading by an interested party


Randy

[Joseph Lijoi]

Interesting thought...

If I'm not mistaken, back in the 70's Bobby Hunt won the NATS and worlds with a Hunt Handle which is both biased, has what a 2 inch overhang and on top of that is a cable handle. What has changed, are the patterns that much better now with straight hard point handles? Would the pattern flown by Bobby at the 76 NATS get beat by Paul Walker with a straight handle. What kind of handle does the current NATS champ use?

I don't know the answers just thought it interesting to note that some pretty impressive patterns have been flown with all kinds of different handles.

Based on what I've read I doubt that Hunt does anything like he did in the 70's.  No wife, no kids, and very nose heavy ships.

[RandySmith]

I belive Bob Hunt is using the straight MNT handles he bought from me, they are excellent

Randy