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Offline Motorman

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« on: November 26, 2021, 10:56:00 AM »
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« Last Edit: December 04, 2021, 08:44:09 AM by Motorman »

Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Glow Plugs Per Engine
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2021, 11:30:45 AM »
I change plugs maybe once a year on the PA 75
Matt Colan

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Glow Plugs Per Engine
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2021, 01:39:14 PM »
Taking about OS Max LA 46 and 25 engines. Hazard a guess.


Motorman 8)

    I know this is a setup, but - I have worn out one OS engine over the years. That was a a 40VF. I would guess I had maybe 10 different glow plugs in it, but most of those where changed for either experimental purposes, and one per year for each of the 6 NATs I attended using that engine. It was around 2000 flights, which is a lot more than most people have flown, total. I can't recall ever blowing one, or burning one out.

     I have never replaced a plug in any of the 20/25FP or 25LA engines, but most of them don't have that much time on them. The very first may be approaching 1000 flights, and some test runs (including running it on gasoline an wesson oil for one of my friend's kids science projects), still runs as new.

   When I was running the PA61, I was replacing the plug about every 20=25 flights, until I switched to Powermaster, since then I have had one failure (blown/cracked element) on the RO-Jett, for no obvious reason.

   Brett

Offline MikeyPratt

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Re: Glow Plugs Per Engine
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2021, 02:13:54 PM »
I have to agree with Bret, plugs going out is not a problem.  Most of my engines PA 40 51, 61, OPS 40, HP 40 and my Fox’s and OS engines were all good on plugs, they always lasted for years.  All of mine were ran on Sig Fuel with the Fox’s were on all caster but the rest were on 50/50 caster & syn fuel.

The plugs I liked best were the Sonic Tronics plug #300 and the Fireball plugs, again I did try the 4-stroke and they were good for long life also, they ran like the other plugs.  If you are having problems with plugs not lasting add a head shim if needed or back off on the Nitro.  My favorite Nitro contest was 7.5% Nitro by mixing a gallon of 5% and a gallon of 10% = 7.5% Nitro very good all around blend.

Later,
Mikey

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: Glow Plugs Per Engine
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2021, 03:05:51 PM »
I'm not sure I could put a count per engine.  There are variables even among a batch of like-plugs as to manufacturing tolerances and workmanship.  A plug that will glow might also get the coil pounded back into the cavity or develop leaks at the seal.  On average I probably change plugs maybe three times a season or maybe around the five gallon mark in fuel.  If I have a run I'm not sure of I will often change the plug just to eliminate one possible problem,  whether it was actually the plug or not.  I also might change it just prior to a contest as insurance against any issue during an official.  I will usually keep the plugs I pull out and use them in other engines in the collection or airplanes I don't compete with.  With plugs on the endangered species list right now ( the high for rhodium last spring was just shy of $30,000 per ounce-now a black friday price of $11,300.00 per ounce) I have been grabbing what I can find for my stash.  I am also the supplier for several of my family members who fly so I buy with that in mind as well.  So my answer is STOCK UP.  We may yet be going back to spark ignition........with today's electronics that's entirely possible and fairly practical.  The fuel cost would be A TON cheaper too.

Dave
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Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: Glow Plugs Per Engine
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2021, 08:55:33 PM »
My Fox 36X BB scrambles a plug on every flight. That’s the price to pay to hit 129mph Chugging 65% Nitro with my vintage combat models. The sound the engine makes running all that nitro alone is worth it. So far no signs of any engine wear.
Al

Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: Glow Plugs Per Engine
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2021, 07:02:50 PM »
Have you tried colder plugs or less compression ratio? We used to blow a #1702 every flight with the Cox TD on Ramm speed fuel until we learned to put more washers in there. They were only a dollar back then.

Motorman 8)
I bought some Nova Rossi #1 plugs from planet Hobby for my La 25 speed limit combat, I though they where garbage because they did not needle well like I was using a real cold plug. So I tried them with the Fox36x BB running my high nitro mix and wow the engine wants to rotate the earth. I haven’t played with the tune up since I found this one. Using 10% doesn’t hurt the plugs. I have a few other tune ups to try when I get around to it, there is definitely more power to be made out of the engine. I can feel it at time during the run.
Al

Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: blank
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2021, 03:46:17 PM »
blank
What's with Blanking all your posts?
Al

Offline Jay

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Re: blank
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2021, 04:37:58 PM »
Has anyone checked Amazon's site?
Not sure how good their plugs are but in quantity they are not too bad.

Jay
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Offline Crist Rigotti

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Re: blank
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2021, 05:01:49 PM »
I haven't blown out a glow plug for at least 11 years now!
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: blank
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2021, 05:31:55 PM »
I haven't blown out a glow plug for at least 11 years now!

I went to a HDWE store and purchase what I thought was a 1.5 volt battery, turned out it was a 6 volt battery.

Burned out 3 plugs in minutes. Sometimes you can repair them with a pin.
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
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Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: blank
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2021, 04:38:08 AM »
Burned out 3 plugs in minutes. Sometimes you can repair them with a pin.

Not really; You may manage to make it glow, but a soon as the engine fires, it breaks again. But OK fix for static models, of course. L

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: blank
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2021, 07:53:06 AM »
Not really; You may manage to make it glow, but a soon as the engine fires, it breaks again. But OK fix for static models, of course. L

There are modelers who make a living building Museum quality "static" mode who have absolutely no interest in CL or R/C flying.

Interesting you have my static models on your mind, enough to mention them in a Post.

Thank you

CB
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
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Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: blank
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2021, 12:32:23 PM »
There are modelers who make a living building Museum quality "static" mode who have absolutely no interest in CL or R/C flying.

Interesting you have my static models on your mind, enough to mention them in a Post.

Thank you

CB

 Maybe, but this forum is not for those, I guess. I don't even know if the models you show here fall into that category. I mean they certainly are static, but I wouldn't say museum quality.
 But instead, you stick your nose into a discussion (About glow plugs this time) where you have nothing to give but wrong information. Sometimes it's just better to be quiet. L

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: blank
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2021, 01:48:47 PM »
Maybe, but this forum is not for those, I guess. I don't even know if the models you show here fall into that category. I mean they certainly are static, but I wouldn't say museum quality.
 But instead, you stick your nose into a discussion (About glow plugs this time) where you have nothing to give but wrong information. Sometimes it's just better to be quiet. L

Maybe you should learn to be quiet.
Quote
Maybe, but this forum is not for those, I guess.
Are you deciding who or who shouldn't participate in this Forum? I believe you are with that statement.

BTW. I see misinformation in this Forum said by many all the time. Go after them. More serious than glow plug coils. In some cases, deliberate lies.

Maybe you don't pin glow plugs as well as others?

I never said I build museum quality" models.
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: blank
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2021, 03:30:41 PM »
There are modelers who make a living building Museum quality "static" mode who have absolutely no interest in CL or R/C flying.

   Yes, but apparently none of them post here regularly.   Nor would I want to take their opinions about glow plugs.

     Brett

p.s. perhaps this museum?

https://www.facebook.com/MuseumoftheBizarre/
« Last Edit: December 05, 2021, 04:53:24 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Trostle

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Re: blank
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2021, 06:24:49 PM »
Maybe you should learn to be quiet.  Are you deciding who or who shouldn't participate in this Forum? I believe you are with that statement.

BTW. I see misinformation in this Forum said by many all the time. Go after them. More serious than glow plug coils. In some cases, deliberate lies.

Maybe you don't pin glow plugs as well as others?

I never said I build museum quality" models.

Charles,

You are so wrong on so many counts.

Lauri Malila is one of the finest craftsmen I have seen when it comes to building control line airplanes.  He is an expert machinist as is shown by his many explanations/demonstrations of the engines he builds. 

You probably do not know how or understand the reason why, but you should apologize.

Keith

Offline Mark wood

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Re: blank
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2021, 06:42:02 PM »
Seems like it's time to pull the plug on this one.
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
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Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: blank
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2021, 07:22:28 PM »
Seems like it's time to pull the plug on this one.

Confucius say: Don't argue with a fool; people might know which one is the fool.

 LL~ LL~ LL~

Jerry.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: blank
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2021, 08:02:54 PM »
BTW. I see misinformation in this Forum said by many all the time. Go after them. More serious than glow plug coils. In some cases, deliberate lies.

     Really? Care to point out a particularly egregious example? Or are you just mouthing off again?

     Brett

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: blank
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2021, 11:25:18 PM »
 
Seems like it's time to pull the plug on this one.
y1
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Glow Plugs Per Engine
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2021, 12:48:31 PM »
I bought some Nova Rossi #1 plugs from planet Hobby for my La 25 speed limit combat, I though they where garbage because they did not needle well like I was using a real cold plug. So I tried them with the Fox36x BB running my high nitro mix and wow the engine wants to rotate the earth. I haven’t played with the tune up since I found this one. Using 10% doesn’t hurt the plugs. I have a few other tune ups to try when I get around to it, there is definitely more power to be made out of the engine. I can feel it at time during the run.


     I am not entirely sure what the relationship between Rossi (original) and Nova Rossi/New Rossi might be, but one hard and fast rule I have is to *never ever use Rossi plugs in a stunt engine*. Ted found this out the hard way, crashing his airplane the morning of the Walker Flyoff due to the "unexplained flameout* problem. I pooh-poohed it, then, running a Rossi Hot, I just touched the needle and it flamed out, just like flipping a switch. Started right back up, walking to the handle - same thing. Later I tried a bunch of them and while they seemed to slightly increase the power/allow the engine to run just a touch richer, they would flame out for no apparent reason time after time. Every Rossi plug I tried, from "Extra Hot, use in motori 2,5 cc or less only!" to Cold, had the same sort of problem (with the colds also greatly reducing the power). Put in a Fox RC Long or Hose-Nose, it didn't run that great, but at least it kept running.

   This was with an ST46, but the same thing happened in testing with the 40/46VF, and it can happen any time with no warning, which is frequently fatal.

     Brett

Offline Dwayne Donnelly

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Re: blank
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2021, 03:48:22 PM »
Have you all tried Traxxas plugs.  I found them to be pretty good.  They  last a long time in a car engine turning over 20K.  I used them in my RC planes and get the same good result.   

The Fox 1.5v long with idle bar is probably the best, but MECOA is pricing them out of reality.   The Traxxas are still reasonably priced.

Wow $21.00m each!! I had no idea.  ??? HB~>
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: blank
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2021, 06:16:57 PM »
And electric just keeps getting cheaper.... #^

I'm thinking the film can full of new plugs I have is becoming very valuable.
Life is good AMA 1488
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: blank
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2021, 06:34:31 PM »
What's with Blanking all your posts?
Al

Yeah, what up with that? If I had enough clout, it would never happen again, if you know what I mean.  HB~>

Back to the subject, which I have to deduce is something about burning out glowplugs. 1) If your crankpin is rubbing on the backplate or crank web is rubbing the casting, sending aluminum powder through the engine, burning a glowplug on every flight is a signal. I've had both happen, first with an OS .35 Max III with a fubar case casting, and later with a  K&B Series 61/64 trying to shed its pressed-in crankpin.

2) I'm shocked that anybody would consider a Fox glowplug a good product. I've been using Thunderbolt glowplugs since the late '90's and only recall having one fail...it didn't work for the first flight in Spring, which can apparently happen. Otherwise, I've given Thunderbolt glowplugs to guys having trouble with their engine, and ALWAYS cured the problem. I like the idlebar in the OS LA engine IF the OS glowplug fails. I've used both the idle bar and the old 4-cycle Thunderbolt in the Magnum XLS .36, OS .46VF AAC and PA .51.   D>K  Steve 
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In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: blank
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2021, 12:49:13 AM »
2) I'm shocked that anybody would consider a Fox glowplug a good product.

   I have had OK luck with Fox plugs when I found a good one. Both the RC Long and the "Hose Nose" 4-stroke plug. The problem was that the yield was very low, around half of them were good, the others had obvious defects like loose electrodes, crushed coils, coils far off center, excess flash around the (machined-in) idle bar, and any of that made them not work properly. A properly-sealed plug with the coil in the middle worked as well as anything else.

   But, my yield on Thunderbolt, Glow-Devil, K&B, McCoy, OS, Enya, etc has been pretty much 100%. Some of them were not the proper heat range or had a bit less power in particular engines and setups,  but I never had one that was outright defective. When the Fox was half the price, OK, but not at premium prices.

   Once I got off of SIG fuel, I have had nearly no glow plug issues at all, aside from the one example above, I can't think of ever replacing one for burning out or losing power.

     Brett

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: blank
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2021, 04:05:55 PM »
I have used many glow plugs people have thrown on the ground.   I soak them in carburetor cleaner for a long time.  Then I rinse them off throughly and blow off with air pressure.  After this I soak them in Iacquer thinner and blow them off.   I then test them.  About 95 percent are usable again.   I do About 20 at a time. 

Cleaning plugs is something you guys should investigate.   My way of cleaning is not only possible way.   You could use crock pot and antifreeze or ultrasonic and soap.   I haven't bought a new plug in over 10 years.

Interesting information! I doubt I'll ever use this idea, but only because nobody I know would throw glowplugs on the ground, even if suspected to be NFG. I tend to put in a fresh one every Spring, and put the old one on the rollaway in the shop. If they're "good" (VOM tested), I use them to test my ignitors after charging.   H^^ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Mark wood

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Re: blank
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2021, 06:16:26 PM »
I have used many glow plugs people have thrown on the ground.   I soak them in carburetor cleaner for a long time.  Then I rinse them off throughly and blow off with air pressure.  After this I soak them in Iacquer thinner and blow them off.   I then test them.  About 95 percent are usable again.   I do About 20 at a time. 

Cleaning plugs is something you guys should investigate.   My way of cleaning is not only possible way.   You could use crock pot and antifreeze or ultrasonic and soap.   I haven't bought a new plug in over 10 years.

This is an interesting idea I never considered. Usually with engines I run the plug blows apart and isn't repairable. However a stunt engine runs for a very long time and the plugs element eventually oxidizes to the point of no longer being a good catalyst. I'm not sure exactly what the platinum compound  is on the surface of the element but etching that away would certainly certainly restore the element to some degree. I'm going to guess the carburetor cleaner you use is chlorinated (hydrochloric acid) which etched the wire.  I'd think that lemon juice (citric acid) or Leme Shine (also Citric acid) would also do a good job of doing this as well, maybe even better. Simple green also comes to mind as potential etching agent. 

The glycol wouldn't do much other than getting scum off. What has to happen is the oxide layer has to be removed.

Most people fully miss the boat on how a glow plug works. The platinum in the element reacts with the methanol and glows red hot in the presence of the vapor. While the heat of combustion plays a minor roll it's the catalytic reaction that is the ignition source. I remember this because my dad had a methanol cigarette lighter. It had a piece of wire and a cotton pad. When you brought the wire close to the methanol soaked pad the wire lit up and ignited the fuel.

Over time the element oxidizes and this is what causes the plug plug to fail. The symptom is the engine will start with the driver in place and the engine quits when the driver is removed. Reason being is that the oxide coating is preventing the catalytic reaction from occurring. Pull the plug out and if the element is whiteish in color it is no longer useable. This can provide a guide as to how long to etch a plug for recovery. Use water (distilled preferably) and lemon juice to raise the Ph a couple points and soak the plug removing occasionally to check the element. When it turns silver again it should be good. I don't actually know if this will work but it should, it's simply a matter of finding the correct Ph and maybe another etchant. We use a similar process to clean tarnished brass in our shop.


I found this video demonstrating the catalytic reaction. It's actually a really good one.


Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: blank
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2021, 06:32:43 PM »
Steve, I never throw plugs on the ground either.   I don't find them much anymore due to glow engines not being used much anymore.  I was able to ID some of them especially the fox, Enya, kb and Super Tigre.   I always look for stuff on the ground.  2 weeks ago I found a guys micro screwdrivers.  (And returned them)

Later I will post a picture of what I found.   They all work.

Wow! That there is a heap of glowplugs. You should put them on eBay, saying that you have no knowledge of what these things are, or if they've been previously used. Should probably make them up in baggies of 6 or 13 and suggest a starting price of $50/6 or $100/13. You could retire!  LL~ LL~ LL~ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Mark wood

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Re: blank
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2021, 06:33:32 PM »
Sir, you are exactly correct and most are gummed up with castor oil.  Vinegar will clean metal too.  I soak glow plugs and rusted crank shafts in Vinegar. 

Note.  For vinegar to work all the oil must be removed first.  Carburetor cleaner is what I  use.

I looked up the etchants for Platinum which Citric and phosphoric acids are cited. I'm not sure about acetic acid but it likely will also depending on what the platinum is binding with which I assume is oxygen . I'm not a chemist. Seems we learned something good today.
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Mark wood

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Re: blank
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2021, 07:06:15 PM »
Look it works again.

Unfortunately glowing only shows it has continuity. If the wire is too oxidized it won't keep the engine running when the driver is removed which is likely why it was left on the ground. It's chemistry that makes the engine run not electricity.
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: blank
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2021, 07:38:37 PM »
Mark, I can tell you they throw them away because they are not glowing.  This can be determined by testing as I did or the engine shuts off when the igniter is removed.   As I said most work after cleaning and my success rate makes the effort worth it.  How about we play this out.  When I fly Saturday I will use it and report the result.   I use ONLY pre-owned plugs in 24 rc planes,  3 cl planes, 3 helis and 4 rc cars.   I agree not all will work, but neither do brand new ones.

    I'll be following this with interest. The type of wire in the coil has a roll to play? It is my understanding that the use of platinum stopped when other, cheaper substitutes were found. Now those substitutes have become valuable!!  There used to be a guy on the forums named Iskandar Taib, who was living here in the US while attending college. I think Isky was a combat flyer. He then moved back to the far east where he was from ( I forget the country) but was still active for a while on Stuka Stunt and others. He was interested in glow plug technology and history and was asking for sample of old glow plugs to examine and test the coils to see what they were made of. I never heard of his results, or if he even got much response but it would sure fit in here!!  No one has mentioned the "accidental start" with no battery attached yet. I have had that happen more to me this year than I can remember in the last 40 years!!

   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Mark wood

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Re: blank
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2021, 06:15:53 AM »
    I'll be following this with interest. The type of wire in the coil has a roll to play? It is my understanding that the use of platinum stopped when other, cheaper substitutes were found. Now those substitutes have become valuable!!  There used to be a guy on the forums named Iskandar Taib, who was living here in the US while attending college. I think Isky was a combat flyer. He then moved back to the far east where he was from ( I forget the country) but was still active for a while on Stuka Stunt and others. He was interested in glow plug technology and history and was asking for sample of old glow plugs to examine and test the coils to see what they were made of. I never heard of his results, or if he even got much response but it would sure fit in here!!  No one has mentioned the "accidental start" with no battery attached yet. I have had that happen more to me this year than I can remember in the last 40 years!!

   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

Yes the type of wire is actually critical to the ignition process. The platinum acts as a catalyst in the process of oxidization of methanol and some other combustible vapors. Most people, 99.999% of model airplane flyers don't understand this. When you have errant engine operations its a result of a compound of platinum forming on the surface of the platinum wire which causes the loss of that catalytic reaction. The engine won't idle reliably or shuts off or doesn't make good power... Replacing the plug fixes the issue. This catalytic reaction is also why there is a practical maximum limit as to how much nitro you can run in the engine. There eventually isn't enough methanol to cause the glow plug to light.

Rhodium alloyed with platinum also works from my understanding as well. I don't know about other alloys as I haven't ever been that interested in it. I just had a super smart mentor Norm Drazy, when I was growing up. There are many examples of this such as copper and acetone. And much research as this is one of the processes in fuel cells also.

The likely reason Air Minister is seeing any "repair" is that the carburetor cleaner is chlorinated which has hydrochloric acid in it and that acts as an etchant cutting that surface layer off of the wire exposing "fresh" platinum. When I looked in to etchants for platinum, citric acid and phosphoric acid came up which is why I suggest lemon juice or simple green. Neither of which I would suggest specifically as a degreaser but both specifically targeted at the platinum.

We used Lemme shine to clean brass in our shop during processing and it would turn tarnished brass in to purdy brass fairly quickly. Or pink brass if ran too long. The reason the brass would turn pink is that the citric acid would leach the tin out of the brass. The same principal could be used in the event of a glow plug shortage.  I mixed the lemme shine in a 5 gallon bucket and added the lemme shine until I raised the Ph a couple points. I then added this to the tumbler, cement mixer, which already had lots of water in it and ran for a limited amount of time.

I found a neat video of the lighter I referred to in my previous post. My dad had the lighter in this video and I had the pocket warmer which was mostly good at spilling and causing chemical burns on my leg. The process the lighter uses is exactly the same as the ignition in the model airplane engine. Once running there is no need for current to be passed through the coil and the chemistry takes over.



Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Mark wood

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Re: blank
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2021, 07:17:30 AM »
Mark, my success is also due to cleaning glow plug coils coated with castor oil, some that has thickened.  I have and use simple green all the time.  It is probably the best cleaner overall to own.  It will clean oil off parts if its not too thick or dried.  I appreciate the idea of using lemon juice.  The next plugs I clean that won't glow, I will soak them in lemon juice.   A PH chart with substances will give a list of things that will clean whatever you have dirty.

I'm fairly certain I'm not communicating very well or there is a lack of understanding of the chemistry occurring. Glowing when connected to a battery is a different action than glowing from a catalytic reaction. Connecting to a battery causes current to flow through the wire which in turn causes heat due to the power dissipation. If the glow plug doesn't glow when connected to the battery, the problem is the wire is broken. That the glow plug glows does not mean it will, in fact, run the engine reliably.

Once running, the ignition process is the catalytic chemical reaction of the oxygen, methanol and platinum interaction. The platinum "catches"  a methanol molecule and aligns it such that an electron is freed. This free electron can then interreact with other molecules and support the oxidation of the entire mixture, it is the spark side of the fire triangle so to speak. As the element ages the surface binds with other elements, such as oxygen or nitrogen causing oxides and nitride to form. These new surface molecules change the surface charge and interrupt the catalytic reaction due to the new charge arrangement not "attracting" the free methanol molecules. The ignition stops. Take a close look at the wire when diagnosing engine problems and if the wire has a white hue to it, the element is done. The element should look shiny bright sliver. 

This layer is generally what is responsible for the loss in performance of the glow plug. In order to restore operation of the element that layer would have to be removed. It may be possible to mechanically clean the layer using a scotch bright of other means. Etching is a potential method and the agent would need to target the oxide or nitride, depending on what has formed, each of which has a different binding potential and either acid or base would be required. The acid within the chlorinated cleaner is likely responsible for this if it is indeed happening.

A layer of choke might also be responsible, as in what would be from castor oil, but the high temperatures during operation would generally burn these off. Choke forms in relatively low temperatures as compared to the combustion temperatures, high enough to crack the hydrocarbon but not high enough to cause it to burn.  It's likely that there is some fraction of the "dead" plugs will suffer this ailment and and will "repair" with a simple soaking. Choke can be identified fairly readily and most modelers using castor oil are familiar with it. It's the black chunky stuff.

Then there is the high likelihood of plugs which have been changed as a diagnostic which truly didn't need to be changed. As an observer and totally ignored nerd, I have seen at least 30%-40 of plugs swapped without good reason. I've gotten used to this and simply watch. There is likely a high percentage of discarded plugs in this category and with todays prices for plugs makes it worth it to pick them all up.
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline peabody

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Re: blank
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2021, 06:50:20 PM »
I've used Thundervolt RC longs for years.
The only issue is the little thing that sticks down breaks off when I bounce a landing...

Offline Mark wood

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Re: blank
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2021, 07:13:27 PM »
Mark, I understand and your last paragraph accounts for a lot.  A good glow plug can be blamed for other issues.   A cold plug with low nitro, poor mixture adjustment, air leak, low compression, etc.   Also, detonation material can melt to the element.  I agree with your post.

My only message to the group is to try cleaning glow plugs as it can save money.

Yeah, I figure and I'm just going way over the edge into ubergeekdom because these things fascinate me. I know I bore people.
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: blank
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2021, 07:54:16 PM »
   I have had OK luck with Fox plugs when I found a good one.

     Brett
  The Fox black body hot plug, idle bar with the round ball on top part # 4208, white card with orange writing is a good plug. The first hot plugs Fox made with the silver body where garbage.
Al

Offline qaz049

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Re: blank
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2021, 03:10:14 AM »
Attached is a copy of an article recently published in the British Aeromodeller magazine on the Taylor brand of glowplugs, by the gentlemen Chas Taylor himself. These plugs were known for their ruggedness in Speed and B Class Team Racing events. Turns out that there were no secret ingredients, just quality materials.

Interestingly the fuel brew that Taylor and his partner devised for the B Class Team Racer and optimised for maximum speed, range, and hot restarts, contained zero % Methanol.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2021, 05:10:45 AM by qaz049 »


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