GETTING STARTED IN CL FOR LESS

[LARRY RICE]

     I am NOT looking at selling these to you, I ONLY sell to dealers, not to the public.
     I have always felt that what Control Line needed was a simple model to build that would fly good, and in the right hands would even stunt, and be a low cost to the beginner.
     What does the beginner need?
1- Model Kit
2- All of the Hardware and Wheels
3- Engine
4- Fuel Tank and Fuel Lines
5- Propeller
6- Glow Clip
7- Control Handle and Lines
8- Model Cement and Sandpaper

     Well Black Hawk Models is offering just that. Yes it is a .049 and all of the above for $50.00 it is a real good place for the beginner to get started. Cox Engine and Propeller, Brodak Fuel Tank, Perfect Glow Clip, Sig Model Cement, and Sullivan Fuel Line. The kit with a heradage of Walt Musciano design is a provin flyer.
      Again I am NOT looking to sell these to you but we need to get them into the hands of beginners and those returning to the hobby. Our hope is that this will get people started in this wonderful hobby and that they will go on to enjoy several other hobby kits. It took us months of dealing to get this price down to where a beginner could afford it, but now with this kit all he needs is paint, battery and fuel.
Larry

[Tim Wescott]

Good idea, looks like good execution, not a bad price at all.  Good work, particularly if it's paying for itself!

If I were going to add anything, it would be that you look into an electric version.  Cox engines sometimes take a lot of flogging to run, fuel smells, it's noisy, you have to _find_ high nitro fuel, etc., etc.

If you could stand the thought of sourcing the electrics from Taiwan, and you could hit a price point that was even $10 or $20 higher, a "flick the switch and fly" airplane may have some appeal -- and kids would be a lot less likely to get run off of an urban playground for flying an electric.

[Marvin Denny]

Larry, If I wanted to get one or two of these, where would I look first?  Lew Woolard?  LHS?  Brodak's?

  Bigiron

[Larry Fulwider]

You might consider a different picture -- one with controls in place. A beginner might take the picture literally, and wonder how it goes up and down.

       Larry Fulwider

[LARRY RICE]

To Bigiron,
     Only Black Hawk Models Authorized dealers carry our kits, a complete list is at  WWW.BLACKHAWKMODELS.COM . I do not know who Lew Woolard is but Our Dealers are listed on our web site or you can call Sam's Stuff and Hobbies at (573) 255-3514 or Boone's Hobbies at (562)-708-0653. Boone's Hobbies has several kits, Brodak has not ordered any yet.

Larry Fulwider
     If the controls were on this model they would not show as they are under the wing and elevator. The box label and instructions gives clear pictures and descriptions. For the most part controls and fuel tanks are not shown on photos for commercial use as they distract from the models appearance.

Tim,
     The idea of this project was to keep the price low, the model simple to build and fly and be directed towards youngsters. Putting electric would have defeated all three of these purposes. 1-Electric cost more, 2-the model would need to be lighter and therefore more complex and 3-Batteries are charged in an automobile that most kids do not own.

Larry

[john e. holliday]

I think the great Jim Walker stated that his Firebaby was mostly a give away as he made very lttle money.  It was the Firecat and others that made the money.  Glad someone is trying to get beginners started.  Thanks to you Larry and your group we have that.

[EddyR]

I agee with Larry Fulwider you need to show it as it is ready to fly. Many of the add's years ago were drawings that showed the model flying off into the clouds.
Ed

[LARRY RICE]

     Thank You for your input but ... I have looked over every known manufacture of model aircraft in a search to see who would put the models hardware in the pictures and while I found a few push rods the VAST, VAST majority from Berkeley to Brodak do not show the hardware. The reason is that it clutters the picture and detracts from the model. If it is a newcomer he would not know what he is looking at anyway and if it is not a newcomer he knows that he will need to put the controls on. So what is the point? If anything a newcomer would be more confused at seeing the workings of the aircrft then he would understand them.
     Black Hawk Models features several models built bu customers and when they show the hardware we leave it in place, but we do not put it on models that we build for display. 
Larry

[Tim Wescott]

Tim,
     The idea of this project was to keep the price low, the model simple to build and fly and be directed towards youngsters. Putting electric would have defeated all three of these purposes. 1-Electric cost more, 2-the model would need to be lighter and therefore more complex and 3-Batteries are charged in an automobile that most kids do not own.

Actually I was thinking of moms with checkbooks and an aversion to noise and smell when I made the suggestion.  Not to mention the completely irrational and probably erroneous impression that you'll be more likely to cut yourself up on a gas engine with a prop vs. an electric with the steak knives that work well on them.

I was also thinking of urban parks in the year 2010, and how long a couple of kids with a plane and an 049 would last before the cops showed up vs. the same pair of kids with a foamie and an electric engine.

But you are correct that the price would go up.  I don't know if you'd be able to make an all-balsa plane fly well with electrics, and if you did they wouldn't be cheap.  It may be that to make an electric control line beginner's plane it'd have to be one of those depron & carbon-fiber things -- and that's not what you do.

Personally I like airplanes that smell and make noise, but there's a significant potential market out there that shies away from them.

I will buy one of your kits one day, but for right now this is my favorite 1/2A model kit:

[LARRY RICE]

Tim,

     I am glad to see you are involved in the hobby too. Two years ago I hired a couple of guys to work out an electric control line model that would be a good trainer for clubs to use. We tested all sorts of balsa models in the 1/2a range. We even got some to fly ... sort of. Lots of money later we still did not have the answer .... well we had an answer but to was way to expensive for a club to invest in. The early models used folding props to protect little fingers, they didnot put out enough oomph. The outher problem was the lack of noise, everyone including control line fliers wandered into the circle unaware of a plane in the air. I gave up on the idea and went on a diet to recoup my losses and repay the company.
    About 4 years ago I wanted to start a flying club at the local parks. I had heard about cops and noise limits so I call the council woman, she checked with the city attorneys and guess what ... NO law against it or the noise. Next I went to the Parks and Rec. dept. and they were willing to sponsor a club, donate a building to use and provide assistance. Sometimes you just need to ask. Of course I know that not every city will be like Long Beach but you can not depend on rumors.

Thanks
Larry

[Larry Renger]

Larry, I think you are on a great track here.  One thing to consider recommending, is using water based Urethane clear paint for the finish.  The stuff from a can is incredibly fuelproof, the rattlecan stuff almost as good.  It is way cheaper than dope, more readily available and can be gotten in 4 oz cans and applied with disposable foam brushes (water cleanup with a bit of soap and the brush is easily saved for the next time).

If someone wants color, latex house paint will go over the Urethane and is also fuelproof!  Same water cleanup too.   

[minnesotamodeler]

Only suggestion I would make is: Use a sidewinder mount, it will save many a needle valve and will be less likely to tear the firewall off in an inverted crash or flipover.

[Posthole_digger]

latex house paint will go over the Urethane and is also fuelproof

I didn't think this was true.

Paul

[john e. holliday]

It is also very heavy even tho you can do with one coat.  Mr Meriwether used to use the stuff on combat and rat racers.

[Larry Renger]

It really isn't all that heavy if you thin it and only spray enough on to color cover.  Applied with a house painting brush would indeed present a problem. 

[Tim Wescott]

Tim,

     I am glad to see you are involved in the hobby too. Two years ago I hired a couple of guys to work out an electric control line model that would be a good trainer for clubs to use. We tested all sorts of balsa models in the 1/2a range. We even got some to fly ... sort of. Lots of money later
...

This is odd, and something I don't understand -- you can (apparently, I haven't tried it!) shove an electric motor into a 35 or bigger sized plane and it all works nice, yet the little 049 sized planes just don't seem to fly right.  Yet you can do the same with RC and everything is hunky-dory.

I know that five or ten years ago Dick Sarpoulis published one or two designs for small electric CL -- but he had to go to foam to get the weight down.  It worked because he got less vibration.

But building with foam is a whole different discipline, and crashing with a heavy battery and foam is a lot different from crashing with a solid balsa plane.  One of those slab sided planes will fly all day with a crash at the end of every flight, as long as you bring a bottle of thin CA to the field with you.  You can't really do that with foam, even with foam and foam-safe CA.

[CircuitFlyer]

Five or ten years ago that may have been true.  I've recently electrified a couple of SIG all balsa 1/2a kits that are very robust and fly really well.  The electric power package weighs 1/2oz (18 grams) more than my Cox reed valve motor.  Power output is probably better than a Cox Black Widow.  I also have some older Carl Goldberg models that I'm going to bolt on the electric setup and fly at the ball park around the corner.  There are some new electric 1/2a airplane kits on the market and I hope more are to come.  Electric costs more for sure, but, hobby shops should be aware of the availability and convenience of electric when making recommendations to beginners. 

[Dennis Adamisin]

I really get a kick out of the Blackhoawk Models line-up and think this package deal is a great deed.

Paul:
I see this is your second post on SH so - WELCOME to the forum.   

My experience developing the 1/2A system for Brodak echos exactly what you said.  The biggest problem Ihave had is that the electric motor is much lighter than a reedie - so I've had some trouble hitting the CG.  Ireonically enought this is the opposite of the problem folks had when they took models design for older 1/2A engines (like Cubs) and switched them over to long reedie engines.



Total installed weight tends to be a little higher but that has not been a bid deal.  Engine performance is fair more repeatable too.  I think the 1/2A electric is more beginner friendly than a smaLL IC engine.  There is room for optimization too; I just finished up an electric Brodak (Goldberg) Swordsman 18 that weighs 4.25oz RTF - that ain't bad! 

I think the expense is getting better all the time, if you want to direct-order from people like Hobby City in China, the component costs really plummet,  the guys flying foamie combat models (larger but simiilar weight to a typical CL 1/2A) are powering up for under $50

[Tim Wescott]

I'd like to know the setup to replace a Cox Reedie with electric.  Rather than pull Larry's announcement even more off topic, I've asked the question here: http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=16993.0.

[LARRY RICE]

    I am quite certain that Electric will work on a half-A model and with the right model it will perform very well. I can recommend a few models that we produce that would adapt to electric and be fun to fly. Our work was directed towards the lowest cost project to be available to those with a very limited budget. In order to get the cost of out electric plane down we were working with the brush type motor, this eliminates the added electrics to start and stop the motor. We also, wanting this to be club friendly, looked at a battery on the pilot so that 10 kids could fly in less that a 24 hour period and without buying a truck load of batteries. I am NOT against electric, it just does not fill the bill for what we are trying to do.

 "The idea of this project was to keep the price low, the model simple to build and fly and be directed towards youngsters. Putting electric would have defeated all three of these purposes. 1-Electric cost more, 2-the model would need to be lighter and therefore more complex and 3-Batteries are charged in an automobile that most kids do not own."
(quoted from above)

Larry

[john e. holliday]

I'd like to know the setup to replace a Cox Reedie with electric.  Rather than pull Larry's announcement even more off topic, I've asked the question here: http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=16993.0.

Dennis A. has a very good set up over there in the electric forum.  Also Brodak has an electric set-up package for 1/2A's that should work.  Been wanting to get one myself to start the learning curve of electric but, the wife and grand kids keep spending the money.