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Author Topic: Fuel tank question  (Read 2043 times)

Offline Gary Dowler

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Fuel tank question
« on: July 05, 2019, 12:02:44 PM »
Should have included this in my trim question thread, but forgot.
Shortly after Paul flew my Ringmaster I changed tanks. The 3.5oz tank was far more than needed, so I got a 2.25 oz uniflow from Brodak. Seems to be fine, but there is one nagging issue. At the start of any outside loop, just in about the first 45-60 deg of the initial downward turn, there is a very noticeable drop off of engine power. It recovers quickly by about 90deg into the turn, but it never did this with the old tank.  I'm stumped.

Gary
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Offline bob whitney

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2019, 12:16:14 PM »
pull the back off of the tank and check the tube locations .there has been some problems with the tanks they had made in China
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Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2019, 01:43:28 PM »
pull the back off of the tank and check the tube locations .there has been some problems with the tanks they had made in China
So what would I look for? I know how uniflow plumbing works, but I'm trying to picture what would cause such a condition.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2019, 01:47:23 PM »
So what would I look for? I know how uniflow plumbing works, but I'm trying to picture what would cause such a condition.

Pick-up tube placed too far toward the outside bottom of the tank.  It should be in the back outside corner, and the vent should be forward of it (and maybe inside) enough that bubbles from the vent don't go into the pickup.

For that matter, if you've got vent and pickup swapped it could cause odd behavior, but I think it would be worse than what you're seeing.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2019, 02:54:09 PM »
pull the back off of the tank and check the tube locations .there has been some problems with the tanks they had made in China
I had one with the pickup soldered to the floor of the tank about 1/2" in.  Had another with the Uniflow tube being longer than the pickup.  Don't use metal tanks any more on my IC's

Ken
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Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2019, 05:33:30 PM »
Looks like I'm opening the tank up for a little inspection.

Gary
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Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2019, 06:15:18 PM »

Here is what I found. Looks like the vent line is too far from the pick up line to me.  Top is to the left.

Gary
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2019, 06:41:29 PM »
This is why I build my own tanks.  I'm not entirely sure why it should do what you described, unless the vent is being uncovered and richening up the mixture.  The vent should be about 1/4" forward of the pickup, centered up & down in the tank.
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Offline bob whitney

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2019, 07:11:50 PM »
Also the motor feed tube is not centered top to bottom
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2019, 07:14:12 PM »
Looks like I'm opening the tank up for a little inspection.

Gary
Tim is correct as to the location.  I usually bevel the uniflow tube about 45 degrees and solder it to the pickup about 1/4" from the end.  If you are going to use it I would also center the pickup.  It also looks like the uniflow tube is crimped at the bend.  Personally I have never gotten very fond of uniflow.  I use simple pressure the old fashion way. Tube from the top to the bottom to fill, bottom to the top for overflow.  Both as close to the inside front wall of the tank as possible.  Cap the top and hook the bottom to the muffler pressure fitting or point it into the airflow ala 60's style.
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Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2019, 09:36:00 PM »
From my IC days, if found the following to give perfect runs and needle settings.

The uniflow pickup location should be:
Half way back in the tank.
Centered vertically in the tank
Soldered to the outboard wall of the tank.

Getting the uniflow too close to the fuel pickup creates needle setting issues.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2019, 04:14:30 AM »
Those cute yellow caps have been found to be NOT trustworthy. A short piece of fuel hose with a BB forced into one end is a good option. A piece of fuel hose with a screw stuck in it is NOT always leak free, and it must be a good seal.   y1  Steve
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2019, 06:09:23 AM »
From my IC days, if found the following to give perfect runs and needle settings.

The uniflow pickup location should be:
Half way back in the tank.
Centered vertically in the tank
Soldered to the outboard wall of the tank.

Getting the uniflow too close to the fuel pickup creates needle setting issues.


   I find this to work well with either metal or plastic tanks. Easy to assemble and set up.

   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
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Offline ericrule

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2019, 08:13:18 PM »
Just look at the picture and you can see the problem.
1) fuel pick up is not soldered in the wedge. Re-solder it in the middle of the wedge.
2) Uniflow tube is positioned higher than the middle of the pick up tube.

The engine "reads" the uniflow tube. The way it is positioned will cause the motor to drop the rpm as soon as you start into the maneuver.
Just put the two tubes in the proper place and you will solve the problem.

Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2019, 10:34:38 PM »
Eric, fuel pick up is now properly afixed to the center of the wedge. Uniflow vent will be improved some before reattaching the cap.

Gary
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2019, 10:36:42 PM »
Eric, fuel pick up is now properly afixed to the center of the wedge. Uniflow vent will be improved some before reattaching the cap.

Gary
   
   You need to solder the free end of the uniflow tube to something, either the wedge, or the pickup.

    Brett

Offline goozgog

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2019, 03:07:48 AM »
Keith Morgan

Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2019, 09:35:41 AM »
   
   You need to solder the free end of the uniflow tube to something, either the wedge, or the pickup.

    Brett
Will do.

Gary
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Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2019, 05:40:34 PM »
Innards of the tank are now where they belong, with the exception that the vent is a little further back from the pick up tube than the specified 1/4".  Probably closer to 7/16". This is because of the length of the tubes inside, and I just didn't want to get a new tube bents and soldered in. But beyond that, it's now in a more proper alignment with the pick up tube, which itself is properly centered in the wedge now.

Tomorrow will see flight tests.

Gary
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2019, 06:28:51 PM »
Innards of the tank are now where they belong, with the exception that the vent is a little further back from the pick up tube than the specified 1/4".  Probably closer to 7/16".

   Paul said "halfway", which is more like an inch and half than 1/4", but it's not very critical with a tank that is not tapered in planform.

     Brett

Offline bob whitney

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2019, 06:29:23 PM »
I agree with Paul on the uni flo tube location
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Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2019, 11:02:43 PM »
better tank plumbing is in order, yes, but I became limited in what I could do. My old Weller soldering gun is not working properly. I was having a most difficult time with it trying to adjust the vent tube. I wanted to simply replace it With a properly shaped/located piece per the help I've received, but it became almost impossible to work with the thing.
I need a proper soldering iron for this stuff.   Attaching the pick up line to the wedge was done with a micro torch, as was reattaching the end cap when it went on. Used Heat Fence paste to prevent loosening of the pickup tube when resoldering the cap.
I have tried the micro torch before for soldering tubing, etc, but it doesn't work well for this purpose. So I didn't try.  Proper soldering tool will be forthcoming. I've used the Weller before and it worked fine. Not sure what's going on with it.

Gary
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Offline Robert Whitley

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2019, 12:05:01 AM »
Check that the nuts holding the tip are tight.
Also make sure the light bulb is screwed in and working.
Either of these will give intermittent or nonexistent heat.

Good luck

Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2019, 01:45:21 AM »
Check that the nuts holding the tip are tight.
Also make sure the light bulb is screwed in and working.
Either of these will give intermittent or nonexistent heat.

Good luck
Well, that was a quick fix! Robert, you nailed it.  No light on this model, and the tip felt tight, as did the screws, (had looked at this earlier) however I removed the tip anyway and simply reinstalled it.  Instant heat!!!!  Instead of 2 minutes to sort of work, it's now about 15 seconds to WOW! 
It's all fixed now. To bad I already put the tank back together.......🤣😂😬😬😬

Gary
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2019, 06:24:49 AM »
Well, that was a quick fix! Robert, you nailed it.  No light on this model, and the tip felt tight, as did the screws, (had looked at this earlier) however I removed the tip anyway and simply reinstalled it.  Instant heat!!!!  Instead of 2 minutes to sort of work, it's now about 15 seconds to WOW! 
It's all fixed now. To bad I already put the tank back together.......🤣😂😬😬😬

Gary
I think it has to do with corrosion forming between the set screws and the tip.  I have had that same problem and fixed it the same way a hundred times before throwing it away and getting a solid one.  One of the most frustrating things in life is having a soldering iron that gets hot enough to melt the solder but not enough to get it to flow - aggh. ~^

Ken
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 06:41:42 AM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2019, 03:12:33 PM »
Well, that was a quick fix! Robert, you nailed it.  No light on this model, and the tip felt tight, as did the screws, (had looked at this earlier) however I removed the tip anyway and simply reinstalled it.  Instant heat!!!!  Instead of 2 minutes to sort of work, it's now about 15 seconds to WOW! 
It's all fixed now. To bad I already put the tank back together.......🤣😂😬😬😬

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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2019, 05:22:37 PM »
Those Weller guns work by running low voltage high current through the tips -- they're basically a transformer with a handle.  Low voltage means that everything needs to stay low resistance -- but high temperatures mean oxidization, and oxidization means high resistance.

So, clean often.  Until you get tired of it, and then get an iron.
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Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2019, 07:02:02 PM »
It helps to visualize the forces on the fuel in the tank.

1. The "normal" condition - level horizontal flight at the basic 'altitude', 5 to 6 feet above ground, 'sees' the combination of "centrifugal" force and gravity. CF is around 3g horizontally outward. Gravity is (duh) 1g, vertically downward. The angle resulting force (resultant) is 3 units out and 1 unit downward. The combined force is the diagonal of a rectangle of those proportions: square root of (CF^2+G^2) = (3^2+1^2) = square root of 10, 3.16g. The number is approximate, but useful...

2. In inverted level flight, the same numbers apply but the "down" direction is inverted with the tank.

3. When maneuvering g are present, their action is added to the standard conditions. Corners are transient and of short duration. Round loops, both ways, last longer. All such turns generate CF of their shape, which we can consider full or partial circles. A long time ago, I arrived at around 10g for round loops and perhaps twice or more that as a reasonable guess for 'square' corners.

These forces are aimed like radii of the figure. Going through  the bottom of a low round loop, that approx 10g adds to the basic 1g - both forces aim vertically down.

At 45° line angle, the vertical effect of maneuver g is as Sin45° downward. Lift is also tilted 45°, so to hold altitude. Consider level flight at 45°: Total lift at that height  must equal level lift plus Sin45° to maintain  altitude.  Total wing lift, there, is more than level flight's 1g

Lift is generated  perpendicular to the wingspan. Maneuvering g loads also act perpendicular to the wingspan so are also tilted. Above 45° these tilts also apply. We pass through top dead center with maneuver load, if present, acting against wing lift, and the 'tilt' of the g load on fuel is vertically upward CF reduced by that 1g.

Cornering loads could be considered 'flat,' tangent to the flight hemisphere, because they are small compared to the hemisphere. E.g., in a corner up from level flight (away from the ground, not from the viewpoint of an imaginary pilot) the diagonal values of g load and lift increase load until the model is vertical, then slightly reduce it. The g required overwhelms any need to worry about lesser loads present.

At 45° similar brief transients occur. Over the top, the very brief duration pretty much allows us to go through on momentum and regain more standard conditions. This applies for wingovers and the top leg of the hourglass.

What has all this to do with tank venting? (That's where we started, right?)

First, think an open top 'fuel tank' with the fuel pickup rising vertically in it to the fuel surface. Some magical relationship exists between that level and the engine's fuel draw situation - most engines differ; aligning the fuel surface with some structural part of the engine may or may not give our desired 'run.' Once the 'magic relationship' location is found, raising the fuel surface (and pickup) will 'pour' fuel downhill to the 'system:' lowering the fuel surface (and pickup) below that point will require the engine to draw fuel 'uphill.'

Fuel surface high? Richens the run. Fuel surface low? Leans the run. Easy to understand, right?

The fuel surface determines the effect. With a uniflow tank setup, the end of the VENT TUBE inside the tank acts as the relevant fuel surface.  Think of the varying g conditions. For CLPA we want a consistent run "both ways'" which means for all g, attitude and height conditions, inside and outside load conditions. Yes, g loads will still have effect, but if they vary consistently "both ways," we can use it. Well, it HAS worked for 70 years plus...

Before I fly a new model, I check for a reasonably "correct" tank height. (My wig-wag test, many times explained here and on other sites.)

Basically:
 I hold the model wings vertical, outboard tip down. Start engine and set a 'just rich' run. (relevant fuel 'surface' effects easier to observe.) With fuselage level, roll the wings to about 45° 'pilot up' and watch for an RPM or sound change -note any such. Roll it about 45° 'pilot down' and check again. If there is a noticeable setting or RPM change, stop the engine (safest: nose vertically down, outboard tip up to uncover fuel pickup.) Adjust tank height: lower it from the richer position, or raise it from the leaner one. Run the same process again, until there's minimum change between the rolled positions.

It's not perfect or final, but should allow a safe first few flights while you fine tune the height to get the best tank height for that model. Warps and other structural details may (often do) require detail tweaking. At least, it should survive for you to do the tweaks!
   
\BEST\LOU

Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: Fuel tank question
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2019, 07:10:30 PM »
OBTW, making metal tanks with the uniflo vent end a known distance from top or bottom of the shell is not the important operating factor, but it helps us move the reference location (uniflow vent inside end) more knowledgeably.

I've made a few tanks where the shape was NOT vertically symmetrical, but the uniflo vent was correct. and they ran properly.

I do solder the pickup to the tank vertex wall and the uniflow vent usually to the pickup at the same height, just inboard, at half height and 1/4" to 3/4" forward of the pickup end.

Works!
\BEST\LOU


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