Finnish Solution for a Tesla With a Bad Battery

[phil c]

This is flying, but not like we do.

Go here to see it.  Cut and paste to avoid and problems with your browser.



The owner apparently was greatly tick off by an original battery that failed shortly after the warranty had expired.  I suspect a some folks here have had a similar problem.

Actually a pretty interesting look into a relatively(fortunately) booming expansion project!

[Tim Wescott]

Mercedes-Benz, bless their hearts, are working on making their batteries serviceable, and on training people in rebuilding packs.

Apparently it can be done, with great care and moderately invasive procedures (you're working on something that has voltages of several hundred volts, and there's one step where you have to saw through the glue that holds the lid onto the "sealed" pack).

Their packs are designed to be modular, so you can replace bad modules (if not bad individual cells ), and they're thinking that servicing the packs would be something that would be done on a regional level -- sort of like the level of specialization you need for a transmission shop, or an automotive machine shop.

Hopefully it can be done -- right now dealing with the end-of-life issues of battery packs is the biggest Achilles heel of electric vehicles.

[John Hammonds]

I don't know about goings on in the US Tim but at least in the UK there are a number of companies who already provide upgrades for existing models using modern battery packs in old (10 yr) EV's to bring the range back to better than new. They also repair and rebuild packs from those taken out of older vehicles as a cheaper option for "City Cars". There are also companies who are providing old (Reconditioned)  auto battery packs for the domestic "Off grid" housing market where the loads are less demanding.

TTFN
John.
 

[Tim Wescott]

I don't know about goings on in the US Tim but at least in the UK there are a number of companies who already provide upgrades for existing models using modern battery packs in old (10 yr) EV's to bring the range back to better than new. They also repair and rebuild packs from those taken out of older vehicles as a cheaper option for "City Cars". There are also companies who are providing old (Reconditioned)  auto battery packs for the domestic "Off grid" housing market where the loads are less demanding.

TTFN
John.

Man, I should check in to that.  Probably 98% of the miles I put on my car are trips of less than 100 miles, even though I live out in "the country" (quotes on purpose -- I know of only one of my neighbors who actually supports her family with her crops, and less than half of the properties around me grow any crops or livestock at all).  We could get by just fine with one or two electric cars as long as there's at least one gas vehicle on the property for long trips.

[Dan McEntee]

  Not meaning to hijack the thread, but I'm too lazy to search out an earlier one! I read recently that they have been testing a way to recycle used wind mill blades. They cut them up, then grind them up, and feed that into the furnaces used in making cement. If that works out, at least they won't be filling up landfills at an alarming rate. The left over ash (if any) can be put into the concrete mix. The process will add to polluting the atmosphere, I believe, which takes more away from windmills being "green" in my view, but at least they will be used up.
  Type at you later
  HAPPY NEW YEAR,
   Dan McEntee

[Bill Ervin]

Hi Dan, I thought wind turbines (blades and all) self-destruct on their own like every cassette tape from every Mission Impossible episode I watched as a kid.

[phil c]

You can "google" tags such as "ecar battery replacement", ecar battery rebuilding, etc.

There are quite a few successful people testing batteries and replacing the bad cells with good cells fro similar batteries.  Tesla uses specially designed batteries and makes them, so there aren't any substitutes if a cell goes bad.  You need cells from another battery- and apparently Tesla is not of much help at all.

Toyota did a lot of engineering on the hybrid models to minimize damage to the battery cells.  They built in effective cooling.  The batteries are cycled at mid-capacity~ 40-65%.
Other brands initially used kinda slapped together systems for battery only.   The batteries didn't last very long because of the hard usage.  They've since come up with much less stressed systems to keep the batteries working past the warranty period and also some hybrids, which don't have the range issues an all electric has.

Then there's Chevrolet that started making batteries for the Bolt.  They've had huge safety recalls from batteries malfunctioning.  Apparently, with some luck, they may avoid going bankrupt on it.

That's all stuff I've found just browsing around.  There is lots still going on.

But the topline result is that you hybrid car can probably be kept safely in service for many years.

[Howard Rush]

My first Prius has more than 200K miles on it.  It's still going strong after many Nats trips, and is now in the hands of a niece.  So far, so good on the second Prius and the electric car.  These cheap-to-run machines have enabled me to go to a lot of contests.

[wwwarbird]

 Something I keep wondering about, but never hear come up...

 Let's just say that as of tomorrow 25% of all road vehicles, worldwide, are solely electric powered. The batteries don't last forever, what's the "green" disposal plan?

[pmackenzie]

Something I keep wondering about, but never hear come up...

 Let's just say that as of tomorrow 25% of all road vehicles, worldwide, are solely electric powered. The batteries don't last forever, what's the "green" disposal plan?

The same thing that happens with Lead/acid batteries now - very efficient recycling.

[Jim Svitko]

The same thing that happens with Lead/acid batteries now - very efficient recycling.

I have wondered about recycling the lithium batteries.  Can it be done economically?  For that matter, is it economically feasible to recycle the lead-acid batteries?  I assume it was at one time but that may not be the case these days due to new battery technology taking over.

[Jim Svitko]

https://www.motorious.com/articles/features-3/uk-eliminating-car-ownership/

[Dan McEntee]

Has anyone followed the process of disposing of a unwanted lipo battery by putting the batter in a bucket of salt water?  That is an amazing site to see.  I can tell you that you DO NOT want to get that water on you after it dies down.   Disposing of that water has to be tough on the environment too.  If you could save it; it might be good for fire ant beds and weed killing.

   Well, as mentioned, there are some that are working at repairing and rebuilding bad batteries, but as far as I know, there is no way to recycle the materials. When I worked at the hobby shop, and Lithium batteries first came out, we got a bulletin about the procedure to dispose of lithium batteries. Like yo mention, you pretend it's a vampire, and drive a wooden stake through it's heart ( and they specifically mentioned to NOT use anything metallic or conductive) and then soak in a heavy salt water solution. Then they were supposed to be able to dispose of in regular trash and safe for land fills. As for lead acid batteries, they are still recyclable and in demand for this because of the restrictions and outright bans on mining new lead. The demand for lead acid batteries of all kinds is still very high and used in a lot more than car starting batteries. I had a large collection of bad 12 volt power panel batteries, and when I turned them in I think I got a few bucks a piece for them. Better that throwing them away!
  Type at you later and
   HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
   Dan McEntee

[Steve Helmick]

I'd rather have seen them pour a drum of kerosene on it and just let it burn. Less noise pollution that way.

Recently saw that somebody transplanted a turbo-diesel engine into a Tesla so they could "roll coal".  Steve

[Howard Rush]

Recently saw that somebody transplanted a turbo-diesel engine into a Tesla so they could "roll coal".

I consulted with Norm McFadden about making a coal roller out of the old Prius.  No need for a whole engine-- just a burner and a tank of diesel. The difficulty would be getting out in front of the rollee with the Prius's acceleration. 

[John Rist]

I understand hybrids. They still burn gas.  But where is all the electricity coming from to charge all electric cars? Burn coal, natural gas, oil ?  It may work some day but not yet.   

[Istvan Travnik]

Translation:
"Do you see that browncoal powerplant? That is the outlet of Daddy's new electric car!"

Added info: "Greens Party" enforced to close nuclear powerplants in Germany (3 still in 2021, and all of them till the end of 2024), and Germany had to build up some new browncoal powerplants, because the sun does not shine at night, wind is not blowing always, and there is not enough natural gas for powerplants.

[PerttiMe]

You would think Tesla would make things right rather than suffer that embarrassment.

As I understood that case, somebody NOT APPROVED BY TESLA had worked on the car before the guy bought it. And then it needed something that only Tesla can do. The bill for that, including undoing all the non-authorized work, was more than the car is worth.

[Dennis Adamisin]

I think this guy was just prepping his Tesla for Concours - you know, the "Best Finnish" award...

[John McFayden]

Should have used ThunderPower 

[buzzplane]

The physics of electrical power of anything , cars, planes, whatever,  is just not there yet and most likely will not be there in the near future. You can not change the Laws of physics. The carbon footprint is not smaller, in fact it's bigger that a gas powered car. The total efficiency is also not better then a gas powered car if you take the calculation front a electron  and a gallon of fuel and based on potential energy. It's just nonsense and a political push from the lobbyists in congress. CO2 levels are at a 27 year low because of the efficiency of our modern gas engines and power generation plants,  and btw just about every carbon burning machine. We are at a level of 400 to 500 PPM globally currently based on NOAA data which is the most reliable by far.  Our global Green house functions the best at 1000 PPM, so no issue with CO2. Methane is our current issue to focus on as far as Global Temperatures not CO2. How do I know well I'm a Engineering and a physicist and can't be bullshitted by politicians or a lobbyist group in Washington. The folks that are purchasing electric cars will be very unhappy when they start replacing batteries. As this market ages there will a lot of pissed off people around.

[Istvan Travnik]

Buzzplane,
You are not alone filled up with idiot politicians in the States.
As that graphic joke says, Germany, being in leader position in Europe made more idiotic measurements in recent years...

[Steve Helmick]

The physics of electrical power of anything , cars, planes, whatever,  is just not there yet and most likely will not be there in the near future. You can not change the Laws of physics. The carbon footprint is not smaller, in fact it's bigger that a gas powered car. The total efficiency is also not better then a gas powered car if you take the calculation front a electron  and a gallon of fuel and based on potential energy. It's just nonsense and a political push from the lobbyists in congress. CO2 levels are at a 27 year low because of the efficiency of our modern gas engines and power generation plants,  and btw just about every carbon burning machine. We are at a level of 400 to 500 PPM globally currently based on NOAA data which is the most reliable by far.  Our global Green house functions the best at 1000 PPM, so no issue with CO2. Methane is our current issue to focus on as far as Global Temperatures not CO2. How do I know well I'm a Engineering and a physicist and can't be bullshitted by politicians or a lobbyist group in Washington. The folks that are purchasing electric cars will be very unhappy when they start replacing batteries. As this market ages there will a lot of pissed off people around.

"Methane is our current issue to focus on as far as Global Temperatures not CO2."

Am I the only one thinking that this is why the price of meat has gone up by about 50% in the last year? Trying to get us to avoid real meat in favor of "Wonder Burger" and "Wonder Chicken", so ranchers and farmers can reduce their herds and flocks to reduce methane emissions. Seems like a plot to me, but not sure who is doing the plotting. Probably involves a huge amount of undeclared graft, though.     Steve

[Dan McEntee]

"Methane is our current issue to focus on as far as Global Temperatures not CO2."

Am I the only one thinking that this is why the price of meat has gone up by about 50% in the last year? Trying to get us to avoid real meat in favor of "Wonder Burger" and "Wonder Chicken", so ranchers and farmers can reduce their herds and flocks to reduce methane emissions. Seems like a plot to me, but not sure who is doing the plotting. Probably involves a huge amount of undeclared graft, though.     Steve

     And don't forget termites!! I read a newspaper article a few years ago about some research lab getting a huge grant to study termite farts!! And no I'm not kidding!

   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[PerttiMe]

Some farmers have started using methane from their cows as a local energy source.

[phil c]

I have wondered about recycling the lithium batteries.  Can it be done economically?  For that matter, is it economically feasible to recycle the lead-acid batteries?  I assume it was at one time but that may not be the case these days due to new battery technology taking over.

I see lead recycling of over the hill batteries at nearly every do-it-yourself parts shop, every dealer, and all the big box stores.
It avoids lead pollution and it does make the millions of lead/acid batteries economical to use.